16 replies to this topic

[Uhtred the Pagan]

The regular Clan Active Probe's range for anti-ECM is supposed to be 360m, but what's the range for the Light Probe?
I've always found it silly that not only it doesn't mention on the item's description that it DOES counter ECM, but also no range is mentionned about that. Only the IS probe mentions that it counters ECM, and still no range mentionned in-game.

[Koniving]

Uhtred the Pagan, on 19 September 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

The regular Clan Active Probe's range for anti-ECM is supposed to be 360m, but what's the range for the Light Probe?
I've always found it silly that not only it doesn't mention on the item's description that it DOES counter ECM, but also no range is mentionned about that. Only the IS probe mentions that it counters ECM, and still no range mentionned in-game.

Uh... You're in the wrong place to ask this.
At first I was going to say "Probe doesn't counter ECM", and indeed it doesn't in Battletech.

....You're in the Battletech discussion thread. ECM countering by ANY probe is a made up tidbit of fictional ******** that PGI came up with to counter how overpowered ECM is in MWO versus how...practically useless ECM is in Battletech without playing into misinformation (by creating false radar blips of the user and others in places that have no mechs).

The range the IS counters at is 180 meters + sensor enhancements. (Usually around 220 meters with the typical scout setup, a little further for Cyclops with probe.) Detection of shutdown mechs is 120 meters.

Clan Probe has an identical range. Detection of shutdown mechs is 150 meters.

Both of those increase sensor range by 25%, and target information gathering speed by 25%.

Clan Light Probe counters at 120 meters (so literally got to be inside the ECM bubble), though sensor enhancements aside from the probe itself will increase this range.
Clan Light Probe increases sensor range by 15%, and target info gathering at 15%. The range for detection of shutdown mechs is 90 meters.

Those are MWO stats.

And this is a Battletech (boardgame, universe) thread. Please don't bring MWO discussions here.

Edit:
Of interesting note, ECM got a hell of a power boost to make up for its range being cut in half.
Used to reduce target locks by 25% and target info gathering against it or any in its cloak by 25%.
Now it reduces locks by 50% (double) and target info gathering against it by 70%.

Edited by Koniving, 20 September 2017 - 07:35 AM.

[Dungeon 206]

Koniving, on 20 September 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

Clan Light Probe counters at 120 meters (so literally got to be inside the ECM bubble), though sensor enhancements aside from the probe itself will increase this range.

Hey mate where did you get this statistic from?

Edited by Dungeon 206, 17 December 2017 - 09:12 PM.

[Koniving]

Dungeon 206, on 17 December 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

Hey mate where did you get this statistic from?

Honestly I don't remember but lemme check Smurfy.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment
Beagle and Light probes.
The counter range is 30 meters above the "detect mechs at shutdown range."
So Beagle is 120 meters so it's 150 meters.
Light probe is 90 meters and so it's 120 meters.

[Khobai]

^ thats wrong


BAP/CAP/LAP all counter ecm at 240m

yes it has a higher counter range than ECM in counter mode (only 180m)

and yes it makes no sense

PGI...


And if you have both a BAP and an ECM, your ECM will prevent the the BAP counter mode from working. So you will only counter at 180m instead of 240m. Again it makes no sense.

Edited by Khobai, 14 January 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[CloaknDagger]

Koniving, on 20 September 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

At first I was going to say "Probe doesn't counter ECM", and indeed it doesn't in Battletech.

....You're in the Battletech discussion thread. ECM countering by ANY probe is a made up tidbit of fictional ******** that PGI came up with to counter how overpowered ECM is in MWO versus how...practically useless ECM is in Battletech without playing into misinformation (by creating false radar blips of the user and others in places that have no mechs).

Uh, no, Active Probes do counter ECM in Battletech, that's part of the ECM rules, where Active Probes and ECM have -1/+1 to ECM in their range respectively.

So if you have 5 Active Probes in an area, and 3 ECMs, there's no ECM in the area.

There's also the Angel ECM and Bloodhound Probe, which are both twice as powerful.

If you have 5 Actives Probes in an area, and 3 Angel ECMs, there's still ECM because 5 is less than 6.

Switch the Active Probes to Bloodhounds, and the Angels are mitigated.

This is more important with C3, since it doesn't work if ECM blocks it's LOS to another C3 mech.

There's also Nova CEWS, which is a 90 meter, 1.5 ton, 1 crit, 2 heat version, which is an Angel ECM, Active Probe, and 3 unit C3 all rolled into one. Thank the Society for that one.

