254 replies to this topic

[Fox With A Shotgun]

I'm seeing matches become worse, if anything. Wait times have remained more or less the same; but I'm in a light, which means that the queue is almost always empty for me. Not sure how it is for mediums, heavies and assaults.

At Tier 3, players are less conditioned to be timid about pushing. At Tier 1? Good luck convincing the fatmechs in Charlie to move their fat behinds with the team. Scratched paint is considered too much to pay for, and putting a lighter mech in front of you as a meatshield is supposedly good strategy.

I do find myself playing less and less these days, as the completely asinine behaviour of some players really makes me wonder why I have to be on my A-game as a light pilot. I can't rely on my teammates to support others and suppress enemies, let alone turn around in their desperate quest for NASCAR. It's extremely frustrating, and frustrating is not what a game should be.

[kesmai]

Ts ts ts
The only solution to the problem is:
QUADRUPEDS.

Noobs.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 11 September 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

I'm seeing matches become worse, if anything. Wait times have remained more or less the same; but I'm in a light, which means that the queue is almost always empty for me. Not sure how it is for mediums, heavies and assaults.

At Tier 3, players are less conditioned to be timid about pushing. At Tier 1? Good luck convincing the fatmechs in Charlie to move their fat behinds with the team. Scratched paint is considered too much to pay for, and putting a lighter mech in front of you as a meatshield is supposedly good strategy.

I do find myself playing less and less these days, as the completely asinine behaviour of some players really makes me wonder why I have to be on my A-game as a light pilot. I can't rely on my teammates to support others and suppress enemies, let alone turn around in their desperate quest for NASCAR. It's extremely frustrating, and frustrating is not what a game should be.

Players being stupid is not a problem that the Match Maker could ever solve though ...

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Lorcryst NySell, on 11 September 2017 - 03:42 AM, said:

Players being stupid is not a problem that the Match Maker could ever solve though ...

It's true, but if MM was actually using a reasonable metric to gauge player ability, there should be *less* potating at higher tiers. As it stands, because PSR is positive-biased and not zero-sum, there really is no differentiation of players by the MM.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 11 September 2017 - 03:48 AM.

[Racerxintegra2k]

Lorcryst NySell, on 08 September 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

I'll note this down.

It doesn't match with my personnal experience ingame though.

Yes, I'm doing something wrong, often. Well, less and less often as times pass, but anyway ...

I've had several games where I was rounding a corner to try to peek because most of my pug-team was hiding in the back lobbing ammo in the countryside, got focused by 6 'Mechs, poped in less than 10 seconds but managed to launch an UAV, did less than 100 match score while my team still won because I showed them where to shoot ... AND LOST XP BAR.

Like, one match in five is like that for me.

I've even lost PSR with a match score of 200 ON A WIN.

So while I believe you, because you seem like you know a lot more than me, it does not compute with my personnal experience.

I lose more PSR than I gain, every day, even when I'm in a good streak.

And yes, I know, I'm the problem, keep your flamer stashed.

Man, i cant help but point out. It took you several matches of "peeking" around a corner and presenting yourself as a target for 6 mechs to realize they will kill you in 10 sec ?? Also why are you spending 40k cbills on consumables if you are dead in 10 seconds. This is pretty remedial stuff.

I'm not sure why you keep going around in circles on the forum about how bad you are but there isn't a PSR upward biased. There absolutely is and you really don't even have to be average to feel it pull you up. Listen to the people that try and help you and you will climb, slowly at least.

[Lily from animove]

Funnily this was the way it was in the beginning (or at least some changes ago).
However, the issue still is that the player rating isn't good enough and so you will find too many incorrectly labelled people in matches they don't belong to.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Racerxintegra2k, on 11 September 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

Man, i cant help but point out. It took you several matches of "peeking" around a corner and presenting yourself as a target for 6 mechs to realize they will kill you in 10 sec ?? Also why are you spending 40k cbills on consumables if you are dead in 10 seconds. This is pretty remedial stuff.

I'm not sure why you keep going around in circles on the forum about how bad you are but there isn't a PSR upward biased. There absolutely is and you really don't even have to be average to feel it pull you up. Listen to the people that try and help you and you will climb, slowly at least.

