54 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

SeventhSL, on 10 September 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

I played in a time where MWO had no ghost heat. Believe me you really don't want to go back there, espesically now there is clan mechs in the game.

Firing 7-8x cERLL at once for a long-range engagement.

RIP IS.

[SeventhSL]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 September 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

Firing 7-8x cERLL at once for a long-range engagement.

RIP IS.

Ha ha.... yep not to mention the epic C-ERPPC poptarting that would be going on.

[Stf Sgt Marblez]

Who else wants to run a direstar if they do end up dropping host heat? (Which pgi prly wont remove because reasons.)

[Khobai]

energy draw couldve worked if they didnt limit assaults to having the same max energy as lights

that killed energy draw for me when lights were able to do the same max damage as assaults, why was that even a thing?

the more a mech weighs the more max energy it shouldve had.

base it on a formula like max energy = 25 + 25% of a mech's tonnage + any max energy quirks the mech might have.

so a locust would have 30 energy
an atlas would have 50 energy

etc...

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2017 - 10:22 PM.

[Trissila]

Ghost Heat is a horrible, clumsy kludge.

But it is 100% necessary given PGI's insistence on using TT damage values for gameplay that is completely different from how TT combat plays out.

It is already entirely possible to fire an 80+ point alpha without breaking Ghost Heat.

If Ghost Heat just wasn't a thing? You'd have 'mechs firing triple-digit alphas from over 500 meters away. Clan mechs would be pumping out nearly triple digits from 800+ meters. Assaults would be getting instagibbed the moment they exposed any part of their 'mech.

Ghost Heat has to stay, unless and until PGI starts altering damage values away from TT to account for the increased accuracy of MWO.

[Sjorpha]

CaptainTeem0, on 10 September 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

Did I asked ya? No.

Yes you did, making a post in a public forum means you are asking everybody, you don't get to pick and choose who has a say in matter.

Also: No.

Edited by Sjorpha, 10 September 2017 - 09:41 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Honestly I kind of agree with removing ghost heat.

You'd unleash builds like the 6 ASRM6+ ASRM4 Cyclops, but the alpha would be no higher than the Scorch's 88, and would run hotter already. You could fire 12 CSPL for 48 damage at once, or 6 MPL for 42 damage at once with longer range and much less heat. You could fire 4 ERLL for 44 damage and 16 tons of weapon or your 6 tons of ERML for 42 damage, just paying for range via tonnage dearly. Before gauss plus ERPPC ghost heat link I could have compared 5 ERPPC to the combo and just mentioned how its nearly unuseably hot.

The only build that seems to really warrant ghost heat is dual gauss+dual ERPPC combo due to how it can be used in a match, and honestly even then I'm questioning if it really deserves the ghost heat, as its 36 tons of weapons alone, 4 tons of ammo, and you still need a lot of heatsinks to keep it cool if you plan to use those 2 ERPPCs, so you're looking at 50 tons of weaponry for the system to work, and you have the PPFLD, but you don't have the DPS of UAC builds and you don't have pure alpha of laser+gauss builds.


I just really don't see the point of ghost heat, people just make work arounds that function better or approximately the same depending on the situation, and the few really actually powerful builds that are blocked by ghost heat are only even possible on a few 100 ton mechs. I'm really not even use dual gauss+dual erppc mix with its 50 damage ppfld even really compares to the Deathstrike's current dual gauss + 64+ damage laser alpha, sure its not PPFLD, but its about double the total damage, and with mobility nerfs I'm sure at least 50 points of damage is going into one location you aimed at.

If people don't agree with removing ghost heat entirely, how about just removing ghost heat from some silly combinations, for example dual AC20s, for what reason should someone who brings 2 short range, huge, ammo hungry, ballistic cannons not be able to fire 40 points of damage up close while someone running 6 tons of lasers can fire over 40 damage at nearly double teh range? The opportunity cost here is questionable. Why do micro lasers even have ghost heat at all?

Yeonne Greene, on 10 September 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

Firing 7-8x cERLL at once for a long-range engagement.

RIP IS.

