257 replies to this topic

[Ukku]

Learn to twist and suddenly lasers aren't so good anymore.

Edited by Ukku, 29 August 2017 - 01:42 AM.

[sceii]

Khobai, on 29 August 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

because not every clan weapon is lighter. CERML weighs the same as a ISERML for example. both are 1 ton.

and maybe you hadnt noticed but when clan weapons are actually lighter than their IS equivalents they typically come with a big downside.

its why clan autocannons burst fire. its why clan lrms ripple fire. etc...

in fact, the only clan weapon that weighs less and doesnt have a big downside is clan gauss. which is why it needs to be nerfed so it has a downside to be consistent with everything else.



uh what? deathstrike is pretty much considered the best assault in the game right now... so yeah it does dominate. And no a properly played deathstrike is not considered a liability in any gamemode lmao...

If clans had any other reliable maduim range ballistic weapon, but they do not.
You have inferior clan ac with huge spread.
Or you have totally inconsistent clan uac with huge jam chance(sometimes even on first shot) thanks to KDK3.
Or you can have effective only at sub 150m clan lbx.
All this weapon systems suck balls compared to clan gauss.
Even double gauss+vomit builds are easy to counter with brawly build, you just go sub 100m, twist hell of first alpha(prob even duall gauss will hit fifferent locations) and killing this thing easily while it waits to cool for second laser alpha and have to wait ages for second gauss shot.
Lasers are so good now because everything else is nerfed to the point it's useful only in very specific conditions.

Edited by sceii, 29 August 2017 - 01:50 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 29 August 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

in fact, the only clan weapon that weighs less and doesnt have a big downside is clan gauss. which is why it needs to be nerfed so it has a downside to be consistent with everything else.

uh what? deathstrike is pretty much considered the best assault in the game right now... so yeah it does dominate.

Both versions have f-king huge downsides of charge up, exploding, and low DPS. In fact the downsides are so severe that they can only be used effectively by said three mechs because of hardpoint and geometry combination.

Now lets ask to nerf a weapon because deathstrike can snipe out a lot of damage and make his team lose because instead of doing assault thing he sniped from afar.

BTW which one is a third mech? I know Night Gyr which is horribad mobility-wise and Deathstrike. Marauders IIc were made obsolete by Deathstrike, so is it two mechs now?

[Battlemaster56]

Nema Nabojiv, on 29 August 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

Both versions have f-king huge downsides of charge up, exploding, and low DPS. In fact the downsides are so severe that they can only be used effectively by said three mechs because of hardpoint and geometry combination.

Now lets ask to nerf a weapon because deathstrike can snipe out a lot of damage and make his team lose because instead of doing assault thing he sniped from afar.

BTW which one is a third mech? I know Night Gyr which is horribad mobility-wise and Deathstrike. Marauders IIc were made obsolete by Deathstrike, so is it two mechs now?

Kdk3 can do it but it moves like truck so it kinda moot ATM, also beside the death strike the MC MK II-1 can do the dual guass vomit build but with two less lasers.

[Lily from animove]

AncientRaig, on 28 August 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

Sounds about right. The only thing stopping high damage-high heat builds back in TT, or even the old MW games, was heat penalties. Remember back in MW3 when you could literally instantly kill yourself if you generated too much heat at once? Honestly, if MWO just adopted the heat system of MWLL, or maybe mixed MWLL and MW3's heat system together, heat efficient builds would become a lot more important.

yes 3 CERLL could blow your mech up. But basically in MWO this can happen (direstar) which is simply casued by the TOO huge heastcale we do have and a way too forgiving damage done by running into overheating.

lowr heatscale + harsher damage per overheating and we would have a nice fitting range. But I guess to many casuals couldn't deal with that kind of adjustment so they deny this system for accessability reasons to a wider mass of players.

[C4NC3R]

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 28 August 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

And if you go too far you will just encourage PPC/Gauss boating again, which the IS can do more effectively due to more tonnage and non-locked mechs.

