43 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

As long as it's a 2-3 or 3-2 cap balance in conquest, there is usually plenty of time to do this magical thing called just killing 'mechs. I don't remember the exact amount of time but its in the ballpark of close to 10 min as long as one side doesn't have 4 caps.

Just doing my part to help keep this a great community of giant robot warrior pilots.

Happy winning

o7

Edited by Kin3ticX, 25 August 2017 - 04:19 PM.

[STEF_]

Have you talked with Slepnir?

[Kin3ticX]

Stefka Kerensky, on 25 August 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Have you talked with Slepnir?

What dat?

[Lykaon]

Also,the smaller the map the less the cap points matter. Even a Direwolf can get to any point on the map on mining collective in a few short moments.

So in puggie play ...

Grab the 2 closest caps to your spawn with the two fastest/closest mechs (this means if a Direwolf and a Marauder are equal distance from the closest cap send the Marauder it will rejoin faster)

After the first two closest caps are gotten if your mech does not move at least 120 kph CAPS ARE NOT YOUR PROBLEM!

At this point every mech in your drop that is not super fast should group up and push the contested capture point (frequently Theta on many maps) or the most likely point of enemy contact (on maps like Forest colony and mining collective it isn't always a cap point)

The very basic idea here is you have two cap points they have two cap points so no one has a clear advantage and each side must engage to win.

If you didn't scatter to the four corners of the map chasing cap points your team (minus one or two very fast lights) is advancing in a nice murderball formation towards the enemy. The enemy hopefully isn't as well organized and you overwhelm them before they get their mechs arrayed to defend from your attack.

[STEF_]

Kin3ticX, on 25 August 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

What dat?

Ah, well....Slepnir was (is?) a player. Few years ago, famous for fulfilling the match requirement, all match long (and piloting assaults only, btw).
So, the match was assault, you were sure he was going to cap enemy base, starting from 1 minute.
Conquest?
Right! He was going to cap only!!

And this, every single drop.

[Mcgral18]

Shoot robots


That's all you have to do

Worry about boxes after shooting robots

[qS Sachiel]

Most people (particularly light players) however, don't understand that the game modes are built to encourage engagements.
Yeah caps don't matter as much as kills (particularly in early game) but that doesn't mean you ignore them. The cap points concentrate enemy units.

Every time it's mining collective on HPG, light lance drops nearest epsilon, and heavies are dropping near Kappa.
The heavies and assaults start crawling to kappa, our lights completely ignore the early epsilon capture, and go off to facehug the assaults, while the enemy light lance captures opposite Epsilon, murders the few lights that are there from our side trying to secure it, then move on to rear-end the sheep which have balled at Kappa to make their last stand.

Get the early captures, especially if you are a light. You can catch up with the heavies later. They probably won't even be at their brawling destination before you capture and return.

THEN once you've got the early points or at least attempted a contest, you begin to fight in a central location or attack key/strong points.

killing the mechs is most important yes, but conquest mech movement is fundamentally different to a skirmish/domination movement on the majority of maps, and most people still seem to play sheep sheep. If you're going after the kills in 1 big ball while the enemy skirts around you, picking up caps and guaranteeing a late point victory then picking you apart from behind (as i commonly see) then you're doing it wrong.

[Kin3ticX]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

Shoot robots


That's all you have to do

Worry about boxes after shooting robots

I have found telling people to just kill mechs triggers them, so this is a slight of hand compromise of telling them effectively the same thing

[DAYLEET]

Kin3ticX, on 25 August 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

I have found telling people to just kill mechs triggers them, so this is a slight of hand compromise of telling them effectively the same thing

You kind of got lucky. When i tell em to not go side cap in anything else but light i get zero reaction.

[CraneArmy]

I'll add. I dont even think caps matter until a team breaks 350-400 points.

at which point, the team that didnt cap should be winning on mechs and can reclaim the caps anyway.

FW conquest plays a little differently, but in cq, early capping = loosing.

[Savage Wolf]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

Shoot robots


That's all you have to do

Worry about boxes after shooting robots

And that's the problem. Any good objective game mode requires you to do both, all the time. Like Conquest does in FW.

