45 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'm certain clans still have an edge as far as technology goes, but the biggest problem the IS has is its pugs. IS pugs appear to be some of the worst video game players on the planet.

[Jun Watarase]

I just dont get how IS pilots have trouble killing clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter than them. My IS heavies dont even need to try to stomp clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter in QP, but thats because that tonnage advantage is supposed to guarantee a win.

A warhammer/marauder/black knight/grasshopper can basically facetank a mad dog and win without even trying, the grasshopper and black knight in particular have assault level armor due to quirks, and the tonnage advantage lets them bring three.

And clans dont have anything like a SRM assassin for the last wave which shits all over everything lighter than a stormcrow and comes close to beating a stormcrow due to better agility, hitboxes and quirks depsite being 15 tons lighter.

The only way i can see clan mechs beating the top tier IS heavies on a 1v1 basis, all other factors being equal, is if the IS mech cant close the 50-100m range gap for whatever reason and if the clan mech is a EBJ/Hellbringer/TBR running laser vomit. Otherwise a IS heavy with low duration pulses basically stomps them into the dirt especially since they have better hitboxes and can use arms to shield their torsos while the EBJ/TBR cant. Its not very funny watching half or more of your lasers go to the arms of a IS heavy because they can just alpha and then torso twist while you are still in mid laser burn.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 02 September 2017 - 06:17 PM.

[Commander A9]

It's not the mech...it's the installed hardware positioned behind the cockpit glass.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Posted Today, 08:16 PM
I just dont get how IS pilots have trouble killing clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter than them. My IS heavies dont even need to try to stomp clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter in QP, but thats because that tonnage advantage is supposed to guarantee a win.

A warhammer/marauder/black knight/grasshopper can basically facetank a mad dog and win without even trying, the grasshopper and black knight in particular have assault level armor due to quirks, and the tonnage advantage lets them bring three.

And clans dont have anything like a SRM assassin for the last wave which shits all over everything lighter than a stormcrow and comes close to beating a stormcrow due to better agility, hitboxes and quirks depsite being 15 tons lighter.

The only way i can see clan mechs beating the top tier IS heavies on a 1v1 basis, all other factors being equal, is if the IS mech cant close the 50-100m range gap for whatever reason and if the clan mech is a EBJ/Hellbringer/TBR running laser vomit. Otherwise a IS heavy with low duration pulses basically stomps them into the dirt especially since they have better hitboxes and can use arms to shield their torsos while the EBJ/TBR cant. Its not very funny watching half or more of your lasers go to the arms of a IS heavy because they can just alpha and then torso twist while you are still in mid laser burn.

are we talking FP/CW or quick play?
two totally different animals

[Carl Vickers]

Kaeb Odellas, on 02 September 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm certain clans still have an edge as far as technology goes, but the biggest problem the IS has is its pugs. IS pugs appear to be some of the worst video game players on the planet.

Biggest tech edge the clans have now is CXL, but still, IS can beat clans, IS srm's are much better than clans as an example.

[Davegt27]

what! your not PGI trying to troll us again

[Carl Vickers]

Davegt27, on 02 September 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

what! your not PGI trying to troll us again

Nope, just played both sides and know their strengths and weaknesses.

[Davegt27]

ok lets say your not trolling and you just want to pick I silly fight about Mech combat effectiveness

so this potato through this together (I wont put SRMs on my Clan Mechs I use streaks but lets just say)



now IS SRM mech (yeah yeah it wont work but lets just say)



all this ignores the elephant in the room

[Carl Vickers]

Lol, ammo explosions happen less than 10% of the time so no elephant there, free case is good, dont get me wrong, but is not critical. I think I have case on maybe 1 or 2 IS mechs due to build.

Your Griffin build is frankly a little average due to not using XL and your armor distribution on said Griffin isnt great either.

Yes clan tech has its advantages, lower weight ect but it also has its drawbacks, those SRM's spread a lot more than IS SRM's. The lazor duration is another area where IS is better. Clans have longer range which PGI somewhat balances out with armor/structure quirks to allow IS to be able to get to their idea range.

This is what happens when you go loyalist and dont know the other side and just look at the plain stats, you dont know the reality.

I have played and won on both sides, against units and pugs, its all the same, know the sides weaknesses and strengths and play to it.

[Davegt27]

I was Clan and IS
also played CW since day one

[M R T]

Kaeb Odellas, on 02 September 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm certain clans still have an edge as far as technology goes, but the biggest problem the IS has is its pugs. IS pugs appear to be some of the worst video game players on the planet.