Wait, what? You think IS 'mechs have more free tonnage than Clan ones? Also, you forgot Clans also have BattleMechs, including possibly the best Medium and 1-4 (depending on your piloting ability) of the best Assaults?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Battlemaster56, on 29 August 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:

Kdk3 can do it but it moves like truck so it kinda moot ATM, also beside the death strike the MC MK II-1 can do the dual guass vomit build but with two less lasers.

The Whale is the better option because Gauss it the arms is better, plus it can run all the lasers in the arm. The only real difference between it and the MKII is it doesn't have the higher arm mounts.

Yeonne Greene, on 26 August 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

we would likely take a WLF, a crit-ACH, two Hunchback IIC, a couple of EBJs, and a couple of Mad Cat Mk. II (one dakka, one Gauss-Vomit).

I'm late to the party, but Night Gyrs are the heavy you seek (2 Gauss, 2 ERLL, 2 ERML, could replace the ERLL with HLL if you wanted).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 August 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 August 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

The Whale is the better option because Gauss it the arms is better, plus it can run all the lasers in the arm. The only real difference between it and the MKII is it doesn't have the higher arm mounts.

True I keep forgetting the Dire can dual guass plus lasers pretty good at it too since it free moving too, also need to pick me up whale later on just to mess around with.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 29 August 2017 - 08:47 AM.

[Trissila]

There really isn't anything you can do. Not without making lasers as a weapon class complete garbage and not worth taking, ever.

Fundamentally, MWO is a game of attrition. Damage doesn't really matter unless and until a component is destroyed. It contributes, certainly, but there is no practical difference, from a threat perspective, between a LT with 80 armor remaining and an LT with 20 armor remaining.

So you've got two basic styles of attack: burst (more colloquially referred to as frontload in this community), where your attacks deal big damage but have a substantial cooldown between uses (usually due to heat), and sustain, where your attacks do less damage but you can keep them going for a while. Laser boating falls more into the former; while it's not as frontload as PPC/Gauss builds, it's still in that archetype: huge damage over your second-or-so burn time on the alpha, and then a big cooldown while you wait to dump off your heat.

The problem is that the game's nature is very poke-y, oweing to the no-or-limited respawn mechanics. You can't afford to take risks and die, because that puts your team seriously behind and leads to snowball defeats. Sustained brawls out in the open are fairly rare, and most engagements happen at significant range and with interposing terrain to use as cover. This leads to relatively low exposure times: opportunities to fire on a target are brief unless it makes a serious tactical error.

And when you've only got a short amount of uptime on your target, what you want is Burst. Burst will always be dominant in a game with low uptime as a rule. The cooldown doesn't really matter when you don't want to be exposing yourself anyway; you run through your cooldown while you're performing other necessary tasks like repositioning.

If you nerf lasers until they don't do enough burst to compete with sustain builds, they will simply be replaced with the next best burst option until all burst options are so weak that they can't compete with sustain builds, even when poking.

[Khobai]

Quote

If clans had any other reliable maduim range ballistic weapon, but they do not.

um thats kindve the whole point behind how PGI asymmetrically balanced clan tech. in exchange for not having as much PPFLD, clans get lighter weapons that take up less crit slots, and better heatsinks.

clan gauss is the one exception to that and should definitely be changed.

Quote

Both versions have f-king huge downsides of charge up, exploding, and low DPS. In fact the downsides are so severe that they can only be used effectively by said three mechs because of hardpoint and geometry combination.

but the clan version weighs 3 tons less and 1 crit less and has no additional downsides compared to IS gauss. that is simply not balanced.

and its already been explained that even though its only used on 3 mechs, those 3 mechs, especially deathstrike, dominate the meta. deathstrike is pretty much the best assault in the game right now.

Edited by Khobai, 29 August 2017 - 09:11 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

Ukku, on 29 August 2017 - 01:42 AM, said:

Learn to twist and suddenly lasers aren't so good anymore.