[Koniving]

CloaknDagger, on 24 January 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

Uh, no, Active Probes do counter ECM in Battletech, that's part of the ECM rules, where Active Probes and ECM have -1/+1 to ECM in their range respectively.

Uh, what Rule book have you read?

Because in practice, with computer governed rules in Megamek from TacOps double blind, Battletech Master Rules, TechManual, etc. (this is NOT counting Alpha Strike mind you as it was before then)..

When Probe actually worked, as each turn it had a roll and if it succeeded it showed everyone in a 1800 meter radius EXCEPT the two mechs using Clan ECM. That was the only mech that was not revealed using Beagle Active Probe.

TacOps gives a detection index.
Beagle Active Probe does not give enough counter index to counter ECM.

BLOODHOUND ACTIVE PROBE, does. And Battletech does not work on a "1 to 1 scale."
At all.
....ever...

There is no "one this counters one that."

It's proximity range versus index count.
I'm this close.
My index count to your counter index count is X. Your number higher than mine.
And with camo I beat your sensors to X range.
With camo + ECM, I'm basically undetectable unless you're staring at me, even with probe.
Then it goes into thermal, IFR which is not the same as thermal, seismic, MAG, etc...
Leave a quote back so that tomorrow after work I can just screenshot four or five entries about ECM and Probe so that you can read for yourself from the actual rulebooks, from the first time they're introduced (since I have those) to 2007, they've expanded but the core rules have NEVER changed.

(In fact, originally they had NO interaction with each other at all. One just let you see powered off [Hidden] mechs and the other just removed the "enhanced accuracy" of Artemis enhancements. They didn't even begin to interact with each other until TacOps, Strat Ops, AToW and MaxTech.)

[Koniving]

But for a quick thing, TechManual page 213:

"The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe,
Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV—all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear."

In other words:
Guardian BEATS Beagle Active Probe.

However in the basic rules, this applies simply to sensor information, detection (while powered), targeting acquisition (in other words Active Probe cannot override Guardian's counter to Artemis, NARC, etc.)

Active probe in the basic rules can only detect mechs in 4 hexes, IF STARING AT IT.
Which Guardian does not obscure "visual" detection, which is probably where you are confused. In which case, yes, at 120 meters you can "detect" a Guardian ECM mech. I mean it is STANDING IN FRONT OF YOU at 120 meters... I would hope you could see it then. (It still does not override anything that Guardian does against any sensor or target system; Artemis still loses Artemis, NARC still doesn't NARC).

[Koniving]

This may give the illusion that Guardian is overpowered, but the fact is Guardian does NOTHING against LRMs.. SRMs... or Streak Missiles.

It does nothing against target locks.

It can:
Deny target Information (i.e. unit identity [including whether or not it is even a mech], mounted weapons and equipment), produce Ghost Targets (false sensor blips for non-visual sensors), disrupt Thermal sensors (this is dubious as there are few references to this), and disrupt advanced target systems of any specified systems that pass through the 180m bubble. That is to say if your Artemis LRMs pass through my bubble, even if targeted at someone behind me, they lose Artemis. But few people track the course of missiles in basic BT.

The target info, etc. and ghost targets only work outside of 180m, as per the first ECM entry in TRO 2750 when the tech is first introduced alongside Beagle Active Probe. The two have no references to one another despite being side by side. Beagle works 120 meters and requires target to be visual. It overrides "hidden" units of all non-infantry types. ECM specifically states that its users can only hide from sensors outside of 180 meters, and beyond that are usually "seen" visually..

So you can override and see an ECM's sensor lockout at 180 meters.
Beagle only detects hidden mechs in basic rules to 120 meters.

Tac Ops gives Beagle and other active probes to detect out to an outstanding distance... with one rule: you must surpass the index of each unit detected. Except beagle cannot surpass the index of Guardian ECM for detection, unless the target is also right in front of the Beagle user, at a range so close that the Beagle wouldn't be necessary.

(On the doing nothing against target locks; you can lock any sensor blip...including ghost targets. You don't need to know "What" it is.)

[Koniving]

Artemis broadcasts to the missiles. Which is why ECM works against it.
NARC broadcasts to NARC enabled missiles, which is why ECM works against it.
ECM versus TAG is dubious; there's references saying yes and saying no. But logically it would be no, TAG doesn't broadcast, TAG enabled missiles "Look" for indicator and identifying characteristics picked up by TAG, fed prior to launch.

