2
This topic is locked
Spoiler
This was posted back in May in the big skill tree Q&A post:
There has been some good progress towards better overall balance since that post was made, sure, but quirks are still an absolute mess and show no signs of being actually addressed as promised. All we're getting instead is more quirk shuffling and largely terrible, uninspired, uninformed balance changes that for the most part don't even fix any problems, and the fact that it's still bad even after various improvements speaks volumes to how sloppy, lazily, and piss poorly it's been handled before such (long overdue) improvements were made.
If the lead designer isn't following through with the mandate that's been given, of which there's no sign of it happening in a timeframe that's even worth considering, then the obvious solution would be to fire them and get somebody else who will actually bother doing their job, but of course that won't happen in this case for unspoken reasons that are obvious when looking at PGI's track record.
I've largely lost interest in the game again as a result of PGI lying through their *** again about actually fixing things for the several dozenth time now, and if all we can look forward to for "big balance patches" is the kind of crap in the September patch then there's no point in keeping track of development of the game to see when I want to bother playing again, which I actually was doing for a little while there but then quickly stopped caring when it was evident that PGI doesn't care either about fulfilling their promises before the next ice age.
P.S here's a bonus post from 2 years ago of PGI saying basically the same thing about quirks being bad, and of course they didn't do **** about it back then either:
This was posted back in May in the big skill tree Q&A post:
Quote
Chris: The current Quirk system is not producing the intended results for the experience we are attempting to provide with MWO. While Quirks have served us well up until this point as a system which assisted toward balance - fairly well in some cases - the results ultimately ran contrary to ‘Mech customization; one of the key features of MWO.
Overall, current Quirks have introduced a level of power creep that we feel is the wrong direction for MWO, with heavily Quirked ‘Mechs acting more as puzzles then avenues of personal customization. With often only loadouts that fully optimize around a ‘Mechs given quirks able to be considered in a “balanced” state, while loadouts which ignore, or do not care to customize into the very ridged quirks often massively underperforming loadouts that play exclusively to pre-canned quirks.
Loadouts often needed to be fully optimized around the ‘Mechs inherent Quirks in order for the ‘Mech to be considered in a “balanced”, optimal state. Loadouts which didn’t lean into the inherent Quirks would be taken with the knowledge that they’re sub-optimal. This was a restrictive system that needlessly caused entire Loadouts to underperform.
When one of the core pillars of the MWO experience is the ability to customize and personalize your ‘Mech through the MechLab, this is something we cannot ignore any longer. We intend to break this blind adherence to narrow offensive quirks as being what dictates an entire Chassis’ performance and balance.
This is not a decision taken lightly, and we are fully aware of the concerns raised about these changes. With the Skill Tree being released, we felt strongly that now was the time to address this long standing concern for the following reasons.
First and foremost, we do not want the quirks to be one of the primary factors for considering ‘Mech viability on the IS side.
We further do not want said Quirks to add to the massive performance gulf between ‘Mech Loadouts optimized entirely around the Quirks, and those that are not.
With new tech coming, and a heavy focus on balancing the tech levels through the baseline equipment, we knew that we would have had to reduce the Quirks in this way regardless of the Skill Tree. We decided to do it now to ensure that players go into their Skill Tree in the context of this Quirk reduction now, rather than later. While many of our top veteran players would have been able to adapt from a change such as that if they had a large amount of HSP should we have kept the Quirks in, this is not something that most of our player base would have been able to do. And we did not wish to give them months of investing Skill Points into a Loadout optimized around the inherent quirks only to have that Mech’s Quirks severely reduced shortly after.
Additionally, we feel players may be underestimating some of the boons that the Inner Sphere will receive through the Skill Tree system, the engine desync, and the way these interact with the current Quirks. Engine de-sync in particular is going to have a much bigger impact than many players may believe at a glance. With Inner Sphere ‘Mechs being the primary recipient of many baseline Mobility increases, and Clans being the recipients of many of the decreases, this will have an impact. While the Mobility chart offers more percentiles than the previous pilot lab system, in cases of Clan ‘Mechs such as the KDK-3 which saw a 25-30% reduction to its base values, even with the added Mobility from the tree you will not see higher performance than you have under the previous system. Alternatively, many IS mechs will see greater boons then they have had previously.
