95 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

For those of you who aren't for reading walls of text, it goes like this;

I feel like some mechs are losing their Unique touch, and I'd like to see them be adjusted to fit the meta using their unique weapons/tech.


Now, let's go onto the subject.

It's not that it's a bad thing for freedom to customize, it's moreover the ideal that mechs that were known for their unique weapon, majority of the time, do not use that weapon. A good example would be the Warhammer; it's known for it's PPCs, but really, do we really see the use of the regular PPCs, in all honesty?

No, we see the usual meta of laser vomit or Dual guass. I feel like PGI isn't.... I don't think I'm putting this right.... but not trying to close the gap between meta and lore?

Let's go back to the Warhammer again. Like all other mechs; Nerfs back then minimized most offensive quirks. Why not Buff PPC (regular) quirks only for it? Why not buff if more? to be fair, those arms are low, and I'd think by closing, again, the gap between mechs using their iconic original weapons would make the game more interesting.

I hate to say it again, but how many Warhammers do you see in competitive or even most regular matches Using regular PPCs by a player who knows how to play the game? And no, I'm not talking about those who like using non-meta builds, the stock builds, I'm talking about those other players who like to use weapons on a certain mech because it works. PPCs don't work well on the warhmammer. at all. I mean just read the description of the 6R itself;

Quote

The primary weapons on the Warhammer 6R were a pair of arm-mounted Donal PPCs, which used highly charged accelerated particles to cause significant amounts of damage to enemy 'Mechs at long ranges.

Primary.... Hmm. PRIMARY. weapons. hmmm.......

I dunno, it could be just me in all honesty. Meta gets boring after awhile. This game has to me multiple times. And I feel like this is one of the main reasons.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Scout Derek, on 12 September 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

PPCs don't work well on the warhmammer. at all. I mean just read the description of the 6R itself;

Huh? Pretty sure the 6R is still best built around PPCs/(U)AC5 spam. Not that I disagree that flavor has been an issue for MWO (especially with customization as free and variants as numerous as we have now).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2017 - 03:19 PM.

[Athom83]

I mean, I carry around HPPCs in the arms of mine.

[Scout Derek]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

Huh? Pretty sure the 6R is still best built around PPCs/(U)AC5 spam. Not that I disagree that flavor has been an issue for MWO (especially with customization as free and variants as numerous as we have now).

As far as the PPCs being alone? No, they don't work well.

And that PPC AC build is still a thing? I see more laser vomit than it these days.

[sycocys]

Flavor and variety took a big hit when they released clan mechs with customizable pods. It was on that trend before, but that was more due to the fact the game was already starting to get oversatuated with mechs and no content to make varied/specialized loadouts other than current meta a useful aspect of the game.

[The6thMessenger]

Scout Derek, on 12 September 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

And that PPC AC build is still a thing? I see more laser vomit than it these days.

I still do it. I never really found other fun troll builds on the warhammer to try anyways.

[MadRover]

Some did due to nerf bombs that made no sense imho. We still remember the KDK nerf because of the KDK-3 dakka build?

[Kiiyor]

Scout Derek, on 12 September 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

No, we see the usual meta of laser vomit or Dual guass. I feel like PGI isn't.... I don't think I'm putting this right.... but not trying to close the gap between meta and lore?

I think I get what you mean, but I don't think there's a lot that can be done without limiting customization further. We have to remember that all the lore is based around TT, which only accounts for the weapon systems installed on a mech, and doesn't take into effect the general usability of those weapons or things like hitbox size, and hardpoint numbers, placement and spacing. Adherence to lore can only take you so far if your build is neutered because of it.

PPC's are a fun weapon, but in the case of the Whammy, there are better options than a primary PPC build (though AC5's and peeps are popular). You could probably give it Awesome level PPC quirks, and people still likely wouldn't go all out with them.

The lore and meta gap is a double edged sword, I think.

If PGI gives mechs weapon quirks based around lore, people complain about the quirks limiting customization. If mechs are given generalist quirks, people complain about mechs becoming generalized. If mechs have their quirks removed completely, people complain about them under performing based on their performance in lore. If PGI tries something more wild like Omnimech set bonuses to reward builds being closer to lore, people ignore them.

Hmmm, that's more than double edged. A quad edged sword. There's probably more edges out there too.

[Gas Guzzler]

Scout Derek, on 12 September 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

As far as the PPCs being alone? No, they don't work well.

And that PPC AC build is still a thing? I see more laser vomit than it these days.

Yeah it is, but I like it on the MAD-3R more nowadays.

[Bud Crue]

Scout Derek, on 12 September 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

I feel like some mechs are losing their Unique touch, and I'd like to see them be adjusted to fit the meta using their unique weapons/tech.

...and exposition.