Unfortunately there are mechs just can't do torso twist effectively anymore.

Trissila, on 29 August 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

There really isn't anything you can do. Not without making lasers as a weapon class complete garbage and not worth taking, ever.

Fundamentally, MWO is a game of attrition. Damage doesn't really matter unless and until a component is destroyed. It contributes, certainly, but there is no practical difference, from a threat perspective, between a LT with 80 armor remaining and an LT with 20 armor remaining.

So you've got two basic styles of attack: burst (more colloquially referred to as frontload in this community), where your attacks deal big damage but have a substantial cooldown between uses (usually due to heat), and sustain, where your attacks do less damage but you can keep them going for a while. Laser boating falls more into the former; while it's not as frontload as PPC/Gauss builds, it's still in that archetype: huge damage over your second-or-so burn time on the alpha, and then a big cooldown while you wait to dump off your heat.

The problem is that the game's nature is very poke-y, oweing to the no-or-limited respawn mechanics. You can't afford to take risks and die, because that puts your team seriously behind and leads to snowball defeats. Sustained brawls out in the open are fairly rare, and most engagements happen at significant range and with interposing terrain to use as cover. This leads to relatively low exposure times: opportunities to fire on a target are brief unless it makes a serious tactical error.

And when you've only got a short amount of uptime on your target, what you want is Burst. Burst will always be dominant in a game with low uptime as a rule. The cooldown doesn't really matter when you don't want to be exposing yourself anyway; you run through your cooldown while you're performing other necessary tasks like repositioning.

If you nerf lasers until they don't do enough burst to compete with sustain builds, they will simply be replaced with the next best burst option until all burst options are so weak that they can't compete with sustain builds, even when poking.

It is very clear than PGI is definitely pushing sustain builds really hard. More short-range, chaotic fights is where this game is going.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 August 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

I'm late to the party, but Night Gyrs are the heavy you seek (2 Gauss, 2 ERLL, 2 ERML, could replace the ERLL with HLL if you wanted).

Of course. I keep forgetting the NTG is still a thing...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Lighthouse, on 29 August 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

It is very clear than PGI is definitely pushing sustain builds really hard. More short-range, chaotic fights is where this game is going.

It very clearly isn't as they nerfed the one thing that made short-range mechs actually competitive, the cSPL. Nothing has yet to replace the void left by the cSPL.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 August 2017 - 09:28 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 August 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

It very clearly isn't as they nerfed the one thing that made short-range mechs actually competitive, the cSPL. Nothing has yet to replace the void left by the cSPL.

The primary reason of nerfing cSPL and SPL was to nerf light mechs. It is probably the only exception because PGI always thinks the light mechs are overpowered.

Just look at the mechs that are abused in FW. They are Orion, Orion IIC, Roughneck, Linkbacker, and Assassin. Do you know what they have in common? They are all speedy mechs with a lot of defensive quirks that they rely far less on torso twisting, instead they can just facetank/hug enemies no problem.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Lighthouse, on 29 August 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

The primary reason of nerfing cSPL and SPL was to nerf light mechs.

That's an assumption on your part because the 10 SPL Nova was easily one of the strongest brawlers at the time.

The Lighthouse, on 29 August 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Just look at the mechs that are abused in FW. They are Orion, Orion IIC, Roughneck, Linkbacker, and Assassin. Do you know what they have in common? They are all speedy mechs with a lot of defensive quirks that they rely far less on torso twisting, instead they can just facetank/hug enemies no problem.

Ima stop you right there and say don't use FW as a point of reference. Why? Because respawns change the emphasis of the game (and because Invasion mode is still a borked game mode).

[The Lighthouse]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 August 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

That's an assumption on your part because the 10 SPL Nova was easily one of the strongest brawlers at the time.

Fair point indeed.

Quote

Ima stop you right there and say don't use FW as a point of reference. Why? Because respawns change the emphasis of the game (and because Invasion mode is still a borked game mode).

Well, not really. These tanky mech rushs are all used in all types of game mode, not just Invasion.

