38 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

In light of the "nerf laser vomit" thread, I thought of myself a little tweak. I don't agree that Laser Vomits are OP, it's just that i have something against alphas be it laser vomits, gauss vomits, etc.

So my idea is that, what if the Lasers have a trend of exponential heat with respect to the alpha count. Now i know that's basic ghost-heat, but what if instead of integrating it to penalize the user, lets calibrate it to "reward" chain firing and partitioning lasers instead?

To put that into perspective, currently 6 C-ERML + 2 C-LPL does a whopping 57.8 heat alpha. But with the system, the combination of those would still result at a total of 57.8 heat. But individually, like the C-ERML originally doing only 6.3 heat a piece, would instead do only 2.50 heat. Like ghost-heat, having 2 C-ERML would result 5.00 heat, but with this system it would be something like 5.25 heat instead. The penalty would be negligible, but would stack with additional lasers, but just enough to do the old heat value we are comfortable with.

Basically, the ghost heat affects the lasers when fired 2+, while reducing the base heat of lasers when fired individually. And when shot at their original ghost heat limit, it would still amount to the same heat as they do before.

For example:

Spoiler

But, that's just an example. The actual trend would still follow the trend of the original ghost-heat penalties, and so possibly the individual heat could be a lot higher than the example. But that just explains the thought of the idea. It only "rewards" the alphas below the safe GH limit, but otherwise at the limit and above it remains the same.

Think of it as a Negative Ghost Heat system, where the GH system imposes exponential increase of heat above the limit, this system imposes exponential decrease in heat below the limit.

What do you think of that system?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 August 2017 - 04:10 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

The6thMessenger, on 26 August 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

...

What do you think of that system?

Ghost heat being in existence is an abomination, and instead an actual dynamic heat affects table should have been implemented, so that there would be risks and penalties to running hot.

So ultimately, any change to it is a waste of time and effort.

[El Bandito]

The6thMessenger, on 26 August 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

In light of the "nerf laser vomit" thread, I thought of myself a little tweak. I don't agree that Laser Vomits are OP, it's just that i have something against alphas be it laser vomits, gauss vomits, etc.

You think laser vomit is bad now, wait until September when PGI changes Operations skill nodes so that Coolrun and Heat Capacity nodes will factor in heatsinks. Laservomit will greatly benefit in general, and Clan las-vomit mechs will benefit more than IS las-vomit mechs, since Clan ones generally carry 1/3 more external DHS.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 August 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Potatoes are gun potato.

No new or worse variants of ghost heat needed.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 26 August 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[Judah Malganis]

I thought ghost heat already worked on a logarithmic scale?

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 26 August 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

You think laser vomit is bad now, wait until September when PGI changes Operations skill nodes so that Coolrun and Heat Capacity nodes will factor in heatsinks. Laservomit will greatly benefit in general, and Clan las-vomit mechs will benefit more than IS las-vomit mechs, since Clan ones generally carry 1/3 more external DHS.

Yeah, but folks are going to have to reduce their skills in other areas in order to pack in those 20 nodes in Operations.

It'll be great for me since I already skip aux (I hate money sinks and think they should die in a bus fire), but that doesn't apply to most people.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 26 August 2017 - 05:49 PM, said:

Yeah, but folks are going to have to reduce their skills in other areas in order to pack in those 20 nodes in Operations.

It'll be great for me since I already skip aux (I hate money sinks and think they should die in a bus fire), but that doesn't apply to most people.

I already do full Operations.




Cause I didn't know better.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 August 2017 - 06:32 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

El Bandito, on 26 August 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:

I already do full Operations.




Cause I didn't know better.

I only do budget builds of each trees, basically a generalist approach that spreads around my points than min-max, only varying on builds but they are usually the same.

Case and point.

Spoiler

[Navid A1]

El Bandito, on 26 August 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

You think laser vomit is bad now, wait until September when PGI changes Operations skill nodes so that Coolrun and Heat Capacity nodes will factor in heatsinks. Laservomit will greatly benefit in general, and Clan las-vomit mechs will benefit more than IS las-vomit mechs, since Clan ones generally carry 1/3 more external DHS.