This does not mean that we feel that the net result of all this will solve all of the Clan and IS balance concerns that are present. For this we are still laser focused on further baseline changes to address ongoing concerns of balance between the IS and Clan factions.
Overall, current Quirks have introduced a level of power creep that we feel is the wrong direction for MWO, with heavily Quirked ‘Mechs acting more as puzzles then avenues of personal customization. With often only loadouts that fully optimize around a ‘Mechs given quirks able to be considered in a “balanced” state, while loadouts which ignore, or do not care to customize into the very ridged quirks often massively underperforming loadouts that play exclusively to pre-canned quirks.
Loadouts often needed to be fully optimized around the ‘Mechs inherent Quirks in order for the ‘Mech to be considered in a “balanced”, optimal state. Loadouts which didn’t lean into the inherent Quirks would be taken with the knowledge that they’re sub-optimal. This was a restrictive system that needlessly caused entire Loadouts to underperform.
When one of the core pillars of the MWO experience is the ability to customize and personalize your ‘Mech through the MechLab, this is something we cannot ignore any longer. We intend to break this blind adherence to narrow offensive quirks as being what dictates an entire Chassis’ performance and balance.
This is not a decision taken lightly, and we are fully aware of the concerns raised about these changes. With the Skill Tree being released, we felt strongly that now was the time to address this long standing concern for the following reasons.
First and foremost, we do not want the quirks to be one of the primary factors for considering ‘Mech viability on the IS side.
We further do not want said Quirks to add to the massive performance gulf between ‘Mech Loadouts optimized entirely around the Quirks, and those that are not.
With new tech coming, and a heavy focus on balancing the tech levels through the baseline equipment, we knew that we would have had to reduce the Quirks in this way regardless of the Skill Tree. We decided to do it now to ensure that players go into their Skill Tree in the context of this Quirk reduction now, rather than later. While many of our top veteran players would have been able to adapt from a change such as that if they had a large amount of HSP should we have kept the Quirks in, this is not something that most of our player base would have been able to do. And we did not wish to give them months of investing Skill Points into a Loadout optimized around the inherent quirks only to have that Mech’s Quirks severely reduced shortly after.
Additionally, we feel players may be underestimating some of the boons that the Inner Sphere will receive through the Skill Tree system, the engine desync, and the way these interact with the current Quirks. Engine de-sync in particular is going to have a much bigger impact than many players may believe at a glance. With Inner Sphere ‘Mechs being the primary recipient of many baseline Mobility increases, and Clans being the recipients of many of the decreases, this will have an impact. While the Mobility chart offers more percentiles than the previous pilot lab system, in cases of Clan ‘Mechs such as the KDK-3 which saw a 25-30% reduction to its base values, even with the added Mobility from the tree you will not see higher performance than you have under the previous system. Alternatively, many IS mechs will see greater boons then they have had previously.
This does not mean that we feel that the net result of all this will solve all of the Clan and IS balance concerns that are present. For this we are still laser focused on further baseline changes to address ongoing concerns of balance between the IS and Clan factions.
There has been some good progress towards better overall balance since that post was made, sure, but quirks are still an absolute mess and show no signs of being actually addressed as promised. All we're getting instead is more quirk shuffling and largely terrible, uninspired, uninformed balance changes that for the most part don't even fix any problems, and the fact that it's still bad even after various improvements speaks volumes to how sloppy, lazily, and piss poorly it's been handled before such (long overdue) improvements were made.
If the lead designer isn't following through with the mandate that's been given, of which there's no sign of it happening in a timeframe that's even worth considering, then the obvious solution would be to fire them and get somebody else who will actually bother doing their job, but of course that won't happen in this case for unspoken reasons that are obvious when looking at PGI's track record.
I've largely lost interest in the game again as a result of PGI lying through their *** again about actually fixing things for the several dozenth time now, and if all we can look forward to for "big balance patches" is the kind of crap in the September patch then there's no point in keeping track of development of the game to see when I want to bother playing again, which I actually was doing for a little while there but then quickly stopped caring when it was evident that PGI doesn't care either about fulfilling their promises before the next ice age.
