128 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

So, here's the variety:

Assaults are heavily favoring the SNV with ERLL. Probably more variety here than any other weight class, since I've also seen KDK-3, MAD-IIC, WHK-C, MAL-1P, MAL-MX90, and BLR-2C, but it's the SNV really winning the games in a big way. Even Oz, who are the only ones I've seen still choose the BLR and who used the BLR-2C in Drops 1 and 3, took SNV when they flipped sides for Drop 2. I'm not actually sure why they went with the BLR-2C at all instead of the longer-ranged 1G, the structure didn't appear factor into their win, and I'm not sure why they went with the BLR at all since they had them hanging out in the open and projecting threat for most of the match thus rendering the high mounts superfluous. But, I wasn't in the cockpit.

Heavies is Summoners and Night Gyrs all day every day, except one weird match where JagerXIII took...wait for it...a poptart TBR (duh) and was paired with an EBJ.

Mediums Heavily favoring the HBK-IIC-A with ERPPC, oddballs with Streaks and the occasional Assassin, Nova, or Storm Crow. These seem to be the most varied game-to-game, as they bounce between Light supplement and surrogate Heavy.

Lights are almost always the WLF-1 and ACH-E. Strangely, don't recall seeing any Javelins yet. Have seen a few Firestarters (something something what's old is new again, etc.).

Overall...it looks like the same chassis that have dominated the game for the last two years are still dominant, with some internal rearrangement. The ones that are new are actually new new (SNV), but would probably be pretty dominant two years ago as well. Most everything is running what you would be expecting them to run. I saw PHL use an ATM strat with their Night Gyrs that paid off big time, but I can't tell if that was because WDMC threw (and they f*cking did; nobody serious brings poke, votes HPG, and then charges into brawl not once, but twice) or if the NTGs using ATM were actually good. From a few of the games I've seen, I would almost swear there's a metagame going on where you try to get yourself into the loser's bracket to face easier opponents and then make a come-back at the end.

Best games to watch, so far, are RJF vs. EON and D5 vs. Oz. Those are excruciatingly close matches.



GH and range are the keys. Had LL and ERLL been 3x for ghost at the time, the STK might very well have eclipsed the HGN even without the jump jets, but having to fire 2+2+2 was just way too much time. 3+3 was a radical rearrangement. For range, the introduction of long-range, light weight weapons and no explosive XLs with the Clans changed the game, yeah. If it were still just IS, though, I'm not so sure those 'Mechs wouldn't still be quite potent with good JJs, possibly even still meta-defining. CTF probably eclipsed by the GHR, but really that's just more of the same.



Dunno if I'd agree with that assessment, either. It has a giant alpha, but it spreads and has appreciable duration as well as flight time. And it's no faster than the pop-tarts of yore, it's the same speed. Likely outcome is they position the poptarts and you get poked to death on approach and then finished by Lights or UACs from the Assaults. The Marauder in general handles pop-tarts poorly at any speed due to the odd angles poptarts can take and long side torsos from the flank. Marauders are good for attack, attack, attack.



It will skew it, though, because Assaults are the centerpiece of every deck. The Lights carry matches, but what they do depends on what the Assaults are doing.



Well, the MCII is already viable up close and mobile enough to last, was my point. Letting it also bounce is just...ridiculous, honestly. It doesn't need that help and I don't want it to get it.

Huge alpha, sure it spreads a bit but it's also got more armor than any Atlas did at the time. No quirks, remember? Also the maps were half the size. The only reason brawling wasn't a thing is that hitreg was horrible for SRMs. We had a short period after HSR came in that SRM brawling was the main thing, before Clans dropped and it was just Clans for days. Two alphas from poptarts at the time was smaller than most single alphas you'd eat today. 70 pts of damage to close on an enemy who's got a 35pt alpha, vs my 86? I'll take a bit of spread for that trade. Plus I'm 110 each ST, 150 on the CT, he's at most 3/4ths of that?

Remember, at the time when the Boomjag came out it was considered 'game breaking' with it's amazing 2xAC20 alpha and 2 MLs. Also remember the old Frozen? Most the match took place at 300-400m or less.

