34 replies to this topic

[JadePanther]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

Some players find it un-fun to have their weapons stripped near instantly--heck there is even a thread about it in front page. Hence I believe the LMG nerf did not move overall fun factor among players toward negative side.

Must agree.. I think this was forseen.. for some time I have said MG's need nerfs.. Cause losing entire sections of weapons the instant you last sliver of armor disappeared was just ridiculous.. Heck the only thing missing from a mech shooting MG's at you was a 3-2-1 countdown timer to total loss of weapons followed by a trollface replacing your targetting reticle while your mech shutsdown and crys..

[Prototelis]

Taking advantage of unaware players is the only way to effectively use a light and generate a decent match score/rewards.

Urbie spreads damage phenomenally (360 spin baby). Aim for the parts that aren't twisting or moving a lot (hips). Same could be said for just about every light. A lot of the time I get away with doing cheeky pirates bane stuff because y'all hitting those little flaps it calls arms, or you're raking your lasers across all three of my torso sections. Or sometimes I just circle people to be max annoying and call my buddies over to compensate for the lack of firepower.

If you open a lights leg armor, trust me, they will **** off. No light pilot wants to get legged, its pretty much assured instant death unless you can limp into cover and hide.

[Curccu]

Cementi, on 20 September 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

They are still silly as F***.

I have no sympathy for anyone complaining about the LMG nerf. Don't worry in a couple months they will dial it back even more to where it should be.

Do you mean they dial them back to the point that no one in tier1 is willing to use them again because they are once again most useless weapon in the game?

[GrimRiver]

The only benefit LMGs had over MG/HMG was range.

If you take away that range and make it the same as MG/HMG and LMG would perform very subpar.
(Not saying actually do that, only using that as an exp)

What made LMGs decent was mechs that could boat them effectively, of which there is very few mechs in the game that can do that, making those builds more viable than they were before which were considered to be purely trolling annoyance builds but now are actually a threat and tryhard/potatoes don't want those troll builds to be a threat to them.

For the first few years of MGs life it was the most totally useless trash grade unviable weapon in the game, NOBODY took them to be used as weapons, only as hardpoint fillers to annoy targets.

Present day MGs are finally useful and people want them stomped into the dirt.

And now there is some starting to whine about STD MGs being op even though they remain mostly unchanged before new tech came out, they want the only job MGs are good at to be nerfed into the ground. :/

Edited by GrimRiver, 20 September 2017 - 09:47 AM.

[Shard Phoenix]

Asym, on 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

<snip>

There's the reality; grok that and let that sink in...........

Couple things...

1) Don't forget that "Tier" in this game isn't always an accurate representation of a player's skill level. If you've ever watched players live-stream (or watched some youtube) "T1" matches, you see the same type of crap you see in lower brackets. So it's no surprise a couple of "T2" pilots couldn't kill an Urbanmech, or that some players simply don't have the ability to deal with lights.

2) Zergling is correct, people just giving up creates more problems than it solves. It's actually pretty surprising what can be accomplished if you at least decide to go down swinging, rather than running and "dying tired". I've seen so many matches get thrown simply by virtue of players being more interested in running away because they see the situation as hopeless.

[Cementi]

Curccu, on 20 September 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

Do you mean they dial them back to the point that no one in tier1 is willing to use them again because they are once again most useless weapon in the game?

To be honest I would prefer a redesign. Get rid of the crit BS and change them from a face time weapon (which is bad for lights) to a short .5 second burst that does 2 damage with a short 1 second cooldown.

The way they are right now if you have 3 or more ballistic hard points your often better off bringing large energy/missle options to open up the armor and then just removing the components with your mgs while you cooldown. Why even use large ballistics?

[Asym]

Zergling, on 20 September 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

If a player cannot kill a light, then I must question if they are even 'average'. No offence intended.

Then they did not have sufficient skill and/or firepower.

The Urbanmech is not, and never has been, 'OP'.

I am not seeing players intentionally ignoring lights; I'm seeing players that simply don't know basic tactics, like 'don't expose your rear to MGs'.

The moment the going gets tough for them, they turn around and run away, dying incredibly fast as a result, where if they had stood their ground and kept their tough frontal armor facing the MGs, they would have lasted considerably longer, maybe even survived.