P.S here's a bonus post from 2 years ago of PGI saying basically the same thing about quirks being bad, and of course they didn't do **** about it back then either:
Spoiler
Paul Inouye, on 11 September 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:
Hello MechWarriors,
So here's the big scoop about the new 'Mech Rebalance.
First off, let me explain the reason why this rebalance is happening. When we first started balancing the Inner Sphere 'Mechs, it was completely about making sure that every chassis had a role and that loadouts were not abused. Over the course of a year, we essentially balanced IS vs IS 'Mech technology/loadouts. Then came the Clan Invasion, and with it the introduction of Clan technology to the game. Clan technology is and commonly known to be over-powered using BattleTech rules. This is not what we wanted in MechWarrior Online.
Many of the past MechWarrior games resulted in an arms race trying to get to a few Clan 'Mechs, and everything from that point on was rendered pointless/obsolete. What we did for MWO was trying to keep as much flavor of Clan technology as we could without allowing it to be outright over-powered. We did this via distributed damage by the weapons, meaning Clan Autocannons would spread damage by firing multiple shots per volley, Clan lasers would burn for longer durations, Clan missiles would fire in streamed clusters. If the Clans were 100% over-powered, this change brought them down to about 70% over-powered. Slight changes were being introduced at this point to try to bring that down even further. It was also at this time that I was heavily invested in both time and attention into getting Community Warfare ready for the holiday season.
A set of fixes for overall 'Mech rebalances were suggested from certain parties, which made efforts to address the concerns of certain play styles and the competitive-based tiering of 'Mech capabilities. This eventually spawned into the Quirk system that is currently in the game. I will not try to pass the buck off on this, as it was my responsibility to monitor what was happening outside of Community Warfare. What I saw was an ever-growing disparity between a standard 'Mech chassis and the min/max end result of quirked 'Mechs. The level of power creep was growing with every pass of the quirk system, and certain 'Mechs started to perform far above their intended loadout capabilities. Community Warfare was finally wrapping up its intensive and time-pressured core development, and more of my time could now be spent on other parts of the game. This started a long series of discussions revolving around the current 'Mech balance and the direction that Quirks were taking the game.
After these long talks, it became very apparent that the new Quirk system was taking balancing in a direction we did not want to go in the first place. While the overall structure of the Quirk system had the right frame of mind, the implementation and values were straying too far from a properly balanced playing field.
This brings us to where we are today. Before bringing another large influx of players into the game through Steam, we need to take the opportunity now to reset and balance the 'Mechs in a manner that is best for the game in the long run.
I have to be honest with you; some of you will love this new system, others will hate it (especially those who might rely on 'meta' builds that push the limits of the current Quirk system). That being said, here is what the new balance system brings to MWO that the current system does not. Information Warfare/InfoTech is being brought to the forefront of 'Mech capabilities. This is something we had left untouched for far too long, but now is our chance to get it up to date. The time it takes for receiving target information, the distances over which you can share information and how long you can keep said information are all being implemented on a per-chassis basis. Another aspect that the new system brings into play is balancing ‘Mechs against each other at the variant level, prior to balancing them against each other at the chassis level. Once the variants have been balanced and made unique, each chassis within the same weight class is then investigated and rebalanced. It is only after all of this happens that we look at the final balance gap between IS and Clan technology.
The Process:
Each variant for a given chassis is examined based on its loadout, agility, and geometric layout (such as where the hardpoints are located). Each 'Mech is then given a score based on those factors. The scores fall into 4 categories: Protection (armor/structure), Firepower (loadout/hardpoint location/cooling efficiency), Mobility (speed/torso twist/torso pitch/etc) and InfoTech (this is new, but incorporates information gathering time, target retention time, and information sharing ranges/sensor ranges). These scores are then combined to give a base number which is used to compare variants within the chassis, and the first pass of balancing is then performed. No 'Mech within a chassis will be highly efficient in all 4 categories. This is where the first layer of 'Mech balance and Role Warfare makes each variant unique within its chassis. Here is an example using the Jenner JR7-D:
In the image above you will see that the Jenner D was more about movement and mid-range firepower. Its InfoTech score was set to the middle of the road as it shares InfoTech common to all 'Mechs at this current moment. To differentiate the Jenner D from its counterparts we buffed its ability to be more heat efficient and gave it the ability to gather information very quickly at longer ranges. Its overall protection doesn't change, as it is a Light 'Mech geared toward a more scouting-oriented role. The delta can be seen in the image below:
If you are the type of player who wants to play the Jenner in more of a striker role, you would probably go for the Jenner F at this point. To accommodate its specific role compared to the JR7-D, we would buff the JR7-F to have higher inner structure and higher firepower capabilities at the cost of reduced sensor range/sensor speed.
