41 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Really don't get the initiative of this tho, it's not op at all. can only really do one thing. Not to mention it equipped 2 ppcs in it's standard loadout.
The C, can not carry anything else really. 5 er mediums?

You know what fine, give it some good pulse quirks then. There are far more unbalanced mechs in this game then the stunted mini-dire.

[Vxheous]

Warhawk Prime is tankier quirked, while Warhawk C is more heatgen quirked. Really up to preference which someone likes

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

Lol at the dart board, I think meta mechs has a post that about sums up pgis quirking
http://metamechs.com...-center-torsos/
I died laughing because it almost seems correct
I know it's a silly post but it should give you a good laugh

[FireStoat]

armyunit, on 10 September 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

SSSHHH don't talk about the warhawk or PGI will notice and nerf it

Too late. The skill tree picks of cool run and heat containment have a fix coming up with the patch on the 19th that will apply the bonus to all heat sinks (double, single) that a mech has, both inside and outside of the engine. This will be a substantial boost to all mechs, especially ones relying on energy weapons, and I'm absolutely certain we're going to see blanket nerfs across the board with heat quirk reduction on anything that moves.

What are the chances they'll overdo it with this? I'd say, pretty darned good.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Vxheous, on 13 September 2017 - 01:16 AM, said:

Warhawk Prime is tankier quirked, while Warhawk C is more heatgen quirked. Really up to preference which someone likes

The Prime isn't that much tankier, not enough to make up for 9% less heat gen. It used to be the best option for ERPPCs, but then they nerfed the Prime while leaving the C intact (I think with the skill tree patch) leaving the C just hands down better.

Kiiyor, on 10 September 2017 - 02:24 AM, said:

The 'Sphere Awesome "wins", but not by much.

The IS Awesome doesn't win, because it is using crappy IS tech. Warhawk C has been better than the Awesome for a little bit now.

Teer Kerensky, on 09 September 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

Well the prime also has some extra CT structure, but still C is probably better if you want to have 4 PPCs.

Anyone compared Warhawk to Marauder IIC, the literal variant?

The Marauder IIC is worse for PPCs, you need to be able to mount 11 extra DHS to be able to compete with the 13% heat gen the Warhawk C gets. The Supernova C would actually be the best option for a non-Warhawk quad PPC build because it has better mounts than the Warhawk and is tankier than the MAD-IIC.

JackalBeast, on 12 September 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

There are far more unbalanced mechs in this game then the stunted mini-dire.

Not really, the Warhawk C is actually one of the best assaults right now outside of the Deathstrike.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 September 2017 - 08:38 AM.

[SuperFunkTron]

Vxheous, on 13 September 2017 - 01:16 AM, said:

Warhawk Prime is tankier quirked, while Warhawk C is more heatgen quirked. Really up to preference which someone likes

I just found the quirks on smurfy's aren't 100% accurate. Using in game info, you are right that the Prime has an extra 11 structure in the CT where the C gets a laser hardpoint instead. That is arguably more useful that the extra 9 structure the C gets in each leg but it seems it really comes down to a heat vs velocity (AMS and missiles may factor in) rather than any real durability quirks.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jun Watarase, on 10 September 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

There is no reasoning other than PGI being bad at balancing. Its the same reason why some mechs with the best hitboxes in the game and high mounted torso hardpoints get uber armor quirks while mechs with bad hitboxes and low mounted hardpoints get nothing.

I'd love to hear what mechs you are referring to.

JackalBeast, on 12 September 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

Well, it is the size of a building, and it only has 5 hardpoints, all of which are energy and in low slung locations so there is that.
It's arms alone are the width of a small mech, and has 80% of it's firepower there.

Odd quirks? whatabout the Battlemaster-G and the 20% range quirk (10 on medium and 10 general range) on ER-mediums whilst having 8 hardpoints.

Actually the G only has 7 Energy hardpoints good for a breathtaking alpha of 50 (oh my!). Compared to the Marauder-IIC its a kitty cat.

And the Warhawk-C, while good for a different role, is better on the absolute scale anyway.

[Jackal Noble]

Hmmmk. The Warhawk is also friggin huge and has all low slung hard points, oh my.

Not sure how these things get off the ground sometimes. It literally has a 12.5% velocity quirk. and a moderate 8% heat gen quirk with some structure bonuses because again, it is the size of a building. Also being an omni, it has no ability to manipulate it's arms with PPCs equipped.

How. How is that in any way outrageous, or over powering or anything for that matter? That 12.5% brings the C-Erppc up to what 1687.5M? Sacrifice 2 DHS to throw in a TCII and you get up to the speed of the IS ERPPC?

hahaha.

I remember about the same time this past year when the forum had multiple threads about how crappy the wahk was and needed some TLC.

I'm not making this up, which is all the more amazing to me at how this is still floating about.

Edited by JackalBeast, 13 September 2017 - 10:31 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JackalBeast, on 13 September 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Not sure how these things get off the ground sometimes. It literally has a 12.5% velocity quirk. and a moderate 8% heat gen quirk

You aren't building it right if it only has 8%, it should have 13% which translates to about 11 extra DHS.

