181 replies to this topic

[Asym]

An Innocent Urbie, on 25 August 2017 - 06:13 AM, said:

nine out of ten this is what a LURMER will say

OK, reality check: MWO doesn't live in the real world..... It is a game; and, a silly game at that and getting goofier by the year. "Hint: think Solaris......" FP will cease to exist when that happens.

Think about this: Mechs are running with some pretty darn sophicated armor. That armor takes energy and kinetic damage and survives. ERLL, Gauss, UAC's, PPC's etc.... can damage that armor and it takes several hits to destroy that armor.... A lot of all forms of energy is necessary.....

Then. take MG's....... a single kinetic bullet. Ever see a 7.62 round strike AR500 steel? The bullet doesn't even scratch the surface....... How is it, in the far future where MWO lives, a MG bullet, no matter how many could even scratch this armor? Hmmmmmm????? Let alone kill un-damage rear armor in less than 1 minute?

Hey guys, this is a game of make believe and some of us "just can't make believe that this level of illogic exists." How do you template "magical properties" to determine tactics or create strategies if weapons routinely defy the laws of science every other month???? Or, weapons you own are now, magically incapable of the damage or ranges just two days earlier they were capable of?

The reason the light community loves their invincibility and "super OP weapons" is that if reality somehow is re-inserted back into MWO, the light roles revert from killer mini-assaults and aplha strike one shot killers back to scouts, artillery observation and spotting and anti-light flank and rear area protection....... Now, how boring is that !!!

LRM boats and the a large portion of the MWO community are tired of MG's being "terminal effect weapons" that in reality, just aren't that effective in real life........ A game yes. A silly game yes.... People leaving a silly game that is getting even more silly, you betcha ! At some point, there won't be enough left and we should be encouraging their return vis-a-vis driving them off....

Just my opinion.

[Vonbach]

Its not the machine guns that are op Its clan lights running around at 120kph plus boating 6 to 8 of the things.
It needs to get nerfed.

Edited by Vonbach, 27 August 2017 - 07:32 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Well I did say there would be a big reaction to MG builds.

It's not the weapon it's the number of hard points.

Wondering if P.G.I will develop Ghost Damage for more than 4 MG's mounted as a balance aid

[C E Dwyer]

Zoeff, on 24 August 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I remember on a recent NGNGtv stream that Chris Lowrey was being somewhat surprised that I mentioned LMG's as a point of interest for future balancing.

I do wonder how this is going to pan out in the long run though. Perhaps people will catch on the uses of the new machinegun tech and we'll see more and more of them? If that happens a balance pass might affect them at some point in the not-so near future? Hmm...

Question is why are you surprised that Chris Lowery is surprised.

He's the dude that though the new tech tree was going to virtually eliminate the need for quirks..

so um...

Yeah..not surprised at all.

[MagicIndex]

NERF MG's, NERF LAZER VOMIT, NERF DAKKA, NERF LURMS... etc. Can we NERF the "nerfers" into oblivion? PGI please! Give us DISLIKE BUTTON!

[Asym]

Im not sure I'm responding to nerfing anything. A nerf is when you reduce something's effectiveness.... MG's are mis-applied damage that is inconsistant with the concept of enhanced mech armor....

MG's never should be able to attrit MWO armor that is un-damaged..... Damaged mechs, where the energy and kinetic weapons designed to defeat that armor have removed a vast majority of that armor, is another topic.... MG's on their own logically could not defeat un-damage armor.... Point blank illogical......

Now, does anyone know the diameters of the light, normal and heavy mg's? Are they say, less than a 20mm??? How is it a light MG can shoot farther than a heavy MG? Take the 7.62 effective range and the 12.7 effective range as an example.... the 50 cal shootes fastly further with a larger round.... Why is MWO different?

Maybe, the term MG itself is causing confusion...... machine, chain or Gaitlin guns all operate on different principles...

can anyone out there help me out?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Asym, on 27 August 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

MG's never should be able to attrit MWO armor that is un-damaged..... Damaged mechs, where the energy and kinetic weapons designed to defeat that armor have removed a vast majority of that armor, is another topic.... MG's on their own logically could not defeat un-damage armor.... Point blank illogical......

Why? Because future bullets. Unless you have the technical specs for the armours, structures and munitions used in the BattleTech universe?

[B0oN]

roboPrancer, on 25 August 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

Except 250 is only the optimal range, they can still get crits and do decent damage out to about 450m, still with no heat and very little ammo cost.

Then stay out at 500+ with your ERLL´s or LPL´s .
Geez, is that so hard ?

[Vonbach]

Jay Leon Hart, on 27 August 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

Why? Because future bullets. Unless you have the technical specs for the armours, structures and munitions used in the BattleTech universe?

Its not magic bullets its because in the future they build tank armor out of paper mache.
Theres a reason they build tanks with one big gun instead of lots of little ones.
If you try a machine gun against a tank or even a light tank all your going to do
is flatten bullets on the armor.

[Razorfish]

Vonbach, on 27 August 2017 - 05:59 AM, said:

Its not the machine guns that are op Its clan lights running around at 120kph plus boating 6 to 8 of the things.
It needs to get nerfed.

This is the correct answer!

[GrimRiver]

Still waiting for proof that MG's are op.

I ran some straight MG builds and let me tell you, they did NOT do well.

MG's on their own just can't perform, just can't, they need the help from other weapons to even be effective and if MG's need help from other weapons then MG's aren't op.

ALL MG builds are running other weapons in conjunction, like lasers, ACs or missiles.

A weapon system is op if it performs too well on it's own, but if it needs help from other weapons then it isn't op.

