325 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

@Karl Streiger

I guessed that this was your point, cause the medium laser still does the same damage no matter the range until it reaches its max range WHEN its hitting.
Sure if you take into account the possibility to hit and how damage is spread you get different average numbers.

[Karl Streiger]

Nesutizale, on 15 August 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

@Karl Streiger

I guessed that this was your point, cause the medium laser still does the same damage no matter the range until it reaches its max range WHEN its hitting.
Sure if you take into account the possibility to hit and how damage is spread you get different average numbers.

But you need to take into account how your lasers hit the target. Because in no MWO was a inherited accuracy or spread that could have been based on the range brackets you only have the damage and the max range.

And with piss poor tabletop ranges even the difference in max range isn't worth much.
Without limited hardpoint numbers you would be stupid to mount large lasers instead of mediums with exception of very slow units. For example the Highlander HeavyMetal (usually had 3 Large Lasers in the arms) but only because i had only three energy hardpoints and not enough missiles slots and a lower arm activator so a brawling highlander didn't made sense.

A MW4 MechLab would have allowed me to mount 6 Medium Lasers instead of 3 Large Lasers - and given how the stats of those weapons are in MWO - I would choosen the 6 Medium Lasers all the time in MWO. Where as with its stats the 3 Large Laser build would be the better in MW4 (of course)

[Nesutizale]

Translating a TT to a realtime game is problematic to begin with. Battletech makes it even harder with its weird spread system of rolling hit locations that hardly makes any sense.

Going the other way around of how MWO could be translated back to the board would be that you have one hitroll for all weapons of the same type you fire. You call out a target zone that is visible to you and roll your dice. When you roll right you hit that location. You role above or below that number your targetzone wanders off
For example you have 3ML and the target shows its left side. You call out the left torso with a hitnumber of, lets say, 7.
If you roll 1-3 left arm, 4-6 left leg, 7 left torso, 8-12 center torso. You rolled a 3, all your ML would go to the left arm.
Enemy can now do a "spread" roll to see if he can spread some of the damage in time. He roles and succeds. Half of your damage is spread to the left torso, cause its the next zone from the arm.

This isn't the most accurate, just what I came up with while typeing. Still I think it show nicely where the biggest problem lies.
Spreading of damage is very different in realtime games compared ot the more abstract turnbased game.

I think one shouldn't try to copy Battletechs system or number but create its own balance for a realtime game. I think MWO stuck to close with some of the values. They later softend it up but I think not enough to compensate for how the weapons should feel.
Like in your example that a large laser should hurt much more on light targets because they do the entire damage into one zonen instead of it beeing spread.
Problem with that is a laser would have to do damage like a bold/shell but its character is a beam and that takes time to do damage.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 12 August 2019 - 08:11 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity. What parts of MW3 made it more 'simulation' than newer MW games?

Quite a few things. For one, it had the most unforgiving heat system of Every Mechwarrior Game in existence.
A cold, hardlocked 30 threshold just like tabletop...but able to fire much more frequently. (Do not install Pirate's Moon expansion, or it'll increase to a more forgiving 40 threshold.)
For two, the controls were absolutely abysmal but immensely specific. To have complete control over the mech you had approximately 50 different keys.
Setting up weapon groups was a slow and painful process in the field so you were basically locked with the groups you had set up before entering combat and you only had 3 groups. Editing your mech was quite a process too and the diverse targets required a mixed setup (so boating was pretty much impractical; also the heat would murder you).
There was some environmental destruction and enemies had pretty good combat range. They also liked to hide from sensors.
Speaking of, sensors had multiple modes that reacted with the enemy's multiple modes differently.
You could crouch...and it was useful.
The game immediately introduces you to the concept of "you run cooler in the water...you also move slow as hell and you're a sitting duck if you don't get out." (None of MWO's "look at me I can be 15 meters deep in water and move like I'm floating in air!")
You didn't die if you lost a leg. And limping means something...something bad.
The overall setup is a highly organized, reasonably realistic campaign gone wrong from the get-go and throughout it you're trying to regroup with other survivors of the initial deployment, whom can cooperate or disobey you depending on what's going on and their personalities (which can be frustrating; there's a stupid character that is stupid and will do stupid things because that's what he thinks is the best thing to do, which is decent for that part of the story; but he has this personality for the entire game and it frequently causes problems; let the guy collect his darwin award at the first opportunity. Do. Not. Save. Him.).

There's plenty more but I think people get the jist.