I disagree. In my experience (which is limited I admit), the problem is not the PUGs, noob or potatos (insert other derogative names here), but the veteran players. The thing that decides the outcome of a fight, is whether it is organized or not. For each and every successful IS fight I have been in, one or more veteran players, has stood up and taken charge. When this happens, the new players fall in line, and execute the plan to the best of their ability, which often leads to success.

So naturally, when the veterans refuse to take charge, and just expects the new players to automatically know what to do to win, the results are disasterous. And this again leads to frustration for the veterans, who then switches sides to play for the winning side, which just makes the situation worse. This causes a snowball effect, which will only get worse over time.

It really is quite logical. If you want to win, and you have a lot of new players, you as a veteran player needs to step up and take responsibility for leading the new players, telling them what to do and how to do it. And please be realistic, don't expect magic to happen the first time, it takes time for a new player to get better.

But win or loose, as long as someone steps up and organizes, the fight will at least be a fun fight, instead of a stomp. And as long as you're having fun, you'll want to come back and try to do better next time.

[SmokeGuar]

Considering there are tens of thousands of players, some more active than others, there is no way of telling who are new and who are vets. Problem is, regardless of exp level, players tend to do their own thing on pug drops. Giving any advice to new or less active falls to deaf ears.

When advises gets ignored, game get stale real quick. And salty.

[TWIAFU]

Jun Watarase, on 02 September 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

I just dont get how IS pilots have trouble killing clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter than them. My IS heavies dont even need to try to stomp clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter in QP, but thats because that tonnage advantage is supposed to guarantee a win.

You cannot understand it because you play CW. You know and understand the mode. You know how to play it and what it takes to play and excel; teamwork, grouping, TS, etc.

The pilots you speak of can't, won't, or will not understand. To them, CW is QP with respawn. Watch them, you'll see it. Until that mindset changes those pilots will be seals, cannon fodder, fish in a barrel, the proverbial Star Trek Red Shirt of CW.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Carl Vickers, on 02 September 2017 - 05:28 AM, said:

Are u the khan of that starter unit u play for yet or still just a lowly warrior, you've been there long enough ;p

Uhm, what? The unit I am in is barely 3 months old....

Why do you have an issue with me? and what is your issue? that comment was rather non-sensical...

Edited by Poptimus Rhyme Wallace, 03 September 2017 - 05:52 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Jun Watarase, on 02 September 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

I just dont get how IS pilots have trouble killing clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter than them. My IS heavies dont even need to try to stomp clan mechs 10-15 tons lighter in QP, but thats because that tonnage advantage is supposed to guarantee a win.

A warhammer/marauder/black knight/grasshopper can basically facetank a mad dog and win without even trying, the grasshopper and black knight in particular have assault level armor due to quirks, and the tonnage advantage lets them bring three.

And clans dont have anything like a SRM assassin for the last wave which shits all over everything lighter than a stormcrow and comes close to beating a stormcrow due to better agility, hitboxes and quirks depsite being 15 tons lighter.

The only way i can see clan mechs beating the top tier IS heavies on a 1v1 basis, all other factors being equal, is if the IS mech cant close the 50-100m range gap for whatever reason and if the clan mech is a EBJ/Hellbringer/TBR running laser vomit. Otherwise a IS heavy with low duration pulses basically stomps them into the dirt especially since they have better hitboxes and can use arms to shield their torsos while the EBJ/TBR cant. Its not very funny watching half or more of your lasers go to the arms of a IS heavy because they can just alpha and then torso twist while you are still in mid laser burn.

Except the alpha of 64-71 on my EBJs is cooler and has better range than the 53 or alpha on the BK/GHR. Also faster than either.

The 17 structure on the BKs CT doesn't mean a lot given that I'm doing almost 40 more points over 2 alphas, faster and at better range - plus I'll cool faster.

LBK is faster, also has structure/armor quirks and hits just as hard.

Balance is still closer than it's been before (maybe - HLLs have kicked Clan firepower back up a bit) but it's stupid not to admit Clans are still better.

Plus my wave 1 MKII or MAD easily kills a couple enemy mechs at any tonnage.

80 or alpha at 500m while moving 70. I'm usually doing about 60 pts more damage over 3 trades than the IS equivalent. The 10 or so extra structure isn't that big a deal. My extra 3-5 DHS and 5-10 kph id.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Carl Vickers, on 02 September 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

Biggest tech edge the clans have now is CXL, but still, IS can beat clans, IS srm's are much better than clans as an example.

