7 replies to this topic

[Kuaron]

This is the discussion topic.
The poll is over there.

Kuaron, on 17 September 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Way back the omnipod quirks just amplified what suggested by the hard points of the same component.
This didn't work balance-wise because it encouraged collecting the maximum number of omnipods for what you wanted to boat, buy hardpoints AND quirks samewise. Fluffy mixed stock builds got not even the slightest benefit from this approach.
We still have some Mechs quirked this way in the game, namely some of the older and without heavy quirking underperfoming Omnimechs.

Currently there is a shift in favour of set-of-eight quirks, which is a step in the right direction.
The problems with it is being very stiff on the one side, and inappropriate for the mentioned mechs in need of heavy quirks, they still have to rely on both types of quirks, component-wise and 8/8.

What I'd like to suggest:

Component-wise quirks amplifying not what is mounted in this very component, but in adjacent ones. With one arm being regarded as "adjacent" to the other for this purpose and the CT to everything.
And components with less/worse hardpoints than alternative ones giving armour/structure, as we already are seeing currently.
This is meant to replace both types of quirks but with a full stock set of omnipods being quirk-wise in the sweet spot.

To make it less abstract, let's look at an example.
I'll use a simplified notation with "E+++" meaning big energy quirks and "S/A+" meaning small structure or armour quirks.

Mad Dog A has currently:

LA (1B): -
LT (3M): S/A+
CT: -
RT (3M): S/A+
RA (1E): -
8/8: B+++ E+

Mad Dog Prime, for comparison:

LA (2E): -
LT (1M): M++ S/A++
CT: -
RT (1M): M++ S/A++
RA (2E): -
8/8: M+ E+++
We see, that its arms have maximum/good hardpoints compared to other variants, but its STs are inferior.

In the suggested system, MDD-A:

LA (1B): M+ E+ S/A+ (since there are alternatives with more hardpoints)
LT (3M): B+
CT: M+ B+ E+
RT (3M): E+
RA (1E): M+ B+ S/A+

MDD-Prime:

LA (2E): M+ (no E+ b/c same weapon type and many hardpoints already with boating being beneficial)
LT (1M): E++ S/A++
CT: M+ E++
RT (1M): E++ S/A++
RA (2E): M+

Of course all the E++ could still be specific for e.g. pulse laser weapons on the MDD-Prime, I just tried to stay clear.

Do you think this approach could work, do you see problems or would suggest improvements?

[Rick T Dangerous]

In the poll you forgot the option "Leave it as it is".

[Y E O N N E]

FFS

There is nothing wrong with the Set concept. Everybody keeps whinging about "muh OmniMech status", but the reality is that you are not giving up jack diddly squat by swapping pods because the set bonuses are there precisely because the full set is usually inferior to mixed pods. Otherwise, the 'Mechs don't really need any quirks beyond some durability and the occasional heat generation...which are usually applied per-pod or per-CT where applicable.

This is the same complaint that people had about weapon-specific quirks on IS BattleMechs and how they had to "give up" something to use a different weapon, when in reality they were really trading the use of a crappy gun that got buffed up for the use of a not-crappy gun that didn't need the buffs.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 September 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

FFS

There is nothing wrong with the Set concept. Everybody keeps whinging about "muh OmniMech status", but the reality is that you are not giving up jack diddly squat by swapping pods because the set bonuses are there precisely because the full set is usually inferior to mixed pods. Otherwise, the 'Mechs don't really need any quirks beyond some durability and the occasional heat generation...which are usually applied per-pod or per-CT where applicable.

This is the same complaint that people had about weapon-specific quirks on IS BattleMechs and how they had to "give up" something to use a different weapon, when in reality they were really trading the use of a crappy gun that got buffed up for the use of a not-crappy gun that didn't need the buffs.

The issue with 8/8 quirks is that some mechs are so weak that even fully customized pod sets are crappy. For example, look at the Mist Lynx. Now imagine that mech if it every single pod quirk was moved to require the full set. Maybe the MLX-B and G might remain okay, but the rest basically require pod mixing to get a good fit. The Prime and C in particular...ew.

I think that an Omnimech should first be given enough pod-specific quirks to be "competitive," and then 8/8 set bonuses can be added to weak stock layouts for flavor.

[Kuaron]

I edited this part to make it more polite.

Anyway, if you think there is the status quo option missing in the poll:
Please be aware what the status quo is. The first two paragraphs of the post might help. It's all there.

@ Yeonne:
I assume you read the suggestion to the end. In this case please don't be driven away complaining about some whiners I don't even know of.
What I am suggesting is an approach to combine to benefits of 8/8 quirks with some flexibility.
What do you think about it?

About the 8/8 in particular, as FupDup pointed out, they only work on a rather narrow interval of a Mech's power level. If it's too weak, it needs component-specific quirks in addition, and if it's too strong, you won't strengthen it even more with quirks, see Stormcrow's 8/8.

Now, it could occur, that the suggested system still works better with what I am listing as CT quirks represented as 8/8 quirks, or a part of it. I hope it's not the case because the goal is to leave the system flexible with respect to 7/8 and 6/8 set variations. Or in other words, having a specific CT work best for omnipod combinations as or similar to the stock one. Which would not be the case with stiff 8/8 quirks.

Edited by Kuaron, 17 September 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Most clan mechs do not need quirks in any way shape or form, the ones that dont perform do, to bring them up to a usable level. I would even advocate single pod quirks for them just to encourage use.

But that would require some thinking which isnt exactly PGI's strong point.

[El Bandito]

Aside from set of 8, omnis need location/hardpoint based quirks.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I don't think it's a good idea.

On principal level it's better than current system, on some mechs in particular, but it's too complicated change to actually PGI to implement. Set of 8/8 should get overall buffs to weapons what people actually want to use.

Consider one of the latest 8/8 mechs, Shadow Cat H.

It has one energy hardpoint in hand and another missile hardpoint on the opposing side torso. If it keeps those two hardpoints it gets a whopping +15% cooldown to energy, +15% cooldown to missile, and -10% heavy laser heat. Then it has few other small stuff like +20 to arm armor on the hand that has no hardpoints, to keep safe those two useless heatsinks it can carry on it.

So there's no reason to keep those 8/8 quirks as that config simply has too few hardpoints to be useful.