[Savage Wolf]

qS Sachiel, on 25 August 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

Most people (particularly light players) however, don't understand that the game modes are built to encourage engagements.
Yeah caps don't matter as much as kills (particularly in early game) but that doesn't mean you ignore them. The cap points concentrate enemy units.

Actually, only Domination is the only one that really encourages engagement. Skirmish doesn't encourage anything and Assault tries to encourage fighting but can fail so bad. Conquest actually encourages capping as a proper objective mode since the objectives are relevant whether you want it or not. In QP there just isn't enough time for it to matter. in FW there is.

No, what really encourages fighting, ignoring objectives and farming is the rewards system. Which is fine for combat modes, but not for objective modes.

I've also suggested we split the queues up so the combat players can have combat and the objective players can have objective play:
https://mwomercs.com...e-for-everyone/

[qS Sachiel]

Savage Wolf, on 25 August 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

Actually, only Domination is the only one that really encourages engagement. Skirmish doesn't encourage anything and Assault tries to encourage fighting but can fail so bad. Conquest actually encourages capping as a proper objective mode since the objectives are relevant whether you want it or not. In QP there just isn't enough time for it to matter. in FW there is.

No, what really encourages fighting, ignoring objectives and farming is the rewards system. Which is fine for combat modes, but not for objective modes.

I've also suggested we split the queues up so the combat players can have combat and the objective players can have objective play:
https://mwomercs.com...e-for-everyone/

I disagree.
The differences are subtle but there.

Domination of course encourages a centralisation of players.

Conquest encourages splitting up and light maneuvers, multiple flashpoints are likely especially early if you have smart lights that cap and skirmish, and then encourages centralised play in midgame.

Assault is basically skirmish but with a 'return home' or 'peel off mechs' alarm button (cap base early to bait out enemy in hopes of splitting forces, or cap base late to force enemy to engage you).

skirmish just encourages globs

Incursion works similarly to Assault in that it gives a return home function, but the turrets negate this ability for certain players / mechs, or at least make the option less sweet.

The effects of these game modes are all quite weak because they're mostly superficial (especially given the time limit as you mentioned) but they are there.

Returning to conquest:
on the majority of maps i can predict with pretty good certainty which points will be capped first, with what weight of mech. If a team can capitalise on that, have better skill or armament early and wipe out 2-4 light/mediums in the early caps, then the battle is most already won. Instead what i see on conquest is a return to pillowwarrior where everyone needs to be close to the assaults, early caps are ignored, and the team is surrounded while the window of opportunity to win on a late cap point advantage ever diminishes.

Again today on Mining Collective i saw the whole light lance plus two mediums race off to the assault drop point. The best part is, the assaults were afk, moved off the mark 10 seconds AFTER the lights had got there, and then the lights and mediums relegated themselves to being 60kph escorts in 12ton of armor.

Edited by qS Sachiel, 26 August 2017 - 12:00 AM.

[Xetelian]

I have just as much trouble getting people to fight mechs instead of capping (especially in their assault mechs) as I have getting people to cap and not solely fight in faction conquest.


I feel like a french fry in a sea of whole potatoes when I play quick play and quick play is 99% of what I play. I'm not saying I'm not a tier 2 potato but I sense the rest are just worse.

[Savage Wolf]

qS Sachiel, on 25 August 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Conquest encourages splitting up and light maneuvers, multiple flashpoints are likely especially early if you have smart lights that cap and skirmish, and then encourages centralised play in midgame.

Yes, there is a subtle hint of objective play in conquest even in QP. That's the beauty of conquest. However only to the point where it can be postponed for later.

qS Sachiel, on 25 August 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Assault is basically skirmish but with a 'return home' or 'peel off mechs' alarm button (cap base early to bait out enemy in hopes of splitting forces, or cap base late to force enemy to engage you).

I know that's how it was supposed to work, but it's entirely possible to cap without ever fighting and for the enemy team to be too far away to respond. That's why I suggested how to fix Assault to better encourage fighting:

https://mwomercs.com...x-assault-mode/

qS Sachiel, on 25 August 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

skirmish just encourages globs

Skirmish lacks anything that forces fighting. That's why it's viable to run and hide.

qS Sachiel, on 25 August 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Incursion works similarly to Assault in that it gives a return home function, but the turrets negate this ability for certain players / mechs, or at least make the option less sweet.