If you're following my posts, you should have noted, in this very thread, that I said I was wrong ... I'm not stubborn to the point of never admitting I'm wrong

[Monster Ultra Zero]

I have yet to notice improved per-match balance. Waiting times, though...

[C E Dwyer]

Brain Cancer, on 08 September 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

For people not understanding PSR:

Whether you gain or lose bar on going up/down on Tier depends on two things.

1) Did your team win? If yes, you cannot go down- even doing nothing gets you a "no gain/no loss", and a modest amount of effort will mean at least a bit of gain. Damage does not equal good match score alone, nor does "I killed something". Match score is what determines gain/no gain/loss. If your team lost, you MAY go down, depending on match score, but a good match score will actually gain tier bar on a loss. It's always worth it to do well individually.

2) On a Win:
PSR goes up a lot if match score is >400
PSR goes up a moderate amount if match score is >250 but <=400
PSR goes up a little if match score is >= 100
PSR has NO CHANGE for a match score <100

3) On a Loss:
PSR goes up if match score is > 400
PSR has NO CHANGE for a match score >250 but <= 400
PSR goes down a little if match score is <=250
PSR goes down a lot if match score is < 100

So generally, if you're making reasonable efforts, you will barely lose anything- or nothing at all - on a loss. It's much easier to gain PSR, even from minimal effort on wins. The result, unless you're honestly not grasping basic parts of the game, is you will gain PSR, and eventually Tier ranks. If you aren't, you're doing something wrong, and badly every game.

note.

If you want the answer without the reasoning read bellow the line ------

This is the major reason P.S.R doesn't work

The system itself is very good, just implemented badly, because of P.G.I lead developers total fail in understanding not just this game, but games in general.

He put the upward bias in P.S.R because he believes that if you play long enough we will all git gud enough to play high level standards.

He's utterly wrong in this.

This is Noob level development, and it's this kind of thinking, that has caused M.W.O to shrink to the core fanboi base it has now.

The fact that they continue to develop this game in a way that suggests there are five times the current population, proves without a doubt how delusional P.G.I's senior management continue to be.

Lets face it those that have been here this long no matter how much we point fingers at P.G.I are just a bunch of fanboi addicts, or we wouldn't continue to post and play, we'd just walk, because no sane person would put up with this for this number of years, without some form of dependency.

That out the way, players peak at various levels they don't all mature into e-comp level players.

So the upward bias is bad, because it puts players in matches they have no place to be, come here and complain about getting owned and feeling abused in chat by the next category, these people by the time they're T2 and T1 tend to stay and tend to complain because they're hooked but fed up with the try hards, again see next catagory.

The rabid fanboi try hard, that thinks he should be there and blames everyone and everything but there own lack of skill, are the usual culprits for this kind of thread, telling others with higher rating to git gud or go away.

Then we have the genuine good player, these are and I say usually the least likely to come here and complain about Q.P solo, because they're usually grouped, playing some fan league, practising, or with enough people that they can carry.

But they do come here and complain about lack of quality all the same.

Your wasting your time.

Asking for a full reset, this will not change thing, your reasoning is as poor as P.G.I's

Lets say they do one.

For the next two months possibly longer, it's total chaos.

Teams of mostly current T3, T4 and T5 with a few T1, and T2's get down graded facing of against sides of mostly T1,T2 and T3.

The game is even more chaos and even less fun for everyone.

After a while the games settle down, and those in the thin air at the top, and those in the bargain basement start to grumble about waiting times ( how ironic )

After a few more months people at both ends are yelling about wait times of 5 minutes to infinity and beyond ( I think we're there already by some of the threads I've seen, and they've only tightened up the tier levels)


So P.G.I open the gates and relax the Tiers and we go all over this mess again.

Take out the upward bias and when there are competitions and leagues, happening the wait times will be even worse, in the high tiers.

But wait didn't you say P.G.I screwed it by having upward bias.

Yes I did.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The correct thing to do is to have only the upward bias removed, a complete reset is very bad, because the wait times of the upper tiers would get far worse than they are now, after a couple of months.

For a few months things would stay the same, but without the upward bias eventually the fringe T1 players would fall away and go back into T2

You'll still see them when it's off peak but not so often

The fringe T2 would fall back into T3 and so eliminate them from being in any T1 match up.