To me it isn't about any "unique touch" or even about a some tie in with lore,but rather its the vanilification of the mechs and weapons. When every thing is the equally viable then what sets the weapons and builds and mechs apart is nothing more than hardpoint numbers and heights...and of course quirks. And all of that is filtered through game mechanisms like Ghost Heat.

Lore or any "gap" between the meta and lore cannot be closed or even accounted for in such an environment, not when the primary goal is in fact "balance".

Lore was never balanced. Meta, by definition cannot be balanced either.

That gap can't close because that gap is irrelevant to the design/balance goals of this game wherein the Devs want/need as much as possible to be equivalent in terms of cost/benefit/relative value.

[AnTi90d]

I agree.

I'd like to see more quirk incentives to use a variety of weapons on different chassis; (IMO, whether it goes with lore or not.. just to encourage some more build diversity.)

After the Skill Maze, we have too many mech variants that are basically the same thing, plus or minus a hardpoint. When they scaled back quirks to prevent OP quirk stacking, PGI also removed some of what made the different variants.. different.

[Bud Crue]

AnTi90d, on 12 September 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

I agree.

I'd like to see more quirk incentives to use a variety of weapons on different chassis; (IMO, whether it goes with lore or not.. just to encourage some more build diversity.)

After the Skill Maze, we have too many mech variants that are basically the same thing, plus or minus a hardpoint. When they scaled back quirks to prevent OP quirk stacking, PGI also removed some of what made the different variants.. different.

This immediately made me think of the Black Knights.

The pre-skills tree quirks (ERPPC and PPC focused quirks to name two) were not terribly impressive, but at least they gave you the option to build to those quirks (though few people did). Post skills tree, we are -I guess- supposed to look at armor vs structure and extra sensor range -on an energy boat- and think to ourselves "my isn't that unique, I shall build something oh so different with this variant than with the other three variants that I have who differ only by 1 hard point and an extra AMS mount". I mean really? Give us a reason to build them differently and at least some of us would, meta or not, hell, even good or not. As it is though? Why bother with more than just another laser vomit, and why bother with more than one?

[Trissila]

Quirk it all you like, PPCs in the arms of a WHM chassis will still be uber-low mounts and thus strictly inferior to some other mech loading PPCs in high mounts. That's just how the game is played.

Lore builds exist to support a fictional universe that doesn't play by the rules of real-time combat as we understand it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Scout Derek, on 12 September 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

And that PPC AC build is still a thing? I see more laser vomit than it these days.

You don't have enough energy hardpoints to run laser vomit.

Scout Derek, on 12 September 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

As far as the PPCs being alone? No, they don't work well.

That's a different story, that's because 2 PPCs by themselves will never be good enough for a heavy. The sooner you accept that bracket builds will never really be a main thing, the sooner you can begin quirking to a more realistic flavor.

[El Bandito]

LOCATION BASED QUIRKS. The PPC quirks should only be on the arms of the 6R. Otherwise, players will simply mount those PPCs on the nipples of the 6R, instead on the arms, per lore.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 12 September 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

LOCATION BASED QUIRKS. The PPC quirks should only be on the arms of the 6R. Otherwise, players will simply mount those PPCs on the nipples of the 6R, instead on the arms, per lore.

That's not quite how it will work out. They will just not use PPCs or the 6R.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2017 - 05:06 PM.

[Khobai]

tying quirks to hardpoints would be an improvement.

it would be similar to having sized hardpoints but not as abysmally restrictive

Quote

That's not quite how it will work out. They will just not use PPCs or the 6R.

not so sure about that. the quirks can be more powerful if theyre tied to specific hardpoints

Edited by Khobai, 12 September 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

That's not quite how it will work out. They will just not use PPCs or the 6R.

They will use the arms, as long as quirks are significant enough.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 September 2017 - 05:16 PM.

[Ruar]

I agree that a lot of the mechs feel the same. I know I build with similar tendencies because I want to be competitive while also having fun.

Putting PPCs in the Warhammer is fun, but it's not very competitive since you lose arms so easily and the low position means you have to take a lot of fire to get them into play.

I don't know if there is a solution though. Quirking out the PPC arms would make them somewhat competitive but would it be enough? Boost armor and internal on the arms and torsos only when PPCs are mounted? Can that even be done?

Maybe bonus EXP/C-bills when running a lore build to compensate for being less competitive. Would people play a lore build for a 15% boost? 10%?

I think the biggest problem is PGI has painted themselves into a corner by having all the variants be from lore. If they had made the primary variant a lore build and then gave us a few options that are better suited to the game it would add more diversity. I like Enforcers but there is really only a couple of ways you can setup that mech because there just isn't enough diversity in the variants. I'd love to see an Enforcer with some missile hardpoints paired with lasers, or an all ballistic build.

The only way to make mechs feel more unique is to offer unique variants instead of the minimal variation we see now.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

That's a different story, that's because 2 PPCs by themselves will never be good enough for a heavy...

Weeeellllllllllllllllllllll...

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 September 2017 - 05:16 PM.