30 replies to this topic

[Maker L106]

All this time... All this time I thought the projectiles mattered and that I was lagging... The ******* machineguns are HITSCAN!? I need a moment alone... seriously PGI... wtf!?

[SOL Ranger]

Smites, on 26 August 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

You seem like a reasonable and intelligent sort.

But I still can't be bothered to read that, and I sincerely don't believe that anyone with reasonable authority to act upon your suggestions - good or bad - will either. Is there an abridged version? Not a TL:DR, but a briefer, more concise list of what you'd hope to achieve?

I hate to ask but, if you've a good idea somewhere in that very detailed post, I'd like to simply cut straight to it and discuss the merits of your proposal.

Summary

Reduce observed dysfunctional behaviour that is very much unnecessary and as I see it detrimental to the game, also add slight drawbacks and reduce the extremes of properties of the weapons to create much wiggle room for practical benefits being added making the weapons more meaningful as a whole.

Add new roles to the weapons and remove them from the extreme relegated niches where they do not need to exist or redundantly overlap as they do. Then to compensate we also add options to them in the skill tree as they no longer exist on the fringes where improvement of their most prominent properties is by their inherent polarisation impossible to excuse for PGI,

Essentially I'm trying to build a new combat dynamic for low weight ballistics that is more generic and general purpose for MG and HMG's, while notably still retaining the classic idea of the heatless vulnerability seeking machine gun for the LMG. They then all exist more as something interesting to use for all kinds of weight class mechs and builds as light weight ballistics options.

Edited by SOL Ranger, 26 August 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Judah Malganis]

Couple of things:

Standardizing the range, but changing the dmg drop-offs, sounds interesting, but they won't do it. TT has LMG as the long range mg and HMG as the get-in-their-face one. PGI doesn't necessarily follow TT 1:1, but they do follow the broad brush strokes usually.

I guess the other part is that the DPS increases are double-edged. Currently, they apply their crit dmg bonus to slotted gear and 15% of that dmg is applied to the actual internal structure as a bonus over the basic mg dmg, so the current main complaint is that they blow off gear quickly. Higher DPS vs internal structure with no crit bonus would mean slower gear loss, but whole sections blow off much faster, along with all the gear, and would lead to faster TTK for LMG/MG, which would probably lead to more complaints than the current situation. HMGs would also be more effective vs armor (although TTK would be lower for them than currently), and I can imagine that will also lead to tons of salt.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 26 August 2017 - 09:55 AM.

[Prototelis]

Machine guns are fine.

The same people crying for machine gun nerfs think lrms need to be nerfed and flamers are OP.

Lets be honest here. The people most affected by mg boating are isolated players whose preferred method of play is lobbing long range tickles from a ditch well away from the fight.

[Smites]

SOL Ranger, on 26 August 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Summary

Reduce observed dysfunctional behaviour that is very much unnecessary and as I see it detrimental to the game, also add slight drawbacks and reduce the extremes of properties of the weapons to create much wiggle room for practical benefits being added making the weapons more meaningful as a whole.

Add new roles to the weapons and remove them from the extreme relegated niches where they do not need to exist or redundantly overlap as they do. Then to compensate we also add options to them in the skill tree as they no longer exist on the fringes where improvement of their most prominent properties is by their inherent polarisation impossible to excuse for PGI,

Essentially I'm trying to build a new combat dynamic for low weight ballistics that is more generic and general purpose for MG and HMG's, while notably still retaining the classic idea of the heatless vulnerability seeking machine gun for the LMG. They then all exist more as something interesting to use for all kinds of weight class mechs and builds as light weight ballistics options.

OK that summary is good but I meant more like...

Buff LMG by .1 DPS.

Buff HMG range by 10 meters.

Etc.

Simple and clear to understand terms for the average, lazy ForumWarrior.

Nevermind that. I actually went back and read your proposal in full, as you were kind enough to provide a brief summary which I greatly appreciate.

LMG.
Lower crit modifier/linear at range, like ATMs.
Larger CoF to make it less precise, but still accurate.
Reduce ammo by about... 20%.

MG.
Slight DPS boost.
Linear crit modifier, like ATM damage modifier. Detecting a pattern, yet?
CoF reduced.
More ammo, about 25%.

HMG
Range increased significantly.
No structure damage/crit modifier. Pattern defeated.
CoF reduction.

Basically, treat HMG like a rapid fire AC, rather than an LBX.

Am I about right?

Edited by Smites, 26 August 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[SOL Ranger]

Smites, on 26 August 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

OK that summary is good but I meant more like...
*snip*

The property statistics are in the bullet points in each weapon category, here's the core of it.

LMG:

• 320m optimal range(260+60m), conventional range addition
  
• 0.7dps, no change
  
• Removed crit properties, replacing it with a linear solution.
  