MCII is strong because it's got high mounts and clan firepower is high and clan mechs are fast and CXL, and it has decent hitboxes. All assaults having semi-useful JJs isn't going to improve or weaken any of that. It would however strongly benefit the Highlander and IIC. It'd help the SNV too, but also every assault with JJs.

Admittedly I can't say it would help them enough to make a real difference. However if that's a big concern then nerf the MCII for JJs.

The point this was originally moving for is that with gauss/ppc decoupled the main objection to poptarting is resolved. Poptarting still exists, but it's not super dominant. Assaults with useful JJs doesn't hugely impact that. It might give a couple more assaults a leg up and make them competitive, some even as poptarts, but not to a degree that would dominate gameplay.

[SPNKRGrenth]

Undo one of the best things to have happened to this game in the past few year? No, just no. I have a better idea instead. Un-nerf heavy and assault jumpjets. Let those 1 and 2 ton wastes of space actually do something. Now THAT would increase build diversity in fun and interesting ways.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

Huge alpha, sure it spreads a bit but it's also got more armor than any Atlas did at the time. No quirks, remember? Also the maps were half the size. The only reason brawling wasn't a thing is that hitreg was horrible for SRMs. We had a short period after HSR came in that SRM brawling was the main thing, before Clans dropped and it was just Clans for days. Two alphas from poptarts at the time was smaller than most single alphas you'd eat today. 70 pts of damage to close on an enemy who's got a 35pt alpha, vs my 86? I'll take a bit of spread for that trade. Plus I'm 110 each ST, 150 on the CT, he's at most 3/4ths of that?

Armor isn't really swinging this. You are getting pounded by 35 PPFLD every 3 seconds, if even that long, and soon you'll find your ST on the ground. That was a problem for the Marauder even before PGI linked PPC and Gauss ghost heat groupings; pop-tarting TBRs were hard to deal with, and strictly on pop-tarting quality the TBR was not as potent offensively as the old CTF-3D.

I think you are also misplacing when the SRM brawl meta happened, that was actually after quirks, notably the second round megabuff. Brawl-push was extremely strong at that point, and it's the only time when it was. When they fixed the missiles, everybody went through a phase of trying them out but they weren't the meta.

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Remember, at the time when the Boomjag came out it was considered 'game breaking' with it's amazing 2xAC20 alpha and 2 MLs. Also remember the old Frozen? Most the match took place at 300-400m or less.

Boomjag complaints were always from bads. That 'Mech has always been nothing but a boogieman, and the AC/20 has been suffering unfairly ever since. When it got nerfed, the Jager disappeared until the 30% UAC/5 jam chance quirk briefly resurrected it in early 2016 as a dupe-management 'Mech to the Warhammer.

Old Frozen matches went brawl only after the Clans and IS quirk buffs, before then it was still mostly trading, IIRC. Unless you're talking QP. Then it was one team sitting in B3 while the other team surrounded them and pounded them into sand for 80% of the drops on that map.

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MCII is strong because it's got high mounts and clan firepower is high and clan mechs are fast and CXL, and it has decent hitboxes. All assaults having semi-useful JJs isn't going to improve or weaken any of that. It would however strongly benefit the Highlander and IIC. It'd help the SNV too, but also every assault with JJs.

Admittedly I can't say it would help them enough to make a real difference. However if that's a big concern then nerf the MCII for JJs.

The point this was originally moving for is that with gauss/ppc decoupled the main objection to poptarting is resolved. Poptarting still exists, but it's not super dominant. Assaults with useful JJs doesn't hugely impact that. It might give a couple more assaults a leg up and make them competitive, some even as poptarts, but not to a degree that would dominate gameplay.

No, the MCII getting good jets like that raises it even higher than everything else precisely because it already has those other things going for it. Adding good jets isn't a flat, equal buff to all chassis that get them, it's multiplicative on top of whatever advantages they already have. Buff the MCII, and you make it that much harder to bring everything else to rough parity.