With respect....
Look, what really is average in this game? We've been arguing that for months.... Average isn't relevant to the condition that exists: destroying very small mechs that "seem" or are difficult to destroy.... I've have asked to and dropped with tier 1 players, some of the best in this game IMO that couldn't kill lights efficiently or effectively. I was there. I watched. I observed. I took notes and game after game, those above average players simply, were not effective......

Skill and firepower. Again, you're aiming at the wrong target.... You sometimes, even with 5 mechs at once, can't kill some lights... Especially, if they are all early game and un-damaged.... Again, I'm a T3 so I'm seeing (T1) T2, T3 and T4's..... Seen it with me own eyes.... Not a skill problem because the "other players" are above average. Not firepower because they are above average players and know the optimal weapons configurations.... If this were just an assumption, I'd see this only "once in a while"...........I see it all the time. So, I started playing lights and a Nova-S and I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, some lights are just min-assaults and ton for ton, have more sustainability than a large array of mediums and some heavy mechs.... That's a reality based on the confluence of balancing errors after errors that are compounding larger issues and creating greater and greater "holes" in the balancing concept.....

The Urbie.... Well, the loyalty awards give me one in a few months and guess what, it's time to test this theory out. Like I did with the LMG's on my ACH and Nova-S.... If I can kill that easily, and as you've pointed out, I'm a Potato and below average, well then, how did I manage as a below average potato T3 killing 3 or 4 larger mechs and achieving 600+ damage??? Not just once my friend??? Oooh, it was fun just tearing the crap out of them from the rear, over and over and over again....

Oh please, I've had conversation after conversation about where lights are and the consensus is that "it don't matter" and most of us figure that there are more damage and skill points in ignoring the little buggers all of us couldn't kill anyway..... Exposing our rears..........well, there is that we'd love to flash the little buggers......but, the reality is that you can't stand still and back into a wall: it doesn't matter anyway with a lights boating LMG's.....they strip you no matter the angle ! I've done this myself in my ACH and my Nova and guess what, "resistance is futile" big boy, "prepare to die..." And geeze, I'm just a below average super spud potato........can you imagine a real light or medium driver that knows what they are doing????? One of the highest damage and # of Kill games I've ever played was in my Nova-s that has 4 LMG's......

Yes, recording fights like this would be a hoot ! And, there should be a contest built around "topics" and the top 3 videos would receive prizes.... A good learning tool as well..........

Food for thought. The buck can't be passed and I enjoy this game that I'm staying but, I'm not spending a cent on PGI nor am I playing but just enough to see where MWO goes..... And, when I get an Urbie, invite me to drop with you, eh? We'll test this theory, just the two of us....

[Zergling]

Asym, on 20 September 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

With respect....
Look, what really is average in this game? We've been arguing that for months.... Average isn't relevant to the condition that exists: destroying very small mechs that "seem" or are difficult to destroy.... I've have asked to and dropped with tier 1 players, some of the best in this game IMO that couldn't kill lights efficiently or effectively. I was there. I watched. I observed. I took notes and game after game, those above average players simply, were not effective......

Skill and firepower. Again, you're aiming at the wrong target.... You sometimes, even with 5 mechs at once, can't kill some lights... Especially, if they are all early game and un-damaged.... Again, I'm a T3 so I'm seeing (T1) T2, T3 and T4's..... Seen it with me own eyes.... Not a skill problem because the "other players" are above average. Not firepower because they are above average players and know the optimal weapons configurations.... If this were just an assumption, I'd see this only "once in a while"...........I see it all the time.

Average is about 1.00 Wins/Losses, 0.90 Kills/Deaths and 0.70 Kills/Battle and 200 average Match Score.

Don't confuse Tier with skill; it is entirely possible for below average players to reach Tier 1. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the majority of Tier 1 players are below average.

Also note that the average isn't actually very 'good'. It isn't until a player is performing in the upper 25% range they actually have some idea of how to play.
Of course, that is entirely a subjective opinion, but that is how it feels to me when I go up against players with average stats; it just doesn't feel like I'm fighting 'good' players.