I know a good bit of them are also in MW4, but its 60 threshold allowed for a lot of ******** to happen, and machines die much quicker because of it leaving it with an arcadey feel. Mechs also have simpler controls, though not nearly as simplified as MWO.

Edit: (The quicker deaths I'm referring to are not from normal combat but from cheese building in a heat system that enables massive alpha strikes).

Edited by Koniving, 15 August 2019 - 11:49 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

TTK in MW3 was the shortest followed by MW2. Then its MWO then MW4.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 15 August 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:

TTK in MW3 was the shortest followed by MW2. Then its MWO then MW4.

Are you talking MW3 with Pirate's Moon or without?
If with, then uninstall Pirate's Moon. (The 30 threshold instead of 40 threshold makes a bit of difference).But agreed, you had 1x health, all weapons were hitscan[except missiles and ppc...I think], and all weapons had instant durations (except pulse lasers which had the longest duration of any weapon).

Karl Streiger, on 13 August 2019 - 10:05 PM, said:

MW3 not seen through rose tinted glasses was one of the worst translations of TT into FPS.
In no other MechGame the TTK was that short- use some pulse lasers and snap of the leg of the enemy mech.

That time to kill.
Naturally that's an exaggeration given the weapons and lack of heat. That problem is in every Mechwarrior game.

But MW3's pulse lasers? Firing a full pulse laser cycle was almost 1.5 seconds long compared to the 0.2 second beam time of MW3 lasers.
Are you sure you're thinking of the right quick-kill? I know pulse lasers did immense damage over time, but from the side they appear to be laser bullets, and from the firing perspective they were a continuous beam that seriously ran up your heat in exchange for nearly 1 or was it 1.5 seconds of non-stop fire (I'm speaking of a single large pulse laser; for large volumes of pulse lasers one could never get them to fire for the full duration).
Course... boating them...
Its worth noting that since they don't even get to run their full duration, we're only seeing a fraction of the firepower from that many pulse lasers, where in the MW4 video 100% of the damage is done in what looks like 0.1 to 0.2 seconds from the large pulse lasers.

Again bulk weapon spamming is in every mechwarrior game as an issue.
Even with that many pulse lasers and 1x armor.. in MW3 the mech survives and has a pretty health ST, despite having 100% damage transfer without reduction. Can't say that for the MW4 victims, in a system that reduces damage upon damage transfer (though some did survive more than one shot, the crippling damage usually throws them through the air and knocks them down).

MW3's issue was standard health with weapons delivered 1 rating per shot.
Much like MWO at the start. Except in MWO laser beam times were longer (and minor issues of enemy not being where you see him) when MWO first started, and as such they felt like tanks battering on each other despite the 1x armor and structure. (But MWO ACs were insanely overpowered, so much that you could hit the ground with an AC/20... and damage someone near it. ...This was a completely unrelated separate issue but I'm including it because that was a thing in closed beta it left an impression of immense raw firepower in an AC/20 when you could destroy a Jenner's leg by hitting the ground 3 to 4 leg-widths away from their feet.)

My personal biggest issue with MW3 was the controls.

Quote

The problem is if your game is close to TT its obvious that it will suck as FPS. Something the MW4 devs realized. TTK was imho quite long and similar to MWO.

I choose to selectively word this as
"What causes an MW FPS or sim to suck is to take TT literally as it is and not what TT is intended to represent."
1 to 1 armor per hit, 1 to 1 weapon damage per shot, and shooting fast enough to seem practical (which is typically 3 to 1 firing rate)...definitely makes for a bad shooter with horribly short time to kill. And doing straight 1 to 1 for firing rate..makes a boring shooter.

Tabletop is a summary, that paraphrased from TRO 2750's Crab page: "is a battle recorder's simulation playing out 'What if' scenarios."
Battletech's tabletop is inside Battletech's lore as a computer simulation played by Crab pilots when they're bored.
(I'm serious, read the Crab's page. "Tabletop" is played in universe as a simulation in the sensor suite's battle computer of a Crab.)

A simplified summary... is not meant to be the law of how it works.
"1 in 10 people may be hit by a car in the next minute" doesn't mean that if you pick any 10 people, one of them will be hit by a car in one minute. That's a summary of a statistic. How you interpret that statistic is more important.
As such tabletop's summary is just what the results could be within a specific amount of time, assuming a lot of generalizing about everything from damage placement to movement and pilot skill. Battletech tabletop is a highly interpretive landscape; just look at how I described a melee fight. Snippet in spoiler for convenience, link to see the full thing.
The literal summary of maybe 10 seconds or less of melee combat.