Incursion just needs rethinking before it works as either a combat mode or an objective mode. I do see potential as an objective mode.

qS Sachiel, on 25 August 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

The effects of these game modes are all quite weak because they're mostly superficial (especially given the time limit as you mentioned) but they are there.

Indeed, that's why I suggest objective modes are given their own queue with respawns so the objectives become the focus that they should in those modes. And then leave the combat modes for QP.

[meteorol]

but but but muh conquest is for cappingz!

/throws match

Edited by meteorol, 26 August 2017 - 12:48 AM.

[Lykaon]

CraneArmy, on 25 August 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I'll add. I dont even think caps matter until a team breaks 350-400 points.

at which point, the team that didnt cap should be winning on mechs and can reclaim the caps anyway.

FW conquest plays a little differently, but in cq, early capping = loosing.

This is assuming that the end result of the battle is your team has more than one or two badly mauled mechs left and you're only concern may be a solo enemy light mech.

But if the opposition takes caps and your team ignores caps and you do not convincingly win the attrition fight with enough mechs to uncap and retake the enemy caps you lost the game dispite winning the fight.

Since an effective murderball does not leave it's assault mechs trailing behind to be picked off a team has more than enough time to cap two points and regroup with the assault lance (as long as charlie lance doesn't go full potato and decide to split and cap).

From second one of a conquest match Charlie lance should be moving towards the most likely point of enemy contact. Bravo Lance should be forming up with Charlie ASAP and Alpha lance ( the fast lance) has capped and reformed with the assault lance well before the assaults have reached the point of contact.

And there is the added possibility that your opposition will waste resources uncapping your starting two cap points, diverting mech resources from the fight and further enforcing a numbers advantage.

It is always worth while to hold two cap points in conquest as long as you deployed your mech resources intelligently to get them.

Edited by Lykaon, 26 August 2017 - 01:40 AM.

[Appogee]

Mcgral18, on 25 August 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

Shoot robots

That's all you have to do

Worry about boxes after shooting robots

Nope. Nope. Nope.

I've seen teams lose a ton of matches - including twice just yesterday - because potatoes didn't worry about the cap points while they just shot robots. By the time they finished shooting robots, it was too late for them to cap enough points to overtake the enemy lead.

As the OP said, you need to maintain a cap lead of 3-2 throughout a Conquest match. Or at least, keep it at 2-2.

Yes, your team needs to fight and it's just as big a mistake to run around all match capping ignoring the fight. But nor should anyone let the cap balance get out of hand.

Edited by Appogee, 26 August 2017 - 01:48 AM.

[meteorol]

Appogee, on 26 August 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

I've seen teams lose a ton of matches - including twice just yesterday - because potatoes didn't worry about the cap points while they just shot robots. By the time they finished shooting robots, it was too late for them to cap enough points to overtake the enemy lead.

In this case, the key issue is that the potatoes are simply too slow at killing mechs. Which mostly comes down to being terrible at playing this game, which huge parts of this playerbase are.

Caps are important at very high level of team play, where one mistake can basically cost a match, which leads to both teams not comitting to aggressive play early on.

Normal QP though? The team with more "but muh conquest is for cappingz!!1!1!" guys loses 9 of 10 matches if the other team has enough players that are simply pressing kills. The team with guys focusing caps gets rolled 7v12 while 5 guys are sitting on caps, sharing zero armor, dealing zero damage.

There are few maps on which focusing on caps early on even has a chance of winning more games than it loses in QP. I'm 100% convinced that the "but muh conquest is for cappingz!!1!1!" guys have led to more teams getting stomped 0:12 than any other of MWOs special snowflake grognard category.

Edited by meteorol, 26 August 2017 - 02:55 AM.

[ScrubLord1]

Kin3ticX, on 25 August 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

as long as one side doesn't have 4 caps.

Here's the underlying problem. Most pug teams don't know how to maintain cap control.

And please specify this is for Quickplay Conquest only. Prioritizing kills over caps in Faction Conquest is basically setting up your team to lose.

Edited by ScrubLord1, 26 August 2017 - 03:13 AM.