JackalBeast, on 13 September 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

How. How is that in any way outrageous, or over powering or anything for that matter? That 12.5% brings the C-Erppc up to what 1687.5M? Sacrifice 2 DHS to throw in a TCII and you get up to the speed of the IS ERPPC?

Or you could build it how TheMagician has it, with a TCV which gives it Gauss velocity. With 13% heat gen, you can afford to lose a couple of heat sinks to stack on more velocity (helps deal with poptarts which typically counter assaults).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 September 2017 - 10:35 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Where do you get 13%? it's set of 8 gives 4% heat gen quirk to each arm. Further, how the hell does that equate to 11 DHS??

I run mine with a TCII, as I like to actually move around and shoot things at a more rapid pace instead of shooting and waiting behind things. Never been a fan of poking.

I say that because the heat of 4 C-ERPPCs builds up quite rapidly, so I use as much heat effieciency as I can garner, and even then it runs hot. Yes, it is the premier ERPPC platform on the Clan side, but not because of hardpoint location, or hitboxes but because it is the only one that is semi-enjoyable to shoot them on.

Edited by JackalBeast, 13 September 2017 - 10:43 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JackalBeast, on 13 September 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

Where do you get 13%? it's set of 8 gives 4% heat gen quirk to each arm. Further, how the hell does that equate to 11 DHS?

The set of 8 gives +5%, the omnipods themselves give you 4% with or without the actual set.

It translates to 11 DHS because of how 13% heat gen lowers the maximum heat generated per second by 4 cERPPCs from 12.889 to 11.21333 leaving a difference of 1.67556, divide the difference by the amount of heat dissipated by a DHS every second (0.15) and you get the number of heat sinks needed to match the DPS gain (which is little over 11 DHS needed to match).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 September 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 September 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

The set of 8 gives +5%, the omnipods themselves give you 4% with or without the actual set.

It translates to 11 DHS because of how 13% heat gen lowers the maximum heat generated per second by 4 cERPPCs from 12.889 to 11.21333 leaving a difference of 1.67556, divide the difference by the amount of heat dissipated by a DHS every second (0.15) and you get the number of heat sinks needed to match the DPS gain (which is little over 11 DHS needed to match).

Dammit silver, you're right. In my haste I grabbed from smurfy and thought that it included that set of 8. At work and replied too quickly. So that 12.889 is the max heat gen off of the Skill Tree, correct?
Still doesn't change a thing about how it can only effectively run PPCs to be viable. I honestly don't care one way or another whether it gets nerfed or doesn't. Thanks for breakdown.

Also, good thing that the C-ERPPC had it's cooldown extended.

Funny enough is that for all this to hold true, ever since the set of 8 got brought in, you're pretty much self-limited anyways. but hey whatevs.

All that aside, between the Prime and the C, the quirks really aren't super odd. That's all I was trying say.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JackalBeast, on 13 September 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

So that 12.889 is the max heat gen off of the Skill Tree, correct?

That's before any skill tree non-sense, I avoid bringing that into the discussion because every mech has that available and the DPS increase it provides is ambivalent to heat load or sink count.

JackalBeast, on 13 September 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

All that aside, between the Prime and the C, the quirks really aren't super odd. That's all I was trying say.

The problem between the Prime and C is that the C's heat gen easily makes up for the velocity lost between the Prime because it frees up a lot of tonnage from DHS to throw on a higher TComp and still up with both better velocity and dissipation.

[Jackal Noble]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 September 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

That's before any skill tree non-sense, I avoid bringing that into the discussion because every mech has that available and the DPS increase it provides is ambivalent to heat load or sink count.


The problem between the Prime and C is that the C's heat gen easily makes up for the velocity lost between the Prime because it frees up a lot of tonnage from DHS to throw on a higher TComp and still up with both better velocity and dissipation.

Ok nice, I guess it just seems a bit nit picky ya know? to really harp between to variants of a fairly limited chassis. But ok on board with that.
Now the duncier part - C-ERPPC generates 14.5 heat and with 4 (haven't specifically tested this and maybe holds up with the funky extended cooldown) can't you chain fire a single ERPPC once every second? And if so wouldn't that lend to the heat value being in fact the rated 14.5?

[Jackal Noble]

Just leaving this out here and not relevant to current pandering, but remember anytime you throw a ER-PPC on a Clan Omni's arms you lose all movement in the arms save the ability to pan vertically.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JackalBeast, on 13 September 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Now the duncier part - C-ERPPC generates 14.5 heat and with 4 (haven't specifically tested this and maybe holds up with the funky extended cooldown) can't you chain fire a single ERPPC once every second? And if so wouldn't that lend to the heat value being in fact the rated 14.5?

Cooldown is 4.5 now, so you could only do it every 1.125s (9/8, so multiply the inverse by 14.5 and you get 12.889).

[Jackal Noble]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 September 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Cooldown is 4.5 now, so you could only do it every 1.125s (9/8, so multiply the inverse by 14.5 and you get 12.889).