Spoiler

Griffin and Wolverine slug it out.
Since both didn't move or shoot, Griffin is able to throw in two punches.
The Melee Master in the Wolverine throws in four.


Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Punch (Left Arm) at Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 5 : Roll #534 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Punch table) CT
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 3 damage to CT.
17 Armor remaining.

Punch (Right Arm) at Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 10 : - Direct Blow - Roll #535 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Punch table) CT
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 5 damage to CT.
12 Armor remaining.

Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Punch (Left Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 10 : - Direct Blow - Roll #536 - range: [1,6], result: 6
hits (using Punch table) HD
Roll #537 - range: [1,6], result: 8, rolls: 4, 4
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 9 damage to HD.
0 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" takes 1 damage (1 total hits).
Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 8 : successful!

Punch (Right Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - Roll #538 - range: [1,6], result: 4
hits (using Punch table) RT
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to RT.
12 Armor remaining.

Punch (Left Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - Roll #539 - range: [1,6], result: 2
hits (using Punch table) LT
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to LT.
0 Armor remaining.

Punch (Right Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 5 : - Direct Blow - Roll #540 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Punch table) CT
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to CT.
12 Armor remaining.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (20+ damage).
The base target is 6 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (fatigue)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (fatigue) + 1 (20+ damage) + 0 (weight class modifier)); needs 7, rolls 5 : falls.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) falls on its right side, suffering 6 damage.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to CTR.
2 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 1 damage to RT.
11 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" must roll 7 to avoid damage; rolls 10 : succeeds.

The Interpretation of that data, delivered into specifics and arranged into an order that makes sense.

Spoiler

While the Griffin is pointing and clicking those melee strikes, Izumi inside her Wolverine has the gloves on.
Wolverine allows the Griffin to throw the first move; a left jab to the CT. 3 damage dealt with the ever impressive battlefist, but something went wrong.
That's right when the Griffin threw that jab the Wolverine countered with a left hook straight to that round-face cockpit!!! The strike obliterates the protection for 9 damage! Transparent armor crinkles and shreds away and what was left is rendered useless! Only the frame of around the Griffin's pilot is keeping Alessia alive!
Griffin pilot manages to stay conscious by some miracle but the Griffin is staggering.
Wolverine dives in with a right upper cut into the the staggering opponent's right torso. Another 8 damage.
Griffin is now rotating to its right as the right leg plants to keep it from falling over exposing the left side.
Izumi in the follows up by throwing a left hook in her cockpit. The Wolverine in turn executes the left hook, crippling the armor of the Griffin's left torso. Whoa, 8 more damage!
Alessia's fight-or-flight manages to get the Griffin's right punch in on the Wolverine, but only she would know if that's what she was realy going for or if she was really trying to stop the Wolverine's next attack. Alessia's lucky that the primary monitor still works or else she'd realy be fighting blind.
And the Wolverine goes in for a right-handed final strike to the center torso for 8 damage like Akira from Virtua Fighter, "Whachaaa!!"

Griffin is knocked over.
In total it takes 9+8+8+8+(fall 5+1) = 39 damage from that melee combo attack from the Wolverine.
Griffin dealt 3+5 = 8 damage.
The superiority is in the 'gloves'...

Now you can take that interpretation and compare it to the literal summary.. and it fits perfectly. But I could also reinterpret that about a dozen different ways, change how the punches are delivered or even the order for an additional 100+ different ways to interpret that same data. But the jist of it is we know 6 punches are thrown in total and where they hit. With weapons its different, because what if the weapon shoots 3 times to get that damage? What if it shoots 30 times? Then we get into thousands of ways to interpret the same data.

I think an ideal setup would play well in real time, but could translate back into tabletop without having to change much if anything at all. Afterall, a summary just summarizes the events in a simplified manner.

That is completely different from turning tabletop into real time (which is what most Mechwarrior games did with the weapons and why things die so fast particularly in the first three.) If you take tabletop literally there's only one interpretation, maybe a few depending on how many different ways you can assume the order of events went, but everything is exactly that damage and each is done in a single shot...despite how nonsensical it is for an autocannon to only shoot once or twice in 10 seconds. It just doesn't work if taken literally instead of as the summary it is intended to be.

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 August 2019 - 02:22 AM, said:

Also the Catapult looked ridiculously stupid

I think the reason for that is they cut off the back.
Also: From the size and shape of them; they also didn't realize the purpose of the "heels" sticking out below the knees.