If you give Assaults good jets, I will capitulate that you won't get a plague of poptarting Highlanders. But you are also not going to get brawling MCIIs. You are, instead, going to get 40 PPFLD poptarting MCIIs, and that will operate in conjunction with an ERLL boat and it will be quite dominant. Especially on maps like Mining Collective and Canyon Network. And unlike the KDK-3...it doesn't have vulnerable Gauss Rifles.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MadRover, on 22 September 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Oh they wanted to make things interesting. Unfortunately it sounds like that was the wrong place at the wrong time. Did y'all win at least? I don't have a whole lot of time to really watch when I can be playing myself.

No, because players having pet mechs that aren't meta relevant is bad, and that's what we had, a case of pilots with pet mechs who refuse to adapt.

[Daurock]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

If you give Assaults good jets, I will capitulate that you won't get a plague of poptarting Highlanders. But you are also not going to get brawling MCIIs. You are, instead, going to get 40 PPFLD poptarting MCIIs, and that will operate in conjunction with an ERLL boat and it will be quite dominant. Especially on maps like Mining Collective and Canyon Network. And unlike the KDK-3...it doesn't have vulnerable Gauss Rifles.

I agree with you here wholeheartedly, that if they give all assaults good JJ's, the same mechs that are dominant now will just become more so. If we're going to improve JJ's, we need to be selective about it. Perhaps a quirk pass, improving JJs for the highlander specifically?

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

He wasn't supposed to be in all fairness so take that with a grain of salt. Our heavy and medium pilots just refuse to adapt to the meta sadly ;_;

That said, as far as Tourmaline goes, I have yet to see an ERLL SVN that really competes with the 6 UAC2 MX90, the main problem really comes down to positioning though.

To his credit, it looked like he did a competitive amount of work in that TBR, though I can't say how much of that was strikes versus weapons fire. If mostly strikes, bleh.

I can't really speak to how the MX90 does, my guess is it would have probably punished the SNV and BLR-2C but have trouble with the SMN. All I can say is that it seems like teams that fail to bring ERLL at all on Tourmaline seem to consistently lose if it goes to trading.

Daurock, on 22 September 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

I agree with you here wholeheartedly, that if they give all assaults good JJ's, the same mechs that are dominant now will just become more so. If we're going to improve JJ's, we need to be selective about it. Perhaps a quirk pass, improving JJs for the highlander specifically?

I would rather they just make everything else not terribad by comparison and then we can make all JJs do what they are supposed to do.

MadRover, on 22 September 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Just play for fun. You don't always have to go hardcore meta try hard mode on everything (not saying you do) but sometimes playing a few games outside of the meta will give you a breather. I myself just bought and built a laser vomit rifleman (my first one) and I'm thinking about taking my RAC5 MAD-3R out instead. Doesn't hurt if you can do well outside the meta, and especially in a very tier 1 game. Also, I do really reckless things with builds that are meta -cough EBJ cough- and just simply amuse myself. You'll be surprised how much you can actually get away with.

Try the PPC+MedLas (standard MedLas, not ER) vomit on the RFL-5D, it's way more entertaining and it can actually pour out good sustain damage from a solid good distance.

Standard PPCs are honestly too short-ranged at 540 meters. At 650, with that 20% velocity quirk and -5% heat, they feel perfectly tuned for their DPS and HPS. They should be like that on every 'Mech, I'd be more inclined to use them elsewhere if they were.

Man..if the Rifleman were 75 tons, it would be competitive-grade with no other changes to it.

[metallio]

Revis Volek, on 21 September 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

IPGI was the only one that thought it was a good idea

I'm pretty sure I'm happy with the change.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

Armor isn't really swinging this. You are getting pounded by 35 PPFLD every 3 seconds, if even that long, and soon you'll find your ST on the ground. That was a problem for the Marauder even before PGI linked PPC and Gauss ghost heat groupings; pop-tarting TBRs were hard to deal with, and strictly on pop-tarting quality the TBR was not as potent offensively as the old CTF-3D.

I think you are also misplacing when the SRM brawl meta happened, that was actually after quirks, notably the second round megabuff. Brawl-push was extremely strong at that point, and it's the only time when it was. When they fixed the missiles, everybody went through a phase of trying them out but they weren't the meta.