This is where the biggest improvement to T1 matches would happen, because those fringe T2 players are the ones that tend not to carry their weight or yolo and suicide when they see comp people on the other side and die to get out the match.

Any other system used would have a deeply negative outcome, as those T1's and T2 not at the very top would take longer to progress with a full reset, with matches taking longer to form.

This should also help lower tier players as well, T5 will progress slower, as will T4, giving them longer to get a grip with the game, before facing experienced people, and those border line T3's fall back into T4 reducing wait times for them as well.


Using the current tightened system, the upward bias gone, and a slow removal of the people that were carried higher than they should be, is the only way to help the game quality in the long term.

In the short term will retain the current 'standard' rather than making it far worse and chaotic, than a full reset will.

Edited by Cathy, 11 September 2017 - 05:05 AM.

[Thorqemada]

kesmai, on 11 September 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

Ts ts ts
The only solution to the problem is:
QUADRUPEDS.

Noobs.

Only possible of MWO goes UE or another game engine afair...

[suffocater]

Thorqemada, on 11 September 2017 - 05:28 AM, said:

Only possible of MWO goes UE or another game engine afair...

That would be the best thing for MWO to happen....a man can dream.....

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

PSR needs to be taken on a per mech value. I aint carrying squat in my cutefoxes but I know I'll still have to. With this tightening that's exactly how I want to test it.

Shouldn't the 8v8 trial happened before this idea was even considered?

[Lykaon]

Has anyone considered a dynamic parameter based upon your current tier and the ier you will progress to?

What I mean is should the criteria for advancing in tiers treat all tiers the same? Jumping from 5 to 4 should not require the same degree of skill as say 2 to 1.As it is now ( IIRC) all you need is a match score at or above a certain value to advance on a win a higher value to remain equal on a loss and a higher value still to advance on loss. But isn't the match score values set the same for all tiers?

Going to throw some example numbers out not specifics.

Let's say you start as Tier 5 and advancing on a win require a match score of 100 to remain the same on a loss requires 200 and advance on a loss would require a 300 match score.

Advancing from tier 4 to 3 would require let's say 25% higher scores so 125 on a win 250 to remain the same and 375 to advance on a loss.

And we increase the values needed to attain the new tier. Combine this with a gradual tapering off of the upward advancement bias (so there is no bias from tier 3 to 2 and 2 to 1 but an upward bias from 5 to 4 and a slight bias from 4 to 3)

[kesmai]

Lykaon, on 11 September 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

Has anyone considered a dynamic parameter based upon your current tier and the ier you will progress to?

What I mean is should the criteria for advancing in tiers treat all tiers the same? Jumping from 5 to 4 should not require the same degree of skill as say 2 to 1.As it is now ( IIRC) all you need is a match score at or above a certain value to advance on a win a higher value to remain equal on a loss and a higher value still to advance on loss. But isn't the match score values set the same for all tiers?

Going to throw some example numbers out not specifics.

Let's say you start as Tier 5 and advancing on a win require a match score of 100 to remain the same on a loss requires 200 and advance on a loss would require a 300 match score.

Advancing from tier 4 to 3 would require let's say 25% higher scores so 125 on a win 250 to remain the same and 375 to advance on a loss.

And we increase the values needed to attain the new tier. Combine this with a gradual tapering off of the upward advancement bias (so there is no bias from tier 3 to 2 and 2 to 1 but an upward bias from 5 to 4 and a slight bias from 4 to 3)

I guess PGI will make the first manned mission to mars than this.

[kesmai]

Cathy, on 11 September 2017 - 05:04 AM, said:

note.

If you want the answer without the reasoning read bellow the line ------

This is the major reason P.S.R doesn't work

The system itself is very good, just implemented badly, because of P.G.I lead developers total fail in understanding not just this game, but games in general.

He put the upward bias in P.S.R because he believes that if you play long enough we will all git gud enough to play high level standards.

He's utterly wrong in this.

This is Noob level development, and it's this kind of thinking, that has caused M.W.O to shrink to the core fanboi base it has now.

The fact that they continue to develop this game in a way that suggests there are five times the current population, proves without a doubt how delusional P.G.I's senior management continue to be.

Lets face it those that have been here this long no matter how much we point fingers at P.G.I are just a bunch of fanboi addicts, or we wouldn't continue to post and play, we'd just walk, because no sane person would put up with this for this number of years, without some form of dependency.