• Added a flat 160% increased damage against structure, 1.82dps(from 1.88dps) against pure structure and unchanged 0.7dps(from 0.7dps) against armour.
  
• No heat
  
• CoF increased to 0.4 from 0.2 making it less precise
  
• Projectile velocity increased to 800m/s(visual only)
  
• Ammo capacity increased to 3000/t from 2500/t

MG:

• 360m optimal range(130+230m) conventional range increase
  
• 1.2 dps(1.0 + 0.2) slight conventional dps increase
  
• Removed crit properties, replacing it with a linear solution.
  
• Added a flat 20% increased damage to structure, 1.44dps(from 2.11dps) against pure structure and 1.2dps(from 1.0dps) against armour.
  
• 0.15 heat per second, slight heat addition to the weapon from no heat. 8x would generate 1.2hps from them alone
  
• CoF reduced to 0.5 from 0.6
  
• Projectile velocity increased to 1000m/s(visual only)
  
• Ammo effficiency increased to 2500/t from 2000/t

HMG:

• 380m optimal range(80+300m) conventional range increase
  
• 1.7dps(1.4+0.3) conventional dps increase
  
• Removed crit properties.
  
• No structure damage bonuses added, the weapon does 1.7dps(down from 2.47dps) to structure and 1.7 dps(up from 1.4dps) to armour.
  
• 0.25 heat per second, heat addition to the weapon noticeably higher than the other MG's from previously no heat. 8x would generate 2hps from them alone.
  
• CoF reduced to 0.8(from 1.1)
  
• Projectile velocity increased to 1400m/s(visual only)
  
• Ammo efficiency remains unaltered.

And also then the universal change:

• The skill tree must affect ROF and spread for all MG's in "Cooldown/ROF" and "Weapon Spread" nodes so we can spec into MG warfare, this is a compromise issue and costs other skill nodes in the skill tree. This also gives IS MG's a slight potential ROF increase beyond Clan which fits in nicely with the double increased weight cost.

[SOL Ranger]

El Bandito, on 25 August 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

IMO MG COF should just be removed. Reduce other attributes to compensate. Giving 120 meter optimum range weapon such spread is ridiculous in the first place.

I believe a noticeable CoF is necessary to retain to allow the otherwise high dps and weight ratio to exist for such light weapons, as to not make the weapons become too potent in precision fire combat and leave more such properties to weapons that offer that as their strength, like lasers overall having a strong characteristic of being pinpoint weapons, I believe CoF in the end is a property that works rather well with MG's.

Some adjustment might be possible though, but not much because changes like that when reaching the extremes of a balance axis lead to cumulative costs to compensate on the other properties in terms of the overall power of the weapon; Such a thing is mostly only possible on the HMG proposal as well as I see it because the CoF on it is rather substantial and possibly too high to begin with.

[El Bandito]

SOL Ranger, on 27 August 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

I believe a noticeable CoF is necessary to retain to allow the otherwise high dps and weight ratio to exist for such light weapons

What high DPS? MG does mere 1 DPS. What weight ratio? IS small laser costs the same weight, but does more DPS, from longer range, without facetiming all the way, at the cost of mere 1.5 heat. Yet Small laser is not even used. You concern is unwarranted. MGs are only worth looking if mech structure is exposed.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 August 2017 - 04:53 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

You want to mess with MG's? Pull something straight from TT.

MG's actually have two modes- a low ROF, heatless mode and a much higher ROF but heat-inducing sustained high RPM mode.

Give MGs a bar similar to RACs, but they're already firing even during "windup". If you hold down the trigger, MGs increase damage and begin to generate increasing amounts of heat until they hit full RPM mode. Spread increases with everything else. Tap it and you get short, zero-to-near-zero heat but it doesn't end up a sustained stream of damage like it is now.

So you can fire short, more precise cold bursts, or sustained dakkablasting that requires cooling the guns and more ammo, but spams more damage.

[Y E O N N E]

So...the Flamer mechanic...

[Brain Cancer]

Except it's linear, not exponential and caps at a reasonable level rather than being a "stop pulling the trigger or you explode" thing.

Even at "cold" ROF, an MG canonically fires off for 8 damage over ten seconds (it has a reload time of zero, meaning every 2.5 seconds it burns one "shot" of ammo for 2 damage, and 200 "shots" are per ton of ammo). "Hot" mode in TT is more random about heat and damage (1d6 heat per shot, for example), but a linear ROF increase as heat goes up (I'd probably put max sustained at 3x now, at 3-4 seconds of sustained fire).

This way, we're using existing in-code mechanics (RAC coding, flamer heat) creatively to tweak existing weapons. Again, you could just fire short MG bursts (and it doesn't take long to rip someone up with even a single second's worth of MG bursts), but you probably won't have folks holding down the trigger chasing someone while hoping a hole magically appears in their opponent to explode.