Unlike MWO, BT missiles not using Artemis do not communicate with launcher post launch.
Non-NARC enabled missiles do not communicate with NARC beacons, but NARC enabled ones do. Which is why they are susceptible.

[Metus regem]

-sigh-

All of what Koniving just said makes me think about how much of a missed opportunity PGI had with ECM in this game... can you imagine how much more useful (and better) ECM mechs could be, if they could make false sensor ghosts for the Red team?

[Khobai]

missiles would be slightly more useful too if ECM actually did the things it was supposed to do.

[Koniving]

Metus, this entire game is a "missed" opportunity. Did you know PGI talks about information warfare to amazing detail before the game hit alpha, and guess what? It sounds awesome. And most of the **** STILL isn't in the game as described. For example it goes on about dropping sensor nodes and jammers.

Recon Sensor Dispensers, they exist and they are pretty neat. Comms equipment, first 'ton' is free for mechs, a second ton allows them to use the dispensed sensors, a third allows them to hack and use enemy satellites. Though extinct, the Tactictron 2000 counted as 3 tons of comms equipment. Just imagine the possibilities. Also the Tactictron had a holographic display.

CloaknDagger, on 24 January 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

Uh, no, Active Probes do counter ECM in Battletech, that's part of the ECM rules, where Active Probes and ECM have -1/+1 to ECM in their range respectively.

So if you have 5 Active Probes in an area, and 3 ECMs, there's no ECM in the area.

There's also the Angel ECM and Bloodhound Probe, which are both twice as powerful.

If you have 5 Actives Probes in an area, and 3 Angel ECMs, there's still ECM because 5 is less than 6.

Switch the Active Probes to Bloodhounds, and the Angels are mitigated.

This is more important with C3, since it doesn't work if ECM blocks it's LOS to another C3 mech.

There's also Nova CEWS, which is a 90 meter, 1.5 ton, 1 crit, 2 heat version, which is an Angel ECM, Active Probe, and 3 unit C3 all rolled into one. Thank the Society for that one.

Anyway guys I didn't get a reminder! I mean c'mon, but last night I reminded myself and even found some new **** out.
For example, while Guardian beats basic CAP and BAP,
Bloodhound beats Guardian ECM.
Angel ECM beats Bloodhound.

BUT... Bloodhound's detection range is 150 meters while Guardian deflects sensors outside of 180 meters. So either the target has to be DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF YOU at 180 meters or less, OR 5 hexes (150 meters) to your side or behind you to detect a Guardian ECM user that is hidden. And Angel can be dancing behind you and you'd never know he was there.

You can visually detect any ECM user at any given range (just like you can 'see' out to 60 hexes which is 1800 meters, provided a clear line of sight. Gotta be fairly close to get actual identity (the closer you are the better the results). So to use those probes to counter ECM is pretty pointless, unless they are hiding inside a building, tunnel, or other obstruction, or buried under foliage or a ghillie suit. Even then, without ECM you'd be able to detect many of those provided the sensors are set to the right range.

I promised at least five references, though since some of these are new to me even, I could easily do more. In summary though its pretty clear: ECM beats Beagle and Clan Active and Light Active probes. For the Clans only Watchdog beats Guardian.

To be fair, though, unless Liao went to fight the Clans, you'd almost never see Guardian ECM facing off against Clan Active Probes. Liao isn't keen on sharing their ****.

So, lets do some educatin'!
ECM and Active Probe's first entry in the history of Battletech.

Side by side, but no direct relation. Note: Guardian ECM information denial works beyond 180 meters (and its jamming of advanced missile guidance is within 180 meters, affecting missiles that pass through its range at any given point). (Screwing around in Megamek, you gotta fire from a height of 180 meters above the ECM user to not be affected, so that's vertical too. Kinda neat that megamek tracks missile paths, even if it doesn't log them. Wish they logged them too.)

Beagle's range is 4 hexes, 120 meters. But within 180 meters of ECM, a visual detection is possible to get information on ECM users. When the two meet isn't explained here, but...


Gives that Guardian beats Beagle. Beagle's page mentions absolutely nothing about ECM what-so-ever. The above supercedes TRO 3050, TRO 2750, and Battletech Compendium by serving as its replacement (see stuff below; note the info is still identical though).

But from the 1994 Tactical Handbook, on which Tactical Operations is based... (and funny enough, Tactical Handbook most of its information on custom rules taken directly from BattleTechnology; some of them word for word [typos included!] we have the following:


The Bloodhound can detect infantry, as well as vehicles, has 150 meters for hidden units, and under double blind is pretty damn overpowered. It can detect Guardian ECM users though again with no hindrance within its range. I'll have to look at its relation on the Blind Rules...