That out the way, players peak at various levels they don't all mature into e-comp level players.

So the upward bias is bad, because it puts players in matches they have no place to be, come here and complain about getting owned and feeling abused in chat by the next category, these people by the time they're T2 and T1 tend to stay and tend to complain because they're hooked but fed up with the try hards, again see next catagory.

The rabid fanboi try hard, that thinks he should be there and blames everyone and everything but there own lack of skill, are the usual culprits for this kind of thread, telling others with higher rating to git gud or go away.

Then we have the genuine good player, these are and I say usually the least likely to come here and complain about Q.P solo, because they're usually grouped, playing some fan league, practising, or with enough people that they can carry.

But they do come here and complain about lack of quality all the same.

Your wasting your time.

Asking for a full reset, this will not change thing, your reasoning is as poor as P.G.I's

Lets say they do one.

For the next two months possibly longer, it's total chaos.

Teams of mostly current T3, T4 and T5 with a few T1, and T2's get down graded facing of against sides of mostly T1,T2 and T3.

The game is even more chaos and even less fun for everyone.

After a while the games settle down, and those in the thin air at the top, and those in the bargain basement start to grumble about waiting times ( how ironic )

After a few more months people at both ends are yelling about wait times of 5 minutes to infinity and beyond ( I think we're there already by some of the threads I've seen, and they've only tightened up the tier levels)


So P.G.I open the gates and relax the Tiers and we go all over this mess again.

Take out the upward bias and when there are competitions and leagues, happening the wait times will be even worse, in the high tiers.

But wait didn't you say P.G.I screwed it by having upward bias.

Yes I did.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The correct thing to do is to have only the upward bias removed, a complete reset is very bad, because the wait times of the upper tiers would get far worse than they are now, after a couple of months.

For a few months things would stay the same, but without the upward bias eventually the fringe T1 players would fall away and go back into T2

You'll still see them when it's off peak but not so often

The fringe T2 would fall back into T3 and so eliminate them from being in any T1 match up.

This is where the biggest improvement to T1 matches would happen, because those fringe T2 players are the ones that tend not to carry their weight or yolo and suicide when they see comp people on the other side and die to get out the match.

Any other system used would have a deeply negative outcome, as those T1's and T2 not at the very top would take longer to progress with a full reset, with matches taking longer to form.

This should also help lower tier players as well, T5 will progress slower, as will T4, giving them longer to get a grip with the game, before facing experienced people, and those border line T3's fall back into T4 reducing wait times for them as well.


Using the current tightened system, the upward bias gone, and a slow removal of the people that were carried higher than they should be, is the only way to help the game quality in the long term.

In the short term will retain the current 'standard' rather than making it far worse and chaotic, than a full reset will.

Way more radical would be a "savezone" for t5 and for the rest Darwin is the rule.
Or even get rid of those psr tiers at all. In the end this is a team based "thinking mans" shooter and not a sjw project.

[Mister Blastman]

Any reason to try the game right now? Or should I stick to playing Supreme Commander online?

[Brain Cancer]

Functionally, matches are unchanged other than slightly longer match times (for some).

I was getting some matches within 3 seconds of clicking, personally.

[Verkhne]

Simple; first pass by tiers then second pass use Jarl's list for average match score and make teams equal as possible. There would still be huge variance on people not playing their carry mechs or trying "weird" builds but think would be close ( and might frustrate top 100 players!!)

[BattleBunny]

After doing some solo Q the last few days, I am quite dissapointed in the aggro levels of fellow tier 1's

I eagerly tried solo Q after I read it changed, but still I see half the team not willing to fight or exclusively looking out for themselves.
The tier system itself is flawed, not the matchmaker.

[Blue Pheonix]

For me, I would not say MM is "tightening up". The matches that I have been playing have been incredibly lopsided both with wins and with losses. I am talking 12-4 or 4-12 matches (or worse) are fairly common for me now.

I am not sure what they did but for me things have gotten much worse.

Perhaps a re-do of how player skill is calculated is in order. Here is some of my suggestions:
https://mwomercs.com...-more-accurate/

Edited by Blue Pheonix, 11 September 2017 - 01:44 PM.