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The Lmg Nerf


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#1 SOL Ranger

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 09:11 PM

MWOMERCS.COM said:

Light Machine Gun Design Notes: We are currently observing the state of Machine Guns as a whole, but at this time we only see a need for bringing the LMG into better alignment with its standard counterpart. In its previous state the LMG was outclassing the Standard variant even at ranges where we wished for the standard MG to outperform against the LMG. With the weapons being identical in tonnage and critical, we could not have one weapon outperforming the other to such a significant degree. The changes to spread are tuned to where the LMG will still focus their damage on singular locations while within Optimal Range, but will begin to spread to multiple locations when outside their Optimal Range.

In addition to this, their bonus Critical Chances have been redued to ensure that they will not blow out components as easily from outside the Optimal Range of the weapon. We still want the Range of LMG to be its primary feature, but we want their optimal usage to be brought a bit closer to where the Standard and Heavy MGs can better compete, and potentially overcome LMGs dependent on the engagement range.

https://mwomercs.com...14131-19sep2017

That is a statement claiming that, as I interpret it, LMG's outperformed MG's within the optimal range of MG's.

Secondly, we can observe in this statement that the changes were made simply because of this internal discrepancy between LMG and MG, notably seemingly not looking at the overall power of the weapon compared to other weapons nor the power of MG's compared to other weapons.

Now, assuming the spread has something to do with LMG's being superior then the issue is immediately solved with the increased spread to 0.5 in terms of the discrepancy, yet PGI opts to also bake in a damage reduction and double dip the nerf for some reason destroying the weapon.

Do we have any thoughts on this, because I simply cannot see the justification for this heavy handed approach, both spread and damage nerf is cumulatively devastating the weapon especially for mechs that cannot boat many of them, the ones that were never a problem to begin with sending the weapon into a niche boating only role.

To me it seems mostly like a hollow excuse taking the easy way out nerfing LMG's without addressing the polarised issues that actually exist and manifest especially when boating, while then leaving the weapon ever closer to being worthless.

Do note I do not disagree with the spread increase as a property for LMG's as such personally, however I disagree with the following:
  • I disagree with the outright nerf of the weapon where it in no way receives any compensating properties for the massive loss of power, its power level was never too high just its specialised application when amassed.
  • I disagree with the heavy handed approach of double dipping nerfs, PGI being fully aware that it is an excessive approach I have no doubt.
  • I disagree with the damage reduction that I consider completely unwarranted, the raw damage it did was not a problem.
  • I disagree with comparing weapons in a vacuum like MG vs. LMG without taking into consideration their current power levels compared to other weapons and gameplay overall.
  • I disagree with directly ignoring the core issues of the crit system and properties of machine guns that cause the issues in the first place, and only indirectly trying to adjust said properties by overall nerfs rather than adjusting focus. It was simply a weapon that was specialised by PGI design and that specialisation becomes extreme when boated.
  • I disagree with ignoring other types of adjustments that can make the weapon heavier but still remain applicable on heavier chassis, like adjusting ammo tonnage capacity
  • I disagree with simply one dimensionally looking at weapons for nerfs when there are massive flaws in the armour system that disallows people to utilise back armour with reasonable compromise of weight only
  • Most of all I disagree with making the only machine gun applicable on heavier chassis as a supplementary weapon ever closer to a boating only niche and otherwise uselessness, when the development direction should be the other way around making weapons powerful in singular/few/mixed use.
The solution to these polarised weapons is to make them more general purpose and less specialised where desirable and applicable, to move them from being so polarised and specialised that they do not cumulatively become an extreme issue, but still offer the individual level of power that allows their use in configurations of few, and also notably in heavier chassis.




Now LMG's are largely only useful on the 8x MLX, ACH and possibly SHC-P that can still boat extremes of them for desired effect, they are even more niche than MG's and HMG's as it happens because at least MG and HMG are individually functional as weapons within range for anything fast.

The irony of this nerf for me is that it has not much harmed my MLX which works perfectly fine with MG's and I even prefer it that way for fun times. Instead this¨nerf harmed my JM6-DD, Arrow, Bushwacker, Roughneck, Urbanmech and every other mech that used LMG's as supplementary weapons with 5 or less.

Progress is impossible in this game with these kinds of simplistic unimaginative non-solutions and development oriented on taking giant leaps backward in terms of fun elements, a lack of vision plagues this game more than anything.

Edited by SOL Ranger, 19 September 2017 - 09:23 PM.


#2 El Bandito

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 09:53 PM

View PostSOL Ranger, on 19 September 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

Progress is impossible in this game with these kinds of simplistic unimaginative non-solutions and development oriented on taking giant leaps backward in terms of fun elements, a lack of vision plagues this game more than anything.


Some players find it un-fun to have their weapons stripped near instantly--heck there is even a thread about it in front page. Hence I believe the LMG nerf did not move overall fun factor among players toward negative side.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 September 2017 - 09:54 PM.