Thinking about it, maybe rather than a total removal of ghost heat, a normalization is in order. Something like allowing 4 ERLL to fire at once and give IS 5 or something. People bring those build for long range combat anyway, firing in groups to avoid ghost heat. Its just kind of weird to me when I compare it to 6 ERML, similar alpha without ghost heat, half the range and half the alpha before ghost heat. Which sounds sort of balanced, but when you look at the 16 ton cost in weight compared to 6, I'd think that the 10 tons would have the ERLL covered on cons

Like the pros vs cons goes:
Pros:
Longer range

Cons:
-Half damage alpha unless you fire through ghost heat
-10 tons heavier
-more heat per second
-less DPS

I just don't see the reason to keep beating the thing over the head here with such a low ghost heat limit.

Edited by Dakota1000, 10 September 2017 - 10:03 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 10 September 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

Thinking about it, maybe rather than a total removal of ghost heat, a normalization is in order. Something like allowing 4 ERLL to fire at once and give IS 5 or something. People bring those build for long range combat anyway, firing in groups to avoid ghost heat. Its just kind of weird to me when I compare it to 6 ERML, similar alpha without ghost heat, half the range and half the alpha before ghost heat. Which sounds sort of balanced, but when you look at the 16 ton cost in weight compared to 6, I'd think that the 10 tons would have the ERLL covered on cons

Like the pros vs cons goes:
Pros:
Longer range

Cons:
-Half damage alpha unless you fire through ghost heat
-10 tons heavier
-more heat per second
-less DPS

I just don't see the reason to keep beating the thing over the head here with such a low ghost heat limit.

Doesn't work that way. Letting the IS fire 5 ERLL together doesn't do **** for them because that's 25 tons and 10 slots of guns instead of 16 tons and 4 slots, and the IS would never, ever, ever, ever be able to cool that to any competitive degree without slapping the heat down, too. The only reason it works now is precisely because the Clans get rekt by the heat efficiency from ghost and must also stagger-fire, otherwise you throw on the 30-32 sinks, a TC1 through 3, and trololo your way to victory trading 55 against 45 with dramatically superior maximum and sustained DPS. The 6x ERLL SNV already out-classes the 5x ERLL BLR with superior front-forward geo and superior output.

As for the comparison against ERML, it's the nature of the range bracket. You don't want your extreme range options to be able to trade as well as your mid-range options, otherwise we just take the longest possible range all the time. Hell, we already do that, but we do so allowing for the fact that ERML will out-trade ERLL at mid-range because of the limitations in-place, ergo we take ERML where appropriate. IS limitations are looser because they depend entirely on those big lasers to get a volley that's competitive with even just cERML, since firing 8x isERML together incurs more heat than 6x cERML.

[Vellron2005]

CaptainTeem0, on 10 September 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Firstly I was about "let's nerf those friggin MG's" but, than I think, how many time I died from them? 2-4 in a whole month. Kek. Not asolid reason for "nerf call", but then... who mostly use over-DPS weapons and stay intact? Lights. So, it's agenda against lights. No fair IMO. So what is it...
Agenda against a complex, over-DPS weapons on extremely fast platforms to nerf their "intact" part.
Than comes a question: - How to "nerf" the complex "fo-sho"? Many ways, but most solid is: - UNLEASH THE FIRE POWER.
How to do that? REMOVE THE GHOSTHEAT - TOTALY. From all weapons, any linkage and etc. Just delete GH like it never was.

So... the AGENDA IS ABOUT: - DELETE THE GHOSTHEAT!

You're just asking to get 4 x Gauss to the face, aren't you?

Remove Ghost heat?

Please, think about it one more time..

and then apply the NO.

[Nema Nabojiv]

6 PPCs, 4 gauss, 2 UAC20s, 6 ERLL? No thanks.
Ghost heat is not ideal but not having it would be worse.

[Wildstreak]

CaptainTeem0, on 10 September 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

So... the AGENDA IS ABOUT: - DELETE THE GHOSTHEAT!