Okay so Beagle does god mode detection to a maximum of 36 hexes or 1080 meters (that's a low chance, as you gotta roll a 1-4 on a 2d6, with 9-12 meaning it fails to detect anything, 5-6 gets medium range [24 hexes] and 7-8 gets short range only [12 hexes or 360 meters].

Bloodhound god modes out to 48 hexes. Clan god modes out to 45. Times any of these by 30 to get the range in meters.
Mech standard sensors go out to 720 meters in ANY direction. Visual sensors go out to 60 hexes or 1800 meters in daytime (but only 5 hexes or 150 meters at night with headlights on; see Battletech PC).

Vehicle sensors go out to 18 hexes. Watchdog as a sensor suite goes out to 60 hexes in ALL directions (Clan OP!)

And here's the sensor table.
Notice aint' poop here that is one to one. NOTHING is one to one. Its index factors.


So you COULD detect an ECM user with Beagle, but the range would be incredibly short (360 meters) and only if you succeed. You can also be within 180 meters and only know there's one around because you'd be informed that you are being jammed. That's pretty much it, clearly meaning it doesn't automatically trump Guardian "1 to 1". (Those without Beagle wouldn't even know they are being jammed.)

This... kinda negates the need for more, but...

Angel ECM


Sensors


So that's all kinda interesting.

Wife is glaring at me now to get off the computer and stop being a geek for five minutes, so uh... Gotta go.
(But yeah, ain't no "1 to 1" crap anywhere, and in basic rules, Guardian wins over Beagle and CAP. In advanced rules its detection indexes.)

[Metus regem]

Kon, I was reading my copy of Mech Manual (the new tech book) and there was a pretty major change in Angel ECM, SSRM's still work... on a hit, you then roll on the SRM tables... this reads to me that it turns SSRM's into SSRM's with an ammo conservation aspect.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 27 January 2018 - 06:31 AM, said:

Kon, I was reading my copy of Mech Manual (the new tech book) and there was a pretty major change in Angel ECM, SSRM's still work... on a hit, you then roll on the SRM tables... this reads to me that it turns SSRM's into SSRM's with an ammo conservation aspect.

If you mean turns Streaks into "SRMs", then yes.

That's not a major change. It's barely even mentioned in the Tactical Handbook there, but it's covered under Angel ECM that it counters streaks.

If I recall correct, streaks will be allowed to fire regardless of whether you actually get a successful to hit, where if you fired on a normal non-Angel ECM target, if you did not get the successful to hit roll, you'd just not actually fire.

(Streaks don't work like MWO; they're simply SRMs with a fancy launcher that has an onboard computer that takes the circumstances, comes up with a fire solution, feeds them wirelessly into the missiles and fires. Where Angel ECM takes place is kinda screwy as in theory it'd have to be in proximity when the missiles are launched. However the rules fail to encompass this fact as Angel ECM can jam them anywhere along the path. As you notice, it interrupts them if their line of sight passes within 6 hexes (180 meters) of the ECM user (which is how they interfere with missiles regardless of range if they pass within the bubble).

As such, one must assume that Streak launchers can also wirelessly provide corrections, or that the streak lore needed a change to encompass it. Whatever the case, like Artemis, Streaks are affected and turned into "basic SRMs" when passing through Angel ECM, just like Artemis, NARC, etc. missiles are turned to regular LRMs and SRMs when they pass by Guardian.

Far as I can tell, nothing really changed there.

It's been like that since 1994, if not earlier.

[Koniving]

Since most of the Tactical Handbook traces back to BattleTechnology, I could probably find it under there. Except I don't think "Angel ECM" existed until after 1989, the old magazines did not continue into the 90s apparently they did, til 1995.

I do not have all the issues, however. But I have little doubt that even the old magazines have that included, since most of the Tactical Handbook is comprised of magazine-invented custom rules and BattleTech Compendium came out of a compilation of the magazines and various tidbits from the TROs, other sourcebooks, etc., which the TacBook was then used to make TacOps, Compendium used to make Tech Manual... etc.

[Koniving]

Even the Battle Value system was invented in BattleTechnology. Originally titled Combat Efficiency Factor.

So like... almost all the fluff detailing how things work owe it all to BattleTechnology... Kinda makes me sad that Catalyst changed it to non-canon after Beas got into the role. It was canon for over 25 years, even if amended and improved upon... and most of the information is still regurgitated even today!