77 replies to this topic

[SlyJJ]

Yes, I brought this up before and I apologize for bring it up again...

But I'd really like to see the LBX20 dropped in crits so it could be included in more builds. As it stands it can only be mounted in side torsos and even then only when you've got a standard engine. There is no incentive to run this and I don't think I've actually seen it on any mech.

I mean, I don't think anyone will complain about this- its hardly considered to be a powerful weapon. At the moment I don't think anyone uses it at all and nor should they.

Don't care about anything else, but this is merely a place holder ATM.

[Verilligo]

The IS LBX20 isn't in as bad a spot as you might think. Being 11 crits DOES make it much, much harder to take in builds because you are limited to that standard engine. It does hold a few advantages, though, in that it has a MUCH higher velocity than the AC20, produces a little less heat, and most importantly doesn't have ghost heat if you fire two at once. A Warhammer boating twin LBX20 is a really mean customer in a brawl, especially to any lights looking to duck through the melee because even people with crap aim like me can get the cluster fire to spray over them more often than not. If you reduce the crits to 10, it could potentially impact the balance of boats like that.

I'm not personally opposed to dropping the number of crits, but it isn't as worthless as you make it out to be. IS LBX5s and 2s, however...

[Bud Crue]

I agree with the premise, but I have seen folks running them. 2 on a Warhammer has been fairly...well not common...but I've seen it more than a couple of times.

I too have put 1 on a Phract 0xp, and on my BH2 I am running an LBX20 with 6ERML, because the effective ranges match (though I admit a UAC10 would probably be better or my previous regular AC20. But the ranges! They match!! OCD at its finest.). That's about it though. So yeah, if they took less crits they would be so much better. Even better than being able to run them with an LFE would be to fit them in arms. I'd love it if I could mount a pair on a Jagger. Or have one on a Centurion, or Enforcer. Hell I might even buy the Mauler and Black Knight heroes if I could make em fit there. Oh well.

[Bombast]

Well, crit splitting would be preferable. But since that isn't happening, yes, reducing crits would be nice. It still wont make some of the lore builds possible (Mechs with LB-X arms and more than two actuators), but at least you could mount it in some arms, and with LFE.

I do have one fear, though - Such a change would almost certainly come with ghost heat. And that would probably kill the LB-20X completely, since it's only real advantage over the AC/20 is the heat (Ok, there's some range and velocity stuff too, but it's the dual fire thing that REALLY pushes it up).

No one would run BoomHammer-X's anymore, and thats a shame because I love them.

Edited by Bombast, 14 September 2017 - 07:39 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

LBX are OP!

[Brain Cancer]

The answer is as it's always been: Fix things so you can properly split-crit large weapons.

It's a roadblock for the IS LB-20X, HGauss, and introducing any kind of artillery/arty cannon.

[Metus regem]

Brain Cancer, on 14 September 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

The answer is as it's always been: Fix things so you can properly split-crit large weapons.

It's a roadblock for the IS LB-20X, HGauss, and introducing any kind of artillery/arty cannon.

The lack of mech mounted artillery doesn't bother me actually, as the maps are too small to justify it really.

The lack of Crit splitting does how ever, but I do understand that for what ever limitations PGI has (code, skill, want of learning), we've got to deal with the fact that those limits are here and we should find a work around. I'm all for crit reductions on things like the isLB-20X should be knocked down to 8-9 crits, so that we could get away from some PGI variants or add variants into the game. There is no reason to keep punishing the LB family in MWO for abilities that they do not have.

TT rules do not and should not equil the rules for MWO. I have yet to find one piece of lore / fluff that mention the critical space requirements of weapons... there are some that mention weight. So we can leave the "But it's Lore!" as to crit requirements by the wayside.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

The lack of mech mounted artillery doesn't bother me actually, as the maps are too small to justify it really.

The only "true" arty-range weapon is the Arrow IV (which has an engagement range within mapsize), but arty CANNONS are actually much shorter range like conventional ballistics.

They hit for AoE damage and fire in arcs that would allow dropping shells behind hills, though. Which other than redsmoke, we lack.

Quote

TT rules do not and should not equil the rules for MWO.

Great! Toss all the critspace requirements out whenever PGI can't actually figure out the coding. I expect Arrow IVs immediately, and we should get everything else that was otherwise too huge slimmed down to fit.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brain Cancer, on 14 September 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Great! Toss all the critspace requirements out whenever PGI can't actually figure out the coding. I expect Arrow IVs immediately, and we should get everything else that was otherwise too huge slimmed down to fit.

To be fair, most of those cannons and AIV are overly large anyway.

[El Bandito]

Bombast, on 14 September 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Well, crit splitting would be preferable. But since that isn't happening, yes, reducing crits would be nice. It still wont make some of the lore builds possible (Mechs with LB-X arms and more than two actuators), but at least you could mount it in some arms, and with LFE.

I do have one fear, though - Such a change would almost certainly come with ghost heat. And that would probably kill the LB-20X completely, since it's only real advantage over the AC/20 is the heat (Ok, there's some range and velocity stuff too, but it's the dual fire thing that REALLY pushes it up).

Why? Clan LB20X can be equipped with XL engine. XL! And no GH there.

[The6thMessenger]

Even at -1 crit slot, i don't think many people would use the LB20X at all. Fast as the projectile speed may be, the crit damage only works when the armor is stripped, and chances are the guy already did his damage.