[GA1NAX]

Nema Nabojiv, on 11 September 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

6 PPCs, 4 gauss, 2 UAC20s, 6 ERLL? No thanks.
Ghost heat is not ideal but not having it would be worse.

4xHPPC, 6xLPL, 6xHeLL... 2 or even 4xAC20, MRM120... Why not? Atleast those mechs who can carry that Firepower gonna profit, and no one gonna afraid of little crap with 8 or more machineguns.
Engagements would be more dynamic, short and sharp.

Edited by GA1NAX, 11 September 2017 - 02:04 AM.

[AppleseeN]

Full removal of GH is bad, but some restrictions lifting on "firing at a time" would be nice like:

AC20 not more than 2
UAC/CUAC20 not more than 2
UAC/CUAC10 not more than 4
CLPL/ERLL/CERLL/HeLL not more than 3 for Clans and 4 for IS
ML/CERML/ERML/MPL/CMPL not more than 8
HML not more than 6
PPC/ERPPC/HPPC/CERPPC... etc. not more than 3-4.

Missiles remove GH totaly.

Edited by AppleseeN, 11 September 2017 - 02:38 AM.

[AppleseeN]

Nema Nabojiv, on 11 September 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

4 gauss,

Kid is so "square minded" that he forgot the fact that: - WE HAVE LEGGIT GAUSSZILLA atm., even two of them, one Clan, one IS.

[Nema Nabojiv]

We have 4xERPPC WHK Prime for ages, yet it doesnt mean its not susceptible to ghostheat.

[Gladius Vittoris]

OP is good with anime..... go to watch some anime, dude.
It's the only thing you are good at (good stats, btw)

#nobalancebypotatoes

[InvictusLee]

Spheroid, on 10 September 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

I don't think you are going to have much fun in an environment of massed PPCs and heavy lasers. Think very carefully about what you are proposing.

I recommend no change to current meta.

It would change TTK completely. Games would go much much muuuch faster. It would mean I could fire my UAC 20's almost nonstop cause chainfire doesnt lock up as quickly as dual firing.

[Bigbacon]

the game need MORE heat not less or negative side effects of heat. one of the biggest issues with the game right now is massive alpha strikes that don't immediately melt your mech to the ground but allow you to keep going and do it again almost immediately.

[Asym]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 September 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

We have 72-94-point blasts waiting over every ridge now coming from a single 'Mech. You talk like this isn't already the reality of the game. Please, without any condescending tone here, go watch some competitive games.

Again, GH is "technical bureaucracy"; the only deliverable bureaucracy deleivers is more bureaucracy; that increases compounded errors...

Soak that in lad; that's a business reality in play all over the world in corporate America and the world economy....

Do you realize that the big e-sport games had to first establish the game as a non-competitive market??? You do realize that, I hope. Where do you think the money comes from? Hmmmm??? It's not competitive players boyo........it's guys like me who would invest time and maybe, money to play a game I like....

Sad to say, MWO isn't "that game" and statistically, MWO is failing if ANY portion of the numbers released in this forum are close.........

The answer is to de-evolve the game back to it's best form........ that breaks the cycle of "linear risk" and allows the customer base a chance to re-evaluate the "product" without the compounded errors...... YES, it would be brutal but logical.... Yes, it would make the meta crowd cry and scamper to another."easier" format. Who cares if the average players get back what they "owned"? Products and performance that was taken from them without their concent to 'redistrubute' those benefits to others..... Once you start down that path, it gets out of control and the masses start to scream and in games, leave......

Yes, my friend, there'd be an Alpha strike around every turn.......till we figure out how not to be seen and if seen, survive.... Teamwork would be a requirement of survival......

Sorry I'm so long winded but, I'm really old and what I've said isn't "whimsey"; it's a business reality we can either accept and flourish or dwindle and find another game....

Edited by Asym, 11 September 2017 - 05:33 AM.

[Trissila]

Asym, on 11 September 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

Yes, my friend, there'd be an Alpha strike around every turn.......till we figure out how not to be seen and if seen, survive.... Teamwork would be a requirement of survival......

Those are nice words, but they do not reflect reality.

You cannot "figure out how not to be seen". At some point you have to attack the enemy, and if that enemy is not the world's most rotten potato, they will see you too. And there will be no surviving if you are seen. You will be hit with a triple-digit alpha (or very high double-digit from a click away) and GG'd into the ground.