#3 MechaBattler

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:08 PM

I think the nerf hasn't harmed that much in general. But rather than continue hammering them into uselessness. Perhaps a different approach? Perhaps increase weapon and component health. It would technically be a nerf to crit seeking weapons. But given how rapidly they evaporate as it is.

#4 SOL Ranger

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:17 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 19 September 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:


Some players find it un-fun to have their weapons stripped near instantly--heck there is even a thread about it in front page. Hence I believe the LMG nerf did not move overall fun factor among players toward negative side.


Focusing on the actual issue with machine guns, the crit seeking property that escalates when boated, has been my main criticism in every post I make about the subject, so I don't know why you are arguing about that as you've several times replied to my posts about these things and you should be aware. It is clearly defined on point 5 in the list.

The fact that some players got their wish that LMG's got completely brute force neutered is not a net positive for the game overall just like them nerfing other weapons regardless of consequences is without taking into consideration important aspects of their use. There are plenty of people who liked LMG's who feel the changes were over the top and harmed mechs other than MLX/ACH needlessly and that does not equal a positive change.

It's a lazy change and doesn't solve the problem where boating still does the same thing more or less when boating extremes while now reducing the effectiveness of builds with only few LMG's significantly, it's just a bad failed change not taking into consideration the whole picture and positive elements that existed.

Edited by SOL Ranger, 19 September 2017 - 10:21 PM.


#5 Zergling

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:22 PM

Honestly, LMGs were only really good against bad players, so really didn't need a nerf. But I had doubts PGI would be able to realise that, so I fully expected a nerf in this patch.

Like, one of the times I took my Mist Lynx out early this month, I went and scored 6 solo kills. One of them as an AFK/DCed player, but the rest were live and active, and it was just an absurd score.
But when I looked through my video recording, I could see that the players I killed were all playing badly; they just weren't treating my Mist Lynx as a threat and allowed me to get easy sustained shots at their backsides.

Edited by Zergling, 19 September 2017 - 10:23 PM.


#6 Curccu

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:44 PM

View PostSOL Ranger, on 19 September 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

I do not disagree with the spread increase

Spread is stupid, they should remove it from all MGs.

#7 MrMadguy

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:47 PM

I don't know. LMGs are intended to be used on longer range. Right? Then why do PGI nerf spread, that nerfs them specifically as long range weapon? This is wrong. DPS nerf would be even better. LMG weights 1/2 of MG? Then it's DPS should be 1/2 of MG's. Right?

Edited by MrMadguy, 19 September 2017 - 10:48 PM.


#8 Thorqemada

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:01 AM

MGs are no accurate weapon - they have a spread, some have a wider spread than others, some a smaller spread but they are no sniper rifles, heck they are not even rilfes.
They trade accuracy for fire frequency and beat the enemy with sheer numbers of shots in a given area in a given time and it is more or less random where and whom you hit in this area - the more bullets you spray the bigger the chance to hit anything.
So the logical balance for MG Boating is incresing spread per weapon (or per 2 weapons as these are single MGs and not arrays).

#9 qS Sachiel

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:05 AM

Is this nerf in place yet?

I expected them to at least give the JennerIIC hero the same window of opportunity that they afforded the MLX, ARCH...

oh well, jenIIC loses again, always the bridesmaid never the bride.

#10 El Bandito

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 03:29 AM

View PostCurccu, on 19 September 2017 - 10:44 PM, said:

Spread is stupid, they should remove it from all MGs.


Yep, remove both spread and crit. Increase the base damage if they must. RNG is inherently bad.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 September 2017 - 03:29 AM.


#11 Curccu

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 03:54 AM

View PostMrMadguy, on 19 September 2017 - 10:47 PM, said:

I don't know. LMGs are intended to be used on longer range. Right? Then why do PGI nerf spread, that nerfs them specifically as long range weapon? This is wrong. DPS nerf would be even better. LMG weights 1/2 of MG? Then it's DPS should be 1/2 of MG's. Right?

1st sentence was correct, you don't know ;)
LMG weights same as MG just more range with less damage, HMG weights twice as much but gets only additional 40% dps, almost obselete range, with extra spread and almost unusable ammo/ton (specially for (IS) light mechs).
LMG damage for a ton(2500) of ammo = 175
MG damage for a ton(2000) of ammo = 200
HMG damage for a ton(1000 wtf?) of ammo 140, with 1500 ammo it would get 210 damage per ton which would make sense to me at least.

#12 Athom83

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 04:08 AM

View PostCurccu, on 19 September 2017 - 10:44 PM, said:

Spread is stupid, they should remove it from all MGs.

Or, for consistency, give it to all weapons.

#13 Ghogiel

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 05:44 AM

After abusing LMGs, they were obviously a bit borked and needed Asap attention. The only way to address the broken properties is to reduce the critting dmg somehow. The spread nerf is meh, but the crit factor was overwhelmingly the main issue, so there won't be any non potato arguement against nerfing that aspect of them (let's face it they weren't going to redesign how crits worked just to bring MGs in so they werent totally lol.)

