71 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

So, mulling over the LRMs, i've been pondering why it's considered as bad. There's a multitude of counters such as AMS and Cover, even ECM too. It requires locks to be effective, and needs sustained stare to retain lock. While it goes over terrain, it takes a long time to get there, and incoming missiles are announced to the target. Add in the spread damage, that you couldn't compensate by getting closer like SRMs. With how easy to counter LRMs, it's usually more about targets making mistakes, than the user being good.

I don't say that LRMs are OP, though i found them to be annoying. Players would thoughtlessly just put so much missile-racks and spam their way, and with the feature of indirect fire allows terribad to lurm from behind with little movement or involvement in sharing armor -- they just need locks. Because of spamming, even with bad weapons they could get results.

I want to somehow make LRMs less bad, and i have an idea of how to make it work.

Quote

> 1.5x Missile Damage - 1.5 DMG/Missile
> 1.5x Missile Velocity - Velocity to 240
> 1.5x Missile Health
> 1.50x Recycle Duration - IS-LRM: 4.875 / 5.55 / 6.00 / 6.45 and C-LRM: 5.25 / 6.00 / 6.45 / 6.9 - DPS remains the same.
> LRM 15 and LRM20 has the same spread as the LRM 10 and 5
> C-LRM 15 and C-LRM20 has the same spread as the C-LRM 10 and 5
> Ammo from 180 to 120 per ton, the damage/ammo ton remains the same.

This spamming is something I would like to modify. My general aim is to put more weight with the LRMs' volley, and reduce rate of fire. By doing so, LRMs couldn't chain as effectively. The LRMs could deal a lot more meaningful damage, with the long cooldown as the drawback. This should put a drastic shift on how LRMs are used, and how people build mechs with LRMs.

Because it's not capable of just raining the battlefield, the LRMs takes a bit more supplementary role than being completely viable as a primary weapon that you can just boat. The increased damage means that you don't need to opt as much tube count for a good alpha damage -- also at the same case as the Rocket Launcher having it's damage boosted, that is done as well because of the LRMs being less meaningful due to the doubled armor, as the Rocket Launchers would be less meaningful if they retained their lore damage.

People would need to put better thought with each launch just as a sniper needs good thought with each shot. But should they happen to land a volley/shot, it would be meaningful and that would be the challenge. As opposed of just hurling lots of missiles hoping for a result, this would at least make the LRM's damage decent if you can make it land.

Another addition is that the removal of the need of sustained missile-lock to guide missiles, you only need it to launch. You just need to retain target lock to have your missiles guided.

What do you think?

NEW IDEA:

Quote

TAG:

When active provides Velocity boost. It also interferes with personal LRM's guidance system, making the LRM go where you point it to go, and it will only home at a target properly if your TAG beam is actually on it.

You know how you could steer the Half-Life Rocket Launcher? Think of it like that if you have TAG currently active, but without a targeted mech.



What do you think?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 October 2017 - 09:00 PM.

[InvictusLee]

I love this idea!

Honestly, LRMS are deadly in the hands of players who actually know how to use them.
If they clan lrms functioned less like streamers and all LRMS simply had their velocities and ranges tweaked a little.. just a little, and they would be massively OP.

[metallio]

I think you need to keep the damage. Tweaking LRMs so they're good at higher levels while not making them ridiculously OP is...difficult.

I'd like to:
1) Remove the minimum range
2) Massively tweak velocity. Have them increase in velocity as they travel; start with extremely slow missiles that rapidly move up to PPC speeds.
3) No locks within 180m.
4) Remove the missile warning.
5) Eliminate target retention and radar dep.

This leaves you with a missile that's still hard to use in brawling range but that's still capable of doing damage. It's something you can lob over your team-mate's heads while packed around a corner you're having trouble turning while being able to still effectively strike at long ranges. The low speed at low range makes them vulnerable to AMS while at longer ranges (where they're supposed to be effective) AMS is less effective due to their speed.

They'll still spread. They'll still be the choice for people with terrible computers, physical disabilities, and new folks who are having trouble staying alive on the front line...but within their effective range they'll be...effective. Using ECM and cover still works. Getting caught in the open will still kill you but once you get to cover they'll lose the lock fairly quickly all while not having a quirk that makes missiles wholly useless (radar dep).

In the midst of this it might be a good idea to give them ATM style trajectories. It removes most of the "I'll hide and lob bombs all day" capacity while still leaving them capable of indirect fire.

Not that any of this will ever happen but it's fun to think about.

[C E Dwyer]

LRM's don't need a buff or a nerf.

They just need to be used properly, which rarely happens in Q.P

[kesmai]

OMG
WTF
...

The quality of topics are in a steep decline.
Generally monday seems to be the worst day of the week.

To the OP:
NO.

[El Bandito]

More damage in return for longer cooldown has been suggested many times before, and I agree with it. LRMs also need more velocity for sure. 200 m/s should be good baseline, then remove any LRM velocity quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 September 2017 - 06:12 AM.