How do you figure IS SRMS are much better? They have a slight spread and damage advantage but weigh twice as much.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Morte Nilsum, on 03 September 2017 - 02:32 AM, said:

I disagree. In my experience (which is limited I admit), the problem is not the PUGs, noob or potatos (insert other derogative names here), but the veteran players. The thing that decides the outcome of a fight, is whether it is organized or not. For each and every successful IS fight I have been in, one or more veteran players, has stood up and taken charge. When this happens, the new players fall in line, and execute the plan to the best of their ability, which often leads to success.

So naturally, when the veterans refuse to take charge, and just expects the new players to automatically know what to do to win, the results are disasterous. And this again leads to frustration for the veterans, who then switches sides to play for the winning side, which just makes the situation worse. This causes a snowball effect, which will only get worse over time.

It really is quite logical. If you want to win, and you have a lot of new players, you as a veteran player needs to step up and take responsibility for leading the new players, telling them what to do and how to do it. And please be realistic, don't expect magic to happen the first time, it takes time for a new player to get better.

But win or loose, as long as someone steps up and organizes, the fight will at least be a fun fight, instead of a stomp. And as long as you're having fun, you'll want to come back and try to do better next time.

I'm happy to take charge of a pug drop, but there's nothing I can do about people who don't follow directions (don't reinforce goddammit!), bring terrible builds (pretty much anything with LRMs), act like they're superior players for hanging in the back and letting their teammates do all the dying ("I've been playing since Mechwarrior 1, you guy should just stop dying"), or generally lack skill. I also have the voice of a 14 year old boy, which does little to inspire confidence and has on many occasions drawn comments from the immature.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Kaeb Odellas, on 03 September 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

I'm happy to take charge of a pug drop, but there's nothing I can do about people who don't follow directions (don't reinforce goddammit!), bring terrible builds (pretty much anything with LRMs), act like they're superior players for hanging in the back and letting their teammates do all the dying ("I've been playing since Mechwarrior 1, you guy should just stop dying"), or generally lack skill. I also have the voice of a 14 year old boy, which does little to inspire confidence and has on many occasions drawn comments from the immature.

+1
This is exactly whats happening to me all the time. Best thing is when you take charge, people f* up, do not listen to commands, bring 4 LRM mechs (yes no bull I have seen LRM Stalker, LRM Warhammer, LRM Griffin and LRM Raven take the field) do not use their full available tonnage, drop the light mech first, because "good idea" and then blame the drop lead.

[Jun Watarase]

Davegt27, on 02 September 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

are we talking FP/CW or quick play?
two totally different animals

FP. Warhammer/Black knight/Marauder/Grasshopper with durability quirks, better hitboxes and lower burn durations vs a mad dog/EBJ/Hellbringer/linebacker at close range is pretty much an auto win and the tonnage advantage lets the IS side bring 3 and still run a very tanky light/medium with decent firepower. Those impressive long range alphas mean very little at close range when a good portion of your laser burn is going to the shield arms and he can hit the CT of a EBJ from the sides because it is a protruding nose.

In QP my IS mechs easily stomp clan mechs of same/lower tonnage without even trying except at long range laser vomit.

Ive seen several IS units do brawl pushes with assault spam, but have yet to see any clan units do something similar, probably because of the tonnage gap and lack of decent brawling options.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 September 2017 - 11:12 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Kaeb Odellas, on 03 September 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

How do you figure IS SRMS are much better? They have a slight spread and damage advantage but weigh twice as much.

The gap is a lot closer when you factor in artemis. IS mechs are also better for brawling due to durability quirks + higher agility overall. SRM Cyclops vs Executioner isnt even a contest for example. You can do 6x SRM-6s on a MDD-A, but its not very effective because a pulse boat is going to take out a side torso in two alphas while you spread damage everywhere, and 75 ton IS heavies are more agile than you are.

SRM griffin vs Stormcrow/Huntsman also has a huge edge due to JJs/Shield arms/Durability, so does SRM assassin vs SRM jenner IIC. Assassin vs viper/ice ferret/shadow cat at close range isnt even a contest.

Im actually curious about how much of an effect .5 in spread means for SRMs. 4x SRM-4s vs 3x SRM-6s feels a lot more effective, although that might just be due to the lower cooldown times.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 September 2017 - 11:14 PM.