Edited by Ghogiel, 20 September 2017 - 05:49 AM.


#14 Asym

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM

View PostZergling, on 19 September 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

Honestly, LMGs were only really good against bad players, so really didn't need a nerf. But I had doubts PGI would be able to realise that, so I fully expected a nerf in this patch.

Like, one of the times I took my Mist Lynx out early this month, I went and scored 6 solo kills. One of them as an AFK/DCed player, but the rest were live and active, and it was just an absurd score.
But when I looked through my video recording, I could see that the players I killed were all playing badly; they just weren't treating my Mist Lynx as a threat and allowed me to get easy sustained shots at their backsides.

With repect, you've missed an important fact: we, many of us, have given up trying to stop lights....

Yep, a large number of average players "just ignore" lights. Why? Because we can't kill them anyway.

Just yesterday in a match, this exact scenario played out. An Urban mech simply destroyed 5 hvy an assault mechs, one after the other and the better players were screaming at the top of their lungs "kill it"..... Not 3 minutes later, the three Tier 2 players had their opportunity, in open water of River City and the 1 assualt, 1 medium and a light COULD NOT KILL THE URBAN....

They had enough skill and firepower to destroy all of the remaining OPFOR and only the Urban was left. For several minutes those three very good players simply, could not kill 1 light mech.... An annomoly? Not even close; and, "gittin GuD" isn't valid nor has it been valid for a long time...... I think I'm going to start recording light fights like this and post them..... There have been several epic 1 versus 3,4,5 mechs that defy logic and reply..... One a few days ago with 2 lights chasing another Urban. I've never seen so many Streak missles fired and the Urban simply danced away and survived the game......????? How was that possible? You should have heard the VOIP on that one.......

Why are players so bad? Because there is nothing we can do to efficiently kill: Skill Tree optimized, Up-Quirked, over compensated mechs that are OP because of the un-balanced conditions PGI has created. So, why even try !?!?!

It drives the upper tier players crazy when we "just ignore them and die" but, we have little or no option other than to "do what we can for the team before we're destroyed."

There's the reality; grok that and let that sink in...........

Edited by Asym, 20 September 2017 - 06:46 AM.


#15 Verilligo

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 06:55 AM

View PostAthom83, on 20 September 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

Or, for consistency, give it to all weapons.

You want a Gauss Rifle to spread?

Edited by Verilligo, 20 September 2017 - 06:56 AM.


#16 Admiral-Dan

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:24 AM

View PostAsym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

I think I'm going to start recording light fights like this and post them.....

Yes, please!!!

I get some popcorn and enjoy this epic show. Posted Image

#17 Bombast

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:32 AM

View PostAsym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

One a few days ago with 2 lights chasing another Urban. I've never seen so many Streak missles fired and the Urban simply danced away and survived the game......????? How was that possible? You should have heard the VOIP on that one.......


I doubt two lights carry enough Streaks to make meaningful use of them and actually kill most lights, let alone a Pocket Medium like the Urbanmech.

Combine that with the Urbanmech itself, with is actually a pretty fine light fighter (Being able to run 100kph while 180 degree torso twisting is amazing) and I can easily see an Urbanmech surviving such a circumstance.

#18 Zergling

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 08:13 AM

View PostAsym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

With repect, you've missed an important fact: we, many of us, have given up trying to stop lights....

Yep, a large number of average players "just ignore" lights. Why? Because we can't kill them anyway.


If a player cannot kill a light, then I must question if they are even 'average'. No offence intended.



View PostAsym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

They had enough skill and firepower to destroy allof the remaining OPFOR and only the Urban was left. For several minutes those three very good players simply, could not kill 1 light mech....


Then they did not have sufficient skill and/or firepower.



View PostAsym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

"gittin GuD" isn't valid nor has it been valid for a long time......


I disagree.



View PostAsym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

Why are players so bad? Because there is nothing we can do to efficiently kill: Skill Tree optimized, Up-Quirked, over compensated mechs that are OP because of the un-balanced conditions PGI has created. So, why even try !?!?!


The Urbanmech is not, and never has been, 'OP'.



View PostAsym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

It drives the upper tier players crazy when we "just ignore them and die" but, we have little or no option other than to "do what we can for the team before we're destroyed."


I am not seeing players intentionally ignoring lights; I'm seeing players that simply don't know basic tactics, like 'don't expose your rear to MGs'.

The moment the going gets tough for them, they turn around and run away, dying incredibly fast as a result, where if they had stood their ground and kept their tough frontal armor facing the MGs, they would have lasted considerably longer, maybe even survived.

Edited by Zergling, 20 September 2017 - 09:05 AM.


#19 Athom83

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:10 AM

View PostVerilligo, on 20 September 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

You want a Gauss Rifle to spread?

Tiny bit. Not very much, but a little yah.

#20 Cementi

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:15 AM

They are still silly as F***.

I have no sympathy for anyone complaining about the LMG nerf. Don't worry in a couple months they will dial it back even more to where it should be.





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