Asym, on 20 September 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

So, I started playing lights and a Nova-S and I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, some lights are just min-assaults and ton for ton, have more sustainability than a large array of mediums and some heavy mechs.... That's a reality based on the confluence of balancing errors after errors that are compounding larger issues and creating greater and greater "holes" in the balancing concept.....

I disagree

I also note that your stats in Mediums, Heavies and Assaults are considerably better than your stats in Lights.

Asym, on 20 September 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

The Urbie.... Well, the loyalty awards give me one in a few months and guess what, it's time to test this theory out. Like I did with the LMG's on my ACH and Nova-S.... If I can kill that easily, and as you've pointed out, I'm a Potato and below average, well then, how did I manage as a below average potato T3 killing 3 or 4 larger mechs and achieving 600+ damage??? Not just once my friend??? Oooh, it was fun just tearing the crap out of them from the rear, over and over and over again....

Everyone can have good battles if they play enough battles; it is consistency that matters.

As I mentioned previously, I had a battle in my Mist Lynx this month where I scored 6 solo kills. That isn't representative of my actual consistent performance, because I just got lucky.

Asym, on 20 September 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Oh please, I've had conversation after conversation about where lights are and the consensus is that "it don't matter" and most of us figure that there are more damage and skill points in ignoring the little buggers all of us couldn't kill anyway..... Exposing our rears..........well, there is that we'd love to flash the little buggers......but, the reality is that you can't stand still and back into a wall: it doesn't matter anyway with a lights boating LMG's.....they strip you no matter the angle ! I've done this myself in my ACH and my Nova and guess what, "resistance is futile" big boy, "prepare to die..." And geeze, I'm just a below average super spud potato........can you imagine a real light or medium driver that knows what they are doing????? One of the highest damage and # of Kill games I've ever played was in my Nova-s that has 4 LMG's......

Then you are having conversations with the wrong people.

I've had battles against heavier mechs in my Mist Lynx, where I was barely scratching their frontal armor.
Suddenly they get cold feet and ran away, which resulted in my dropping them 10 seconds later because they exposed their rear armor.
If they had stayed and fought on, they might very well have killed me, because I wasn't able to get around them and hit their rear armor unless they exposed it like that.

Asym, on 20 September 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Yes, recording fights like this would be a hoot ! And, there should be a contest built around "topics" and the top 3 videos would receive prizes.... A good learning tool as well..........

I record all my battles, although I delete the non-interesting ones. I think I still have the battles where enemies made serious mistakes against my Mist Lynx, would you like me to upload them?

Asym, on 20 September 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Food for thought. The buck can't be passed and I enjoy this game that I'm staying but, I'm not spending a cent on PGI nor am I playing but just enough to see where MWO goes..... And, when I get an Urbie, invite me to drop with you, eh? We'll test this theory, just the two of us....

As a rule, I don't group up (because I hate the group queue).

You are free to post your performance statistics after a few dozen battles in the Urbie though, in comparison to your statistics in heavier mechs.

[DerMaulwurf]

Even with the nerf the LMG still has a tighter spread than the other MGs.

If a spread of 0.5 is "devastating" for the LMG, then how is the HMG coping with 1.1 spread?

[kesmai]

Pffff.
Still works.
Nothing to see here.

[SOL Ranger]

DerMaulwurf, on 20 September 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

Even with the nerf the LMG still has a tighter spread than the other MGs.

If a spread of 0.5 is "devastating" for the LMG, then how is the HMG coping with 1.1 spread?

I haven't stated what you claim, personally I have little issue with increased spread if it would be compensated for in terms of other noticeable practicality properties, as in not actually directly nerfing the weapon as a whole.

If you read the OP it clearly states that just above the list of actual concerns I have with the changes, if you can be bothered to read it that is.

My main concern is that the weapon is losing most power when used in configurations of few LMG's on especially heavier slower mechs, yet boating still is effective on the fringe mechs MLX/ACH and as such the change is just misguided. The change destroys LMG use in all other areas but extreme boating, the complete opposite of what the problem was as it happens.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Zergling, on 19 September 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

Honestly, LMGs were only really good against bad players, so really didn't need a nerf. But I had doubts PGI would be able to realise that, so I fully expected a nerf in this patch.