An AC20 on the other hand focuses 20 damage on one spot. Still i don't see any good reason that an LB20X would be used over AC20 despite being the same size. If it were -1 slot and -1 ton from the AC20 instead like the trend with LB10x from the AC10, I see people considering this.

At 13 tonnes it completes with the UAC-10 instead and would give a choice between mid range DPS or close-range splat for simple 13 tons.

[Nightbird]

Reduce crit until crit splitting is implemented, same for heavy gauss.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 16 September 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Even at -1 crit slot, i don't think many people would use the LB20X at all. Fast as the projectile speed may be, the crit damage only works when the armor is stripped, and chances are the guy already did his damage.

An AC20 on the other hand focuses 20 damage on one spot. Still i don't see any good reason that an LB20X would be used over AC20 despite being the same size. If it were -1 slot and -1 ton from the AC20 instead like the trend with LB10x from the AC10, I see people considering this.

At 13 tonnes it completes with the UAC-10 instead and would give a choice between mid range DPS or close-range splat for simple 13 tons.

The IS LB-20X, specifically, has one thing going for it that no other 20-class in the game does: it is still dealing 10 damage at 720 meters. That means it can still do some nasty crit work at a distance. While I would definitely prefer -1 ton in addition to -1 slot, I can justify the LB-20X at just -1 slot for that reason.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 16 September 2017 - 08:19 PM.

[Alkabides]

Would someone mind explaining velocity to me how how that makes a difference in damage. I'm a new play and this one I'm unsure of. The impact generates damage in addition to the regular damage of the weapon? I'm confused on this and have just started exploring AC's. Right now I've got a timberwolf with 1 lbx-20, 2 HLrgL and 2 HMedL. It's fun, I love nailing people with the lbx. It also has me wondering when it comes to lbx's, AC's and UAC's what is better and why? On paper they all seems fairly similar sans a ton or some heat here or there. Thanks.

[Bombast]

Alkabides, on 16 September 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Would someone mind explaining velocity to me how how that makes a difference in damage. I'm a new play and this one I'm unsure of. The impact generates damage in addition to the regular damage of the weapon? I'm confused on this and have just started exploring AC's. Right now I've got a timberwolf with 1 lbx-20, 2 HLrgL and 2 HMedL. It's fun, I love nailing people with the lbx. It also has me wondering when it comes to lbx's, AC's and UAC's what is better and why? On paper they all seems fairly similar sans a ton or some heat here or there. Thanks.

Generally, higher velocity means better accuracy (it gets to the target faster, so there less chance of missing due to the target moving, you moving, etc). Better accuracy means more hits, more hits means more damage.

It does not directly influence damage.

EDIT: As for whats better, it depends on the mech, the type of fighting you're doing, and who you ask.

C-ACs are dumpster fires from what I'm told though.

Edited by Bombast, 16 September 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Alkabides]

Thanks for taking the time to explain

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 September 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

The IS LB-20X, specifically, gas one thing going for it that no other 20-class in the game does: it is still dealing 10 damage at 720 meters. That means it can still do some nasty crit work at a distance. While I would definitely prefer -1 ton in addition to -1 slot, I can justify the LB-20X at just -1 slot for that reason.

http://static.mwomer.../list/full.json - Accessed September 17, 2017

That's poor use of 14 tons. LBXs spread by a lot, the LB10X alone has 0.9 spread, the LB20x has 1.0 spread, and the LB10X already spread by a lot by it's effective range alone, to use it to crit from 720m is just a joke. It's no question that you'll crit, but at that distance the pellet pattern is far too spread out that you're more likely to do glancing blows -- poor efficiency, poor use of what is 1/7th of a ton of ammo . If i wanted to crit at a range, i'd use 2x AC2 instead.



Take a look at the tunnel fight, that's 0.9 spread working on 270 - 350m. Based on that, i'm pretty sure that the 1.0 spread at 720m would be WAAAAAY worse.

Well, maybe raining on multiple enemies is attractive to you, and it could possibly work. But still not worth the 14 tons.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 September 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[SFC174]

I use the IS LBX20 over the AC20 solely for velocity reasons. Unless a mech is heavily quirked for ballistic velocity, the AC20 feels about like firing a single SRM at someone. Its great in a face to face brawl, but beyond that I find aiming it to be a chore (a chore with a payoff if you hit mind you). I would love it if I could put the LBX20 into an arm mount.

On the clan side, I do enjoy my double LBX20 builds because they don't ghost heat like the UAC20s, and I don't care for the multi-shell pattern of the UACs. In the case of the C-UAC20, that's 4 shells in succession (over about 0.4 sec I believe), which requires tracking a moving target and, with the slow velocity, makes it much harder to put them on the same component. It's not the spread you'd get with an LBX, and skill can mitigate the spread unlike the LBX, but the LBX definitely has some good reasons to choose it.

[Bombast]

The6thMessenger, on 16 September 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

SNIP

It's not that mid-range firing an LB-20X is a good strategy, it's just that you can do it. An AC/20 is pretty much stuck as a brawling weapon, and if you can't close the distance, either due to speed disparity, or a team that wont push, or a bad map, you're boned. The LB-20X isn't, and you can actually do something with it when you're not in the brawling zone. It's an extra option that helps make up for it's deficiencies.

And it's hilarious when it's late in the game and you can blow someones remaining torso out from 700 meters with a brawling weapon snap shot.

[BrunoSSace]

If LBX 20 got a crit slot reduced it be great, light fusion engines in all my dual lbx brawling assults. I might even use them instead of the old ac20 in a few of my brawlers.