[Roadbuster]

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

Another addition is that the removal of the need of sustained missile-lock to guide missiles, you only need it to launch. You just need to retain target lock to have your missiles guided.

This is a good idea.
You could at least twist the torso to spread incomming damage till the next volley is ready.

More damage with longer cooldown...I'm on the fence about this one.

Higher missile velocity, yes please.

More missile health, nope.
People finally started using AMS. Don't make it useless again.

[Dread Render]

metallio, on 11 September 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

I think you need to keep the damage. Tweaking LRMs so they're good at higher levels while not making them ridiculously OP is...difficult.

I'd like to:
1) Remove the minimum range
2) Massively tweak velocity. Have them increase in velocity as they travel; start with extremely slow missiles that rapidly move up to PPC speeds.
3) No locks within 180m.
4) Remove the missile warning.
5) Eliminate target retention and radar dep.

.........

ROFL

[Brain Cancer]

Up the velocity (more on direct fire, less on IDF), have LRMs fire flat when unlocked, normalize clustering.

Voila. You just improved LRMs.

[Lykaon]

Brain Cancer, on 11 September 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

Up the velocity (more on direct fire, less on IDF), have LRMs fire flat when unlocked, normalize clustering.

Voila. You just improved LRMs.

I would love to see LRMs have dynamic projectile speed based upon how they are fired.

No lock they fire straight ahead with a 450 mps velocity (about as fast as MRMs)
Lock and direct LOS arced trajectory and a 300 mps velocity
Locked with direct LOS w/ Artemis arced trajectory and 450 mps
Locked with no direct LOS arced trajectory and 160 mps velocity (as LRMs are now)

We would want a means of turning locking off to dumb fire without getting an accidental and unwanted lock or I guess you could simply not target your intended victim.

Edited by Lykaon, 11 September 2017 - 07:00 AM.

[Davegt27]

coming to a Mech near you lol

[Verilligo]

Personally, I see the trouble with LRMs as promoting poor team gameplay while also being a weapon that just isn't very powerful. Sure, it sandblasts armor, but LRMs simply don't kill and spread damage over so much of a mech that unless you fire All The Missiles the damage you do often isn't significant in actually downing a target. So what I would do would be a combination of encouraging teamwork while also making the weapon, played properly, actually deadly.

The best way of doing this, without screwing with damage numbers and compounding people's issues with TTK, is focusing on spread. To start, everyone complains about the LRM boat that stays in the back and never joins the front lines or shares armor, so why not have a dynamic spread component? LRMs spread worse the closer to max range you are such that they might even be worse than they are now, but once you get within half-ish of max your spread is improved over present numbers. I would suggest some numbers, but I don't want "exact" numbers to be the focal point of conversation. This would encourage the boats to move up with the team.

To further focus in on the teamwork concept, I would suggest giving improvements to TAG and NARC. I'd suggest giving a buff to NARC's ability to improve spread on LRMs, such that being NARC'd really makes for a dangerous situation to be in. To improve TAG... I actually wouldn't give it a buff to its spread-narrowing ability, but instead make the TAG laser pick specific body parts to direct missiles to. If you want to focus your LRMs into the right side torso? Mark it with the TAG. Suddenly the stealth Raven with TAG and NARC is WAY more threatening to your team.

You can consider giving the LRMs themselves some straight buffs, too. Personally, I would give the IS a straight spread reduction to make up for the heavier weight and minimum range, and then give the Clans a velocity increase to make up for their streaming nature. At the end of the day, the idea is that if you've been NARC'd and TAG'd by an IS LRM20+Artemis within half of max range, all 20 damage should go to the location you've been TAG'd at. An LRM20 should not just be shrugged off and LRM boats should actually contribute to team success beyond simply forcing people into cover. Especially with as many counters as there are, LRMs need the help to become -viable- weapons, rather than liabilities.

There are probably better alternatives, but I'm uncertain what is possible within the scope of the engine and some of those alternatives would be considerably more drastic in affecting the way the weapon system functions overall.

[Vxheous]

So basically you want to bring about another Lrmageddon. No, just No.

[Lostdragon]

A few changes I think would make LRMs a lot better:

1. TAG can guide missiles without lock. This opens up a lot of possibilities and makes playing from the first ornsecond line a lot more viable against peeking mechs.

2. Missiles in flight get redirected to a newly locked target. Goes along with #1 to create more efficiency, a lot of volleys get wasted when if they could be redirected they would be more effective.

3. Velocity needs a bit of an increase.


Those three things would likely not be that hard to implement and would do a lot to increase the skill ceiling of missiles and make them better at higher end play.

[Brain Cancer]

Any improvement to LRMs is called a "lurmageddon".

Guided weapons are considered super dangerous to improve, despite having serious reaction drawbacks (I'm a missile boater and I still poke lurmtaters to death without taking an LRM hit), uncontrollable spread (unlike SRMs or LB-X) that renders them inefficient damage delivery, miserable accuracy compared to most direct fire weapons, and so on.

And yet, despite being a weapon no comp-level player would install other than for the lulz, the LRM is considered a sleeping tiger waiting for that tiny improvement to destroy MWO, despite the fact that all "lurmageddons" were unintentional bugs in the first place.