Like, one of the times I took my Mist Lynx out early this month, I went and scored 6 solo kills. One of them as an AFK/DCed player, but the rest were live and active, and it was just an absurd score.
But when I looked through my video recording, I could see that the players I killed were all playing badly; they just weren't treating my Mist Lynx as a threat and allowed me to get easy sustained shots at their backsides.

MG Mist Lynxes don't present themselves as dire existential threats to those who don't understand what machine guns can do to their gooey centers. The game itself certainly doesn't warn players not to let machine gun boats touch their exposed internals.

Further most players at tier 1 or 2 should by now know not to chase down an enemy light too far and lose focus on bigger threats. Mist Lynxes have been joke mechs for so long, it may take players some time to adjust to the fact that they're actual threats now. MG Mist Lynxes and Cheetahs are exceptions to the "don't chase the squirrel" rule. They're so dangerous in the mid-late game that they must be dealt with early in the match.

[SOL Ranger]

kesmai, on 20 September 2017 - 10:49 PM, said:

Pffff.
Still works.
Nothing to see here.

LMG's are largely only viable on the extreme boating mechs, the nerf hit hardest the mech builds that use only a few of them and the slower mechs they could be used on, the polar opposite of what would be a reasonable change as it happens.

LMG's were free of niche and now they're thrown back to essentially only be used by MLX/ACH and possibly maybe the SHC-P. Nothing to see here indeed, lets just close our eyes to this impressive progress we're seeing,

[kesmai]

SOL Ranger, on 20 September 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

LMG's are largely only viable on the extreme boating mechs, the nerf hit hardest the mech builds that use only a few of them and the slower mechs they could be used on, the polar opposite of what would be a reasonable change as it happens.

LMG's were free of niche and now they're thrown back to essentially only be used by MLX/ACH and possibly maybe the SHC-P. Nothing to see here indeed, lets just close our eyes to this impressive progress we're seeing,

As if they where very useful if not boated.
The 'free' of niche is questionable and who has successfully used them without taking more than one lmg?
Thing is they are useful in 3 or more. As they have been before the nerf.

As a low tonnage, no heat weapon lmg's have been too good and that straight because pgi released those boating omnipods whithout thinking.
I guess the shard sold well untill now.

[SOL Ranger]

kesmai, on 20 September 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

As if they where very useful if not boated.
The 'free' of niche is questionable and who has successfully used them without taking more than one lmg?
Thing is they are useful in 3 or more. As they have been before the nerf.

As a low tonnage, no heat weapon lmg's have been too good and that straight because pgi released those boating omnipods whithout thinking.
I guess the shard sold well untill now.

"Too good" in the most extreme of situations is the key point here, and they weren't even "too good" in SHC-P with 7x but rather 8x and the new found agility made them cross over and many reasons for that is when the stars align with excellent players using them, so why are we nerfing the SHC-P, the Arrow, JM6 and every other mech that uses LMG's?

They are specialised weapons and specialised weapons perform well in those exact specialised situations, moreso in amassed specialised configurations in the hands of excellent players in extremely nimble and fast mechs, most notably against slow/bad players and mechs with builds that don't very well work against that.

The phenomenon here is exponential performance growth, yet that extreme effective power does not exist in the use of few of these weapons. To reiterate, the performance with these weapons can be something completely anemic in some situations, and then extreme in another, they are polarised and when all other aspects of gameplay polarisation coincide they become utterly ridiculous.

This is basic logic, however an all encompassing nerf to raw performance only causes excessive harm to the weapon when not pushed to the most extremes of boating while still remaining tolerable at the peak performance because now the point of balance is only top maximal performance when optimised, that is an unreasonable direction to take just as it is to completely balance by potato it is unreasonable to balance by the top 1% and optimal mechs and situations that can happen.

That is my gripe, that is my message, that is what my suggestions here and elsewhere in the recent months address, the polarisation of the weapon needs to be adjusted into general purpose properties that do not escalate into exponential power growth, without nerfing.

Now they're even worse when not boated and that isn't an improvement in any sense when it comes to game design, that is in no way reasonable. Development should go towards actually positive more customisation and mixed weapon friendly builds, at least not become worse.

Edited by SOL Ranger, 21 September 2017 - 01:40 AM.