Boomjag complaints were always from bads. That 'Mech has always been nothing but a boogieman, and the AC/20 has been suffering unfairly ever since. When it got nerfed, the Jager disappeared until the 30% UAC/5 jam chance quirk briefly resurrected it in early 2016 as a dupe-management 'Mech to the Warhammer.

Old Frozen matches went brawl only after the Clans and IS quirk buffs, before then it was still mostly trading, IIRC. Unless you're talking QP. Then it was one team sitting in B3 while the other team surrounded them and pounded them into sand for 80% of the drops on that map.



No, the MCII getting good jets like that raises it even higher than everything else precisely because it already has those other things going for it. Adding good jets isn't a flat, equal buff to all chassis that get them, it's multiplicative on top of whatever advantages they already have. Buff the MCII, and you make it that much harder to bring everything else to rough parity.

If you give Assaults good jets, I will capitulate that you won't get a plague of poptarting Highlanders. But you are also not going to get brawling MCIIs. You are, instead, going to get 40 PPFLD poptarting MCIIs, and that will operate in conjunction with an ERLL boat and it will be quite dominant. Especially on maps like Mining Collective and Canyon Network. And unlike the KDK-3...it doesn't have vulnerable Gauss Rifles.

Frozen? Frozen was almost always played around the dropship. It was trades for a bit, then either a push over the nose or around the tail. Unless one side was atypically coordinated, then it was straight into a push over the nose before the other team set up.

Brawling turned into a thing for a bit before Clans came out - gauss nerf, looks like some other stuff. Surprised how much I had forgotten. Looks like it was late 2013. As a side note, I recommend taking a Command Chair post walk-about from time to time. Go look at the old posts, back when they would have a link to a discussion thread (that they would participate in) at the bottom. You know, back when they gave a ****.

So nerf the MCII JJs but otherwise buff assault and light JJs overall. Also buff IS PPCs.

I'd be happy with any assault like either Highlander or Victor or anything else with a JJ that currently isn't worth the tonnage being worth the tonnage again. Currently they're not. If the consensus is that if assaults have useful JJs then anything without JJs is suddenly trash, fair enough. However i'm not absolutely sure that's the case. For example, is it going to mean the UAC2 Mauler never sees the light of day, that role gets taken by a new JJ assault for poptarting?

Always going to be fewer viable mechs in comp than anywhere else. The best at each role. I would agree that balance has been better before - if only because that role was filled by a mix of IS and Clan mechs. However I'd love to see a way to let Assaults have JJs that don't suck.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Frozen? Frozen was almost always played around the dropship. It was trades for a bit, then either a push over the nose or around the tail. Unless one side was atypically coordinated, then it was straight into a push over the nose before the other team set up.

Are we talking QP or comp? Because in QP, it was almost always fought in the city, with the dropship being a giant red herring that got you killed unless you coordinated around it. In comp, it was trades for a bit with a final push through the dropship until Clans and quirks made full brawl-push a workable thing.

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Brawling turned into a thing for a bit before Clans came out - gauss nerf, looks like some other stuff. Surprised how much I had forgotten. Looks like it was late 2013. As a side note, I recommend taking a Command Chair post walk-about from time to time. Go look at the old posts, back when they would have a link to a discussion thread (that they would participate in) at the bottom. You know, back when they gave a ****.

I wasn't here for 2013. I was here from Feb 2014 onwards. When you say "before Clans dropped", that gives only a ~4 month period between when PGI hosted the Lords vs. SJR finals that convinced them the poptarting meta was getting really bad (after that, ERPPC heat went from 12 to 15, cool-down went from 3 to 4, then came the velocity nerfs, etc.) and that's the period I'm thinking of. In that time frame, they introduced HSR and also fixed missiles (again?), but there was no brawl meta. What there may have been in QP were a lot of people taking brawl builds, which forced a pseudo-meta, but that was just a result of group-think rather than being a result of mathematical optimization.

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So nerf the MCII JJs but otherwise buff assault and light JJs overall. Also buff IS PPCs.