It is the weapon placed upon the pedestal labeled "balance by potato".

[Lyoto Machida]

As an LRM user, I'd love 240m/s but you should have been here for the crying when they went up to 175m/s.

[Verilligo]

Vxheous, on 11 September 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

So basically you want to bring about another Lrmageddon. No, just No.

With all due respect, LRMs are not a good weapon right now. They're bad. Nobody that knows what they're doing takes LRMs as a serious weapon. Something HAS to be done about them, either an improvement or a full mechanics change, such that they are at least worth the weight invested. Some people who play this game happen to like playing with LRMs, or have difficulties that effectively demand they take LRMs, and they are demonized by the community because the weapon itself blows chunks.

People are going to take LRMs whether they're fixed or not. Do you want to have to carry those people or would you like to help them carry themselves and promote a better team cohesion in the process?

[Rayden Wolf]

metallio, on 11 September 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

I think you need to keep the damage. Tweaking LRMs so they're good at higher levels while not making them ridiculously OP is...difficult.

I'd like to:
1) Remove the minimum range
2) Massively tweak velocity. Have them increase in velocity as they travel; start with extremely slow missiles that rapidly move up to PPC speeds.
3) No locks within 180m.
4) Remove the missile warning.
5) Eliminate target retention and radar dep.

This leaves you with a missile that's still hard to use in brawling range but that's still capable of doing damage. It's something you can lob over your team-mate's heads while packed around a corner you're having trouble turning while being able to still effectively strike at long ranges. The low speed at low range makes them vulnerable to AMS while at longer ranges (where they're supposed to be effective) AMS is less effective due to their speed.

They'll still spread. They'll still be the choice for people with terrible computers, physical disabilities, and new folks who are having trouble staying alive on the front line...but within their effective range they'll be...effective. Using ECM and cover still works. Getting caught in the open will still kill you but once you get to cover they'll lose the lock fairly quickly all while not having a quirk that makes missiles wholly useless (radar dep).

In the midst of this it might be a good idea to give them ATM style trajectories. It removes most of the "I'll hide and lob bombs all day" capacity while still leaving them capable of indirect fire.

Not that any of this will ever happen but it's fun to think about.

If i were you, i would learn to aim. Isnt that hard an does not destroy other players game experience.

[Trissila]

Brain Cancer, on 11 September 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Any improvement to LRMs is called a "lurmageddon".

Guided weapons are considered super dangerous to improve, despite having serious reaction drawbacks (I'm a missile boater and I still poke lurmtaters to death without taking an LRM hit), uncontrollable spread (unlike SRMs or LB-X) that renders them inefficient damage delivery, miserable accuracy compared to most direct fire weapons, and so on.

And yet, despite being a weapon no comp-level player would install other than for the lulz, the LRM is considered a sleeping tiger waiting for that tiny improvement to destroy MWO, despite the fact that all "lurmageddons" were unintentional bugs in the first place.

It is the weapon placed upon the pedestal labeled "balance by potato".

LRMs, as currently implemented, would be a LOT more effective in the hands of actually decent players than they are in the hands of passive artillery piece spuds.

But the problem is that, in the situation in which you can make them effective (~300 meters, Artemis LoS shots), direct-fire weapons are even more effective, so players interested in being effective take those instead.

I almost never take LRM hits unless I get bored and push FAR more aggressively than I should. I get lots of missiles fired at me, but very few actual hits. Yet when I was running a TBR build with two LRM10 racks as supplementals, I landed volleys all the time -- because I was using them in that situation I described. Direct LoS as often as possible, short-mid range, no time for enemies to dodge and relatively little spread (confined to torsos instead of all over the 'mech).

But the simple fact is that a heavy laser fits in that role and performs better. It doesn't give me the occasional out-of-LoS damage that the missiles gave me, but the tradeoff is more than worth it in matches that aren't entirely passive poking. You can get work done with the LRMs, and it's fine for lower tiers, but as your opponents get better you stop being able to afford that effort resulting in less damage.

But honestly? That tradeoff is fine. If it was just as effective as a direct-fire weapon while also providing out-of-LoS capabilities, why would you ever take anything else?

They're just in an awkward spot as a weapon system. They CAN be devastating, but that devastation comes with a frankly unacceptable level of risk; somebody's got to be the NARC/TAG bot, and they pretty much have to be alone behind enemy lines and hope that nobody comes to kick their teeth in. And they're barely rewarded for their risk, ESPECIALLY compared to all the launchers sitting safe behind their hills getting all that free damage. I dunno if that's a team dynamic that should really be encouraged.

[Brain Cancer]

I'm one of those weirdos.

Then again, I'm also that weirdo backing up the LRMs with ATMs, so a 300m shot is what I want anyway, followed by that lovely 63 damage slap from a sweet spot ATM21.

LRMs, even accurate ones would never be efficient. Uncontrollable spread insures it, lock-on time always applies an accuracy penalty, damage reduction is easy, and you can screw up accuracy still further with ECM.