This is essentially the drive for the inter-chassis differentiation of variants. Next, we look at the global scoring of all 'Mechs of the same weight. 35-ton 'Mechs will now target an average 4-score system that will have them all performing around the same level. The above is repeated for each 'Mech variant in each 'Mech weight class. So yes, a 40-ton 'Mech has a different score to adhere to than a 45-ton 'Mech. The score will not vary widely, but it's enough to give it a slight edge over its counterpart.
This system is then run across every 'Mech in the game. All Inner Sphere 'Mechs are now in a relatively decent area for balance. Further tuning is needed, and there may be some data entry errors in the current PTS build, but it's important that we get what amounts to a massive change in the balancing system for MWO in front of you all as soon as possible. Much the same approach as above was taken for the Clans, but Omni-Pods of course had to be accounted for in the variant specific scores.
This brings us to today and the Public Test we are going to be running. The current PTS build comprises the first set of numbers in the database, and all of them are still open for tuning (drastically or only slightly, depending on metrics and your feedback).
There are aspects covered in this write-up, such as the above diamond graphs, that we will add to the 'Mech Stats screens when this feature goes live on to the production servers. We hope you can find some time to try out the new system and provide constructive feedback on what these changes have done to your style of gameplay.
Thank you for participating in the ‘Mech Rebalance PTS, and thank you for playing.
TL;DR:
* You should read the above.
* The current quirk system is not working as intended.
* The new system brings 'Mechs much more closely in line with each other while adding role and information warfare in a much deeper meaning to each 'Mech.
* This is the first pass at numbers and your feedback is requested.
* There are bugs and missing information elements but they will be addressed in a later build.
So here's the big scoop about the new 'Mech Rebalance.
First off, let me explain the reason why this rebalance is happening. When we first started balancing the Inner Sphere 'Mechs, it was completely about making sure that every chassis had a role and that loadouts were not abused. Over the course of a year, we essentially balanced IS vs IS 'Mech technology/loadouts. Then came the Clan Invasion, and with it the introduction of Clan technology to the game. Clan technology is and commonly known to be over-powered using BattleTech rules. This is not what we wanted in MechWarrior Online.
Many of the past MechWarrior games resulted in an arms race trying to get to a few Clan 'Mechs, and everything from that point on was rendered pointless/obsolete. What we did for MWO was trying to keep as much flavor of Clan technology as we could without allowing it to be outright over-powered. We did this via distributed damage by the weapons, meaning Clan Autocannons would spread damage by firing multiple shots per volley, Clan lasers would burn for longer durations, Clan missiles would fire in streamed clusters. If the Clans were 100% over-powered, this change brought them down to about 70% over-powered. Slight changes were being introduced at this point to try to bring that down even further. It was also at this time that I was heavily invested in both time and attention into getting Community Warfare ready for the holiday season.
A set of fixes for overall 'Mech rebalances were suggested from certain parties, which made efforts to address the concerns of certain play styles and the competitive-based tiering of 'Mech capabilities. This eventually spawned into the Quirk system that is currently in the game. I will not try to pass the buck off on this, as it was my responsibility to monitor what was happening outside of Community Warfare. What I saw was an ever-growing disparity between a standard 'Mech chassis and the min/max end result of quirked 'Mechs. The level of power creep was growing with every pass of the quirk system, and certain 'Mechs started to perform far above their intended loadout capabilities. Community Warfare was finally wrapping up its intensive and time-pressured core development, and more of my time could now be spent on other parts of the game. This started a long series of discussions revolving around the current 'Mech balance and the direction that Quirks were taking the game.
After these long talks, it became very apparent that the new Quirk system was taking balancing in a direction we did not want to go in the first place. While the overall structure of the Quirk system had the right frame of mind, the implementation and values were straying too far from a properly balanced playing field.