Also there is very few mechs that can even boat MG's anyway, like 5 or 6 tops.
(counting 6 or more MG's)

[Vonbach]

The Shortbus, on 27 August 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

Then stay out at 500+ with your ERLL´s or LPL´s .
Geez, is that so hard ?

You don't play this game much do you? Ok I'll keep it simple 120 kph tiny sized
light mech vs a assault or heavy traveling about 60 kph. You actually have to hit
the things first. Its also hard to do when you have two lances of clan heavies and assaults
shooting at you. All of whom move 20 kph faster than you do. We also don't have vulture spat
boats to obliterate clan light mechs for us either.

[HammerMaster]

Battletech machine guns are NOT 7.62 mm.
"Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs"
These are gonna be 12.7 to 30 mm. A whole different animal.

[MadHornet]

It is fairly irritating being killed or disabled by machine guns, but it is unbelievably easy to kill them when you still have armor. Destroying just the arms of ACH's and MLX's removes 3/4 to nearly all of their capability.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Does anyone remember the march patch?

https://mwomercs.com...07-21-mar-2017/

Would we be seeing the same salt if PGI had not reduced overall component heath across the board and increased the crit chances?

Is this really a matter of machine guns being OP or is it that the flaws in the crit system changes are being exposed?

Personally, I'd rather see an increase to internal component health, but then I'm usually for anything that increases TTK.

[Cato Zilks]

Asym, on 27 August 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

Then. take MG's....... a single kinetic bullet. Ever see a 7.62 round strike AR500 steel? The bullet doesn't even scratch the surface....... How is it, in the far future where MWO lives, a MG bullet, no matter how many could even scratch this armor? Hmmmmmm????? Let alone kill un-damage rear armor in less than 1 minute?

MG's are supposed to be roughly equal to a GAU 8
https://en.m.wikiped...i/GAU-8_Avenger

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

Then. take MG's....... a single kinetic bullet. Ever see a 7.62 round strike AR500 steel? The bullet doesn't even scratch the surface....... How is it, in the far future where MWO lives, a MG bullet, no matter how many could even scratch this armor? Hmmmmmm????? Let alone kill un-damage rear armor in less than 1 minute?

According to Sarna.net, TT MGs do 2 dmg, just like an AC2, just at a much shorter range. It's much more likely that a mech MG is more like a.50 cal or higher, and not an AK-47 or an M-16. High-caliber machine guns have variant rounds made of depleted uranium or tungsten, which do awesome things to armor.

[Vonbach]

Judah Malganis, on 27 August 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

According to Sarna.net, TT MGs do 2 dmg, just like an AC2, just at a much shorter range. It's much more likely that a mech MG is more like a.50 cal or higher, and not an AK-47 or an M-16. High-caliber machine guns have variant rounds made of depleted uranium or tungsten, which do awesome things to armor.

Yes the make excellent noisemakers as they rattle and ping of the armor of a tank. The only reason a GAU-8 Avenger can hurt a tank at all is because its firing at the top and rear armor both of which are very thin and from an airplane.
If you used something like that on a tank against its front armor from the ground all it would do is scratch the paint.
Light vehicles use specialized anti-tank missiles to breach tank armor for a reason.

Edited by Vonbach, 27 August 2017 - 10:58 AM.

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

Yes the make excellent noisemakers as they rattle and ping of the armor of a tank. The only reason a GAU-8 Avenger can hurt a tank at all is because its firing at the top and rear armor both of which are very thin and from an airplane.
If you used something like that on a tank against its front armor from the ground all it would do is scratch the paint.
Light vehicles use specialized anti-tank missiles to breach tank armor for a reason.

Not saying 1 round will or should stop a mech, but I imagine hundreds of rounds hitting the same area of the mech would eventually crack through the armor, which I don't know if you play mgs in-game, but it takes thousands of rounds to break through the a front section of a heavy or assault if you're not using anything else to damage the armor, even at the most optimal ranges. The reason why they break through the back so quickly is because the armor is low there and players are usually using other weapons to help expose the internal structure.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 27 August 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Asym]

Vonbach, on 27 August 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Yes the make excellent noisemakers as they rattle and ping of the armor of a tank. The only reason a GAU-8 Avenger can hurt a tank at all is because its firing at the top and rear armor both of which are very thin and from an airplane.
If you used something like that on a tank against its front armor from the ground all it would do is scratch the paint.
Light vehicles use specialized anti-tank missiles to breach tank armor for a reason.

OK, OK......let's get back to the someplace we might agree on.

First, have you ever seen a GAU-8 fire or the actual weapon itself? It's longer than a car and weighs more than an average truck ! The GAU-8 kills armor with some really hi-tek ammo and depends on the AOA being above the target. GAU-8's have an effective range beyond 4000 yards............... MWO MG's operate from 100m to 500 meters: that's small arms engagement ranges.

You couldn't mount a single GAU-8 in a 25 ton mech..... The torque on 1 firing would be so great, the mech would turn.....

Yes, we're playing a game and we have all sorts of magical weapons..... Unfortunately, MG's must be really magical to only shoot 100 to 500 meters and destroy armor that a Gauss rifle can only moderately damage.......

A GAU-19 is effective to 1800 meters (12.7x99 ammo). They could be mounted into a turret........ 8 of them? Seriously? They are Gatling 1400 cyclic weapons ! Where would you store the vasts amount of ammo? And, they wouldn't do too much damage to the MWO armor either............ As 50 cal didn't do much to any tanks in ww2 from any angle......

So, rifle ammo based on the 100 to 500m range would do little of any significant damage.