Suspected as much, that just verifies it. Thank you.
That adds up over time adding a quarter second a salvo if firing 2x2. Being a sniper type weapon, not super relevant plus they are hot enough that the mech requires pause occasionally. That can definitely come into play as opponents close in, as I have experienced multiple times (fire dammit, fire!!!)
So on paper factoring out forced 4.5 s cooldown and looking at it from a purely heat gen vs heat gen quirk basis, the heat gen value is in fact 12.615 and the 13% garners an actual 1.885 heat gen deduction which could be considered the equivalent of 12.56 DHS.
Are there not Inner Sphere mechs with similar level heat gen reduction? curiosity there.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JackalBeast, on 13 September 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

Are there not Inner Sphere mechs with similar level heat gen reduction? curiosity there.

There are mechs with more, but at the same time, IS tech is simply less efficient for the tonnage spent translating to either less DPS, speed, armor, or something else.

[Jun Watarase]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 September 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

There are mechs with more, but at the same time, IS tech is simply less efficient for the tonnage spent translating to either less DPS, speed, armor, or something else.

Most clan mechs have hard locked engines/JJs/other useless stuff like MASC making them actually worse off than the "inferior" IS mechs. To top it off, many IS mechs are actually more agile than clan mechs (look at the cyclop's turn rate for example). Clan mechs usually have worse hitboxes to boot, with no shield arms.

Whenever people claim clan mechs are superior, they always ignore matchups like the executioner vs cyclops/mauler, direwolf vs annihilator/king crab, viper vs assassin, etc. And a ride humping battle master can easily outsnipe a warhawk because the warhawk has low mounted guns. Ever tried ridge humping with a warhawk? By the time your guns are clear to fire, you are taking fire from 4+ mechs. And your bad hitboxes pretty much means your side torso goes first.

And with the tonnage advantage in FP, i find it very hard to believe that any decent player could possibly lose to a clan mech 10-15 tons lighter. Explain to me how a warhammer/grasshopper could possibly lose to a mad dog for example? Or a black knight/marauder vs an EBJ, where the CT can be hit from the sides and no amount of torso twisting stops someone from focusing 100% of their damage just by aiming at the top mounted guns, which are basically like the ears on a catapault?

Unless you are eating massive laser vomit outside your range, you really have no reason to lose to a clan mech that is lighter than you by 10 tons. Its practically impossible. I love going up against clan mechs in QP with my IS mechs...i am pretty much guaranteed to win. Its not even a contest really, give the massive disparity in durabiliy and near total lack of PPFLD on the clan side. Its always funny seeing an EBJ round the corner and fire off a long duration laser alpha, only to run because their side torso armor is now red. That extra 10 kph literally does NOTHING to prevent you from taking damage, while an extra 30 or so CT armor + better hitboxes is massive. Feel free to shoot my shield arms from the side, while i can shoot your massive side torso whenever i want.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 13 September 2017 - 01:55 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jun Watarase, on 13 September 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

Most clan mechs have hard locked engines/JJs/other useless stuff like MASC making them actually worse off than the "inferior" IS mechs. To top it off, many IS mechs are actually more agile than clan mechs (look at the cyclop's turn rate for example). Clan mechs usually have worse hitboxes to boot, with no shield arms.

Whenever people claim clan mechs are superior, they always ignore matchups like the executioner vs cyclops/mauler, direwolf vs annihilator/king crab, viper vs assassin, etc. And a ride humping battle master can easily outsnipe a warhawk because the warhawk has low mounted guns. Ever tried ridge humping with a warhawk? By the time your guns are clear to fire, you are taking fire from 4+ mechs. And your bad hitboxes pretty much means your side torso goes first.

And with the tonnage advantage in FP, i find it very hard to believe that any decent player could possibly lose to a clan mech 10-15 tons lighter. Explain to me how a warhammer/grasshopper could possibly lose to a mad dog for example? Or a black knight/marauder vs an EBJ, where the CT can be hit from the sides and no amount of torso twisting stops someone from focusing 100% of their damage just by aiming at the top mounted guns, which are basically like the ears on a catapault?

Unless you are eating massive laser vomit outside your range, you really have no reason to lose to a clan mech that is lighter than you by 10 tons. Its practically impossible. I love going up against clan mechs in QP with my IS mechs...i am pretty much guaranteed to win. Its not even a contest really, give the massive disparity in durabiliy and near total lack of PPFLD on the clan side. Its always funny seeing an EBJ round the corner and fire off a long duration laser alpha, only to run because their side torso armor is now red. That extra 10 kph literally does NOTHING to prevent you from taking damage, while an extra 30 or so CT armor + better hitboxes is massive. Feel free to shoot my shield arms from the side, while i can shoot your massive side torso whenever i want.

There are so many refutable points in this post, but god that takes so much time and its just gonna fall on deaf ears anyway because for some reason you think you are smarter than everyone else and really understand how this game works.

Once you realize that the only group of players that refuses to accept that the top mechs in the game are Clan mechs are Clan loyalist players, you might begin to consider that your "observations" are not reflecting reality.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 September 2017 - 03:47 PM.