This brings us to where we are today. Before bringing another large influx of players into the game through Steam, we need to take the opportunity now to reset and balance the 'Mechs in a manner that is best for the game in the long run.
I have to be honest with you; some of you will love this new system, others will hate it (especially those who might rely on 'meta' builds that push the limits of the current Quirk system). That being said, here is what the new balance system brings to MWO that the current system does not. Information Warfare/InfoTech is being brought to the forefront of 'Mech capabilities. This is something we had left untouched for far too long, but now is our chance to get it up to date. The time it takes for receiving target information, the distances over which you can share information and how long you can keep said information are all being implemented on a per-chassis basis. Another aspect that the new system brings into play is balancing ‘Mechs against each other at the variant level, prior to balancing them against each other at the chassis level. Once the variants have been balanced and made unique, each chassis within the same weight class is then investigated and rebalanced. It is only after all of this happens that we look at the final balance gap between IS and Clan technology.
The Process:
Each variant for a given chassis is examined based on its loadout, agility, and geometric layout (such as where the hardpoints are located). Each 'Mech is then given a score based on those factors. The scores fall into 4 categories: Protection (armor/structure), Firepower (loadout/hardpoint location/cooling efficiency), Mobility (speed/torso twist/torso pitch/etc) and InfoTech (this is new, but incorporates information gathering time, target retention time, and information sharing ranges/sensor ranges). These scores are then combined to give a base number which is used to compare variants within the chassis, and the first pass of balancing is then performed. No 'Mech within a chassis will be highly efficient in all 4 categories. This is where the first layer of 'Mech balance and Role Warfare makes each variant unique within its chassis. Here is an example using the Jenner JR7-D:
In the image above you will see that the Jenner D was more about movement and mid-range firepower. Its InfoTech score was set to the middle of the road as it shares InfoTech common to all 'Mechs at this current moment. To differentiate the Jenner D from its counterparts we buffed its ability to be more heat efficient and gave it the ability to gather information very quickly at longer ranges. Its overall protection doesn't change, as it is a Light 'Mech geared toward a more scouting-oriented role. The delta can be seen in the image below:
If you are the type of player who wants to play the Jenner in more of a striker role, you would probably go for the Jenner F at this point. To accommodate its specific role compared to the JR7-D, we would buff the JR7-F to have higher inner structure and higher firepower capabilities at the cost of reduced sensor range/sensor speed.
This is essentially the drive for the inter-chassis differentiation of variants. Next, we look at the global scoring of all 'Mechs of the same weight. 35-ton 'Mechs will now target an average 4-score system that will have them all performing around the same level. The above is repeated for each 'Mech variant in each 'Mech weight class. So yes, a 40-ton 'Mech has a different score to adhere to than a 45-ton 'Mech. The score will not vary widely, but it's enough to give it a slight edge over its counterpart.
This system is then run across every 'Mech in the game. All Inner Sphere 'Mechs are now in a relatively decent area for balance. Further tuning is needed, and there may be some data entry errors in the current PTS build, but it's important that we get what amounts to a massive change in the balancing system for MWO in front of you all as soon as possible. Much the same approach as above was taken for the Clans, but Omni-Pods of course had to be accounted for in the variant specific scores.
This brings us to today and the Public Test we are going to be running. The current PTS build comprises the first set of numbers in the database, and all of them are still open for tuning (drastically or only slightly, depending on metrics and your feedback).
There are aspects covered in this write-up, such as the above diamond graphs, that we will add to the 'Mech Stats screens when this feature goes live on to the production servers. We hope you can find some time to try out the new system and provide constructive feedback on what these changes have done to your style of gameplay.
Thank you for participating in the ‘Mech Rebalance PTS, and thank you for playing.
TL;DR:
* You should read the above.
* The current quirk system is not working as intended.
* The new system brings 'Mechs much more closely in line with each other while adding role and information warfare in a much deeper meaning to each 'Mech.
* This is the first pass at numbers and your feedback is requested.
* There are bugs and missing information elements but they will be addressed in a later build.
Edited by Pjwned, 19 September 2017 - 02:12 PM.