[Kitty Bacon]

One of the best ways they could balance laser builds is to introduce other armor types like Reflective Armor and Reactive Armor.

One reason for doing this is to add more of a tactical flexibility to the game and encourage mixed builds. Or, as others have pointed out, bring in Convergence for the mech weapons that is actual Convergence.

Just my two Cbils!

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 29 August 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

and its already been explained that even though its only used on 3 mechs, those 3 mechs, especially deathstrike, dominate the meta. deathstrike is pretty much the best assault in the game right now.

If three mechs are a problem (they are not but lets imagine they are for a second), then its them who should be 'balanced' not the weapon which is so bad it can be used effectively on only three mechs.

And that is just your opinion thankfully. We also have opinions that lasers have to be nerfed, lrms have to be nerfed, machineguns have to be nerfed, clans have to be nerfed, IS have to be nerfed, and basically everything people are getting killed by have to be nerfed.

Luckily, you have me. A shining beacon of reason preaching that everything I am bad at needs to be buffed. This approach will make people happier at least. Yours, will make people miserable.

[MischiefSC]

Trissila, on 29 August 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

There really isn't anything you can do. Not without making lasers as a weapon class complete garbage and not worth taking, ever.

Fundamentally, MWO is a game of attrition. Damage doesn't really matter unless and until a component is destroyed. It contributes, certainly, but there is no practical difference, from a threat perspective, between a LT with 80 armor remaining and an LT with 20 armor remaining.

So you've got two basic styles of attack: burst (more colloquially referred to as frontload in this community), where your attacks deal big damage but have a substantial cooldown between uses (usually due to heat), and sustain, where your attacks do less damage but you can keep them going for a while. Laser boating falls more into the former; while it's not as frontload as PPC/Gauss builds, it's still in that archetype: huge damage over your second-or-so burn time on the alpha, and then a big cooldown while you wait to dump off your heat.

The problem is that the game's nature is very poke-y, oweing to the no-or-limited respawn mechanics. You can't afford to take risks and die, because that puts your team seriously behind and leads to snowball defeats. Sustained brawls out in the open are fairly rare, and most engagements happen at significant range and with interposing terrain to use as cover. This leads to relatively low exposure times: opportunities to fire on a target are brief unless it makes a serious tactical error.

And when you've only got a short amount of uptime on your target, what you want is Burst. Burst will always be dominant in a game with low uptime as a rule. The cooldown doesn't really matter when you don't want to be exposing yourself anyway; you run through your cooldown while you're performing other necessary tasks like repositioning.

If you nerf lasers until they don't do enough burst to compete with sustain builds, they will simply be replaced with the next best burst option until all burst options are so weak that they can't compete with sustain builds, even when poking.

People need to read this. Very clear, very correct.

A fundamental balance problem we will always have is people misusing 'lore' and people wanting balance to favor bad builds (like somehow it could). People think 'balanced' means their LB5X, Streak 4, ERLL, Small Pulse Kit Fox (I've seen it) should be just as useful as a 2x HLL, 5xCERML EBJ.

That's never, ever, ever going to happen. Ever.

Because we have a mechlab there is never, ever, ever going to be a point where stock mechs are as good as intelligently modified mechs. Ever. If you could mechlab all you wanted in TT you would constantly make better mechs using tabletop stats than stock mechs. The point of stock mechs was to force flaws in design. The whole 'weapon for all ranges' idea was always stupid, always inferior but they did it to try and generate a 'feel' for the mechs and prevent alpha strike FTW designs.

Balance is about trying to keep as many options viable as possible but good designs are always going to be better than bad designs. Good designs are identified by what actually works best - not what someone wants to work best. We have a big population who makes bad mech design and tactical choices, then rages that the game is made wrong when those bad builds and designs fail overall.

That's a player issue, not a game issue.

Lasers are well balanced for what they are. The only balance issue they create is how to make more DPS oriented builds able to compete more effectively without being broken in turn.