Cool Run already factors in your heat sinks.

They are only buffing the heat containment nodes... which is very beneficial to laser vomit mechs

[MagicIndex]

The6thMessenger, on 26 August 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

I only do budget builds of each trees, basically a generalist approach that spreads around my points than min-max, only varying on builds but they are usually the same.

Case and point.

Spoiler

On Dakka URB you need just Operations, Survival, Mobility, Firepower.... rest is a waste of nodes.

[Natred]

Ghost heat is a result of lack of balancing experience. They literally could not come up with anything better. Slot limitation and heat cap limitation is not enough apprently they have to make a heat penalty system which is entirely fictitious and arbitrary.

So here you are actually suggesting more ghost heat... sad day.

[DrSaphron]

Chain firing lasers is a TERRIBLE idea always! Now, breaking your las vom into seperate fire groups to maintain pressure and control heat, Great idea! Lastly, if you can aim half way decently take the left side off your las vom mech in question, the vast majority of them have most of their firepower on the left and a ST comes off a lot easier than going through the CT.

[Thorqemada]

Does firing a Weapon stop cooling down?

That would make Chainfire really bad...

[The6thMessenger]

MagicIndex, on 27 August 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

On Dakka URB you need just Operations, Survival, Mobility, Firepower.... rest is a waste of nodes.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I know how to skill an Urbanmech. Been here for a while, and even longer than you.

Also, if you don't know, Radar Deprivation is essential, at least two nodes.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 August 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

So, if I get this right, you are proposing a negative energy draw system? Because energy draw was supposed to impose heat penalties for alphas over a certain point. Yours seems to be reducing the heat generated by lasers under a certain threshold of damage output.

[The6thMessenger]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 August 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

So, if I get this right, you are proposing a negative energy draw system? Because energy draw was supposed to impose heat penalties for alphas over a certain point. Yours seems to be reducing the heat generated by lasers under a certain threshold of damage output.

No, it's a "negative ghost heat" system. As opposed of having heat penalty above 7+ count of the ERML, my suggestion is that heat would be lower, at 5 and below at the same trend as the penalty.

This could make partitioned and chain-fired lasers a lot more attractive. Likewise it obscures the limit so people won't be too obsessed about the limit, and just build as they want/need.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 August 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 August 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

So, if I get this right, you are proposing a negative energy draw system? Because energy draw was supposed to impose heat penalties for alphas over a certain point. Yours seems to be reducing the heat generated by lasers under a certain threshold of damage output.

Energy Draw should've imposed cool-down penalties, not heat penalties. Big alpha? Big forced cool-down. No cool-shots to victory.

And that's assuming you fixed the way it tracks the points.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 August 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

Energy Draw should've imposed cool-down penalties, not heat penalties. Big alpha? Big forced cool-down. No cool-shots to victory.

And that's assuming you fixed the way it tracks the points.

Yeah, honestly i think that Cooldown Penalties would be far more reasonable than heat penalties.

[Pariah Devalis]

The6thMessenger, on 27 August 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yeah, honestly i think that Cooldown Penalties would be far more reasonable than heat penalties.

I would have gone with convergence, personally, but the code monkeys have difficulty with the spaghetti code as is. Only because high cooldowns and high heat work out to about the same. In both cases you still shoot, back into cover, and wait.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 August 2017 - 04:23 PM, said:

I would have gone with convergence, personally, but the code monkeys have difficulty with the spaghetti code as is. Only because high cooldowns and high heat work out to about the same. In both cases you still shoot, back into cover, and wait.

Eh, not quite. High heat can be countered by cool-shots, meaning you have a fallback when pushed. High heat also prevents you from using anything else. Cool-down means you are stuck waiting, period, if something pushes and the only way you can have a fallback is if you have weapons you didn't already fire.

What's important is that the window of opportunity for counter-attack has been widened.