To be fair, it's hard to say if these guys understood either. But at least they got the shape right. Where it connects mid-shin is supposed to be able to unlatch and it can swing out to form a heel, like a a high heel. This is to....catch it from falling, assist with standing up (PGI's version gave it the stub-nose for this), provide support when firing its salvos. The Stilt-leg version for mountainous terrain, however, seems to just have it as a reinforced knee rather than a functional semi-limb, but understandably so as its use literally only happened once in the literature, ever.

--------

In the laser damage/range topic...
Battletechnology is where I go for that.

Tabletop ML does 5 damage at 270 meters, LL does 8 damage to 450.
Off the top of my head I don't remember the exact "how it works" for extreme ranges, but just taking the long ranges and then adding the sharp shooter ability from maxtech, and it becomes 540 for ML and 900 for LL. The "average" person isn't gonna be very likely to hit that those ranges, but it is possible, and possible at full damage.

This is where BattleTechnology comes into play.
Laser range is technically "infinite" but...it really isn't. Lots of things affect laser range. Dust/smoke particles, anti-laser aerosols (a mech consumable that isn't in tabletop but is littered around the 1980s novels as an anti-laser counter measure to reduce incoming damage), even explosions from laser-melted targets can reduce the laser's effectiveness.

So, in my head, all weapons get much better range in vacuum environments especially lasers.
Within atmosphere and at the double end of extreme range, lasers pretty much completely lose their effectiveness against BAR 10 armor. Passing through things like smoke, dust, etc.would degrade the output of lasers and the farther out they go, the more it is lost. High intensity lasers lose their output faster than low intensity lasers as their lower frequencies help them to carry farther. Generally large lasers are lower intensity, longer duration lasers and are much less affected by range and atmospheric obstacles. Longer duration also make them easier to "adjust" aim at long range, while short "0.1" second beams leave no chance for correction at range where being off by a couple of pixels on the screen means the difference between hitting and completely missing.

Now, unlike MWO where the large laser is worse because of a longer duration.. in my mod the typical medium laser is doing less 2 damage per shot, and needing several shots with 1 or more seconds between shots and a pre-firing delay to "excite" the lasing medium. In the case of the Martell Model 5 Medium Laser, it takes 6 shots. Large lasers might generally have a longer duration (not always but in general), they will have less of a pre-fire time and fewer shots (rarely more than 2) and as such each individual shot will hit much harder than what most lasers can hope for.

Typical middle-ground medium laser shot: 1.25 to 1.67 damage, 0.1 to 0.3 second duration (typical, not universal).
Typical middle-ground large laser shot: 4 damage, 0.5 second duration (again typical, not universal)
(Delay to fire, time between shots not accounted for here.)

[That means per 0.1 seconds the large laser here is doing 0.8 damage as a low intensity weapon versus the ML's high intensity, but while the ML is done the LL keeps kicking]

Spoiler

ML (Example 1)
(pre-fire delay)
0.1 second, 1.25 damage
(Laser cooldown phase)
4 shots to net 5 damage.

ML (example 2)
(Prefire delay)
0.1 second, 0.557
0.2 second, 0.557 (1.111)
0.3 second, 0.557 (1.667)
(Laser cooldown phase).
3 shots to net 5 damage.

LL
(Shorter prefire delay)
0.1 second 0.8
0.2 seconds 0.8 (1.6)
0.3 seconds 0.8 (2.4)
0.4 seconds 0.8 (3.2)
0.5 seconds 0.8 (4)
(Laser cooldown phase)
2 shots to net 5 damage.

Universally, they'll still come out to approximately 5 damage and 8 damage (with variations) respectively, within an at maximum 5-second firing window (so far the longest time taken by a weapon to reach its rating is still less than 4.5 seconds) and ready to restart the process within 10 seconds from the first trigger pull. (Large lasers will typically reach their max damage output sooner than medium lasers, but will spend all that left over time cooling off)..

Can't say its a perfect solution, but it gives considerable nuance to both in a real time FPS and allows for many variations while still maintaining a governing 'standard' of expectancy. Also, whileit's not a "take tabletop literally," you could breakdown tabletop into real time with that damage model and real time into tabletop and get approximately the same thing.

One can make the lore and real time first person shooters work in tabletop very easily.
One cannot make the tabletop work into lore or a first person shooter...without realizing tabletop is a generic summary open to vivid interpretations in which to create specifics.

Edited by Koniving, 16 August 2019 - 12:17 AM.