Or, and here's a subset of comprehensive changes:

• IS MedLas/ERML ghost heat threshold goes from 6 to 8
  
• Heat on ER MedLas drops to 4.2
  
• Duration on isLPL goes up to 0.9, damage back to 11, range up to 390
  
• cLPL range to 540, damage back up to 13, duration back to 1.12
  
• cERML range back to 405, heat down to 6, duration back to 1.15
  
• cMPL damage back to 7.5, heat back to 5.5.
  
• cSPL damage to 5, duration to 0.75
  
• isSPL damage to 4, range to 120
  
• isSL/ERSL damage to 3.5
  
• isERLL range to 690
  
• Clan ER/Pulse lasers retain superior optimum range but have max-range comprehensively reduced to 1.75x max-range (this is a buff to pulse, nerf to ER, results in all lasers both IS and Clan capping out around the same point with a few extra tweaks to optimums here and there)
  
• IS DHS get a modest (10-15%) dissipation enhancement
  
• All non-ER PPC range extended to 600 meters, velocity to 1450 m/s
  
• All standard ACs and cACs have shortened cool-down, longer range, and higher projectile velocity relative to Ultras
  
• Ghost heat on AC/20s removed
  
• HGauss optimum to 450-500 meters
  
• Weapon Quirks come off
  
• See where the chips fall

...and then we can just make JJs good, because the superiority on gap on the MC-II would be dramatically reduced. We may even be able to unbork some of the Clan agility without breaking anything! This is a basic-minded list, there are more nuanced and interesting ways to fix the balance (e.g. tighten up MRM spread and bump velocity more, and IS can compete sideways with Gauss-Vomit at the mid-range by using MRM-Vomit), but this is the boring KISS approach.

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I'd be happy with any assault like either Highlander or Victor or anything else with a JJ that currently isn't worth the tonnage being worth the tonnage again. Currently they're not. If the consensus is that if assaults have useful JJs then anything without JJs is suddenly trash, fair enough. However i'm not absolutely sure that's the case. For example, is it going to mean the UAC2 Mauler never sees the light of day, that role gets taken by a new JJ assault for poptarting?

Quicksilver should probably chime in here, but I don't think a UAC/2 Mauler handles poptarts well at all. Projectile flight time at 700+ meters is a killer, and it's a one-way street since something like a Summoner can dodge it but the Mauler can't. You need lasers to fight that. I mentioned in another thread, I think the fact that D5 didn't bring any ERLL boats cost them their recent match with Oz. I saw similar happen in MWOWC16 when 228 got picked apart by ERLL Spiders that they couldn't handle because their ranged firepower was similarly all tied up in cERPPC. Same concept. A pop-tarting MCII would crush a UAC/2 Mauler because the Mauler is very long-range power-position. Somebody draws aggro from the Mauler, MCII pops out and slams it. Wash, rinse, repeat, Mauler gets locked down. You don't necessarily need a pop-tart to do this, though. When the KDK-3 came out, the PPC-Gauss combo did the same. The vomit MC-II isn't as good at it right now because it's more of a mid-range 'Mech and would likely get filled with enough lead at 700+ meters that the trade is not worth it. Add the ability to fire 40 in a split second from 700+ meters, though? It's the KDK-3 again, subbing speed and exposure in for raw armor and firepower.

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Always going to be fewer viable mechs in comp than anywhere else. The best at each role. I would agree that balance has been better before - if only because that role was filled by a mix of IS and Clan mechs. However I'd love to see a way to let Assaults have JJs that don't suck.

The consensus, and I think the correct consensus, is that Assaults with ridiculous firepower and everything else going for them being as fast and agile as Heavies, or near enough, is bad.

[MischiefSC]

I'll bow to the more experienced consensus on JJ buffs.

However I will ask - most those changes still leave clan version superior to IS counterpart. Why? Especially adjusted for tonnage and spaces.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

However I will ask - most those changes still leave clan version superior to IS counterpart. Why? Especially adjusted for tonnage and spaces.

They don't when you count the dissipation buff. The AC related stuff isn't really gone into in depth, but given the dissipation change, really helps out IS dakka too as even 4 UAC5 Maulers generate a lot amount of heat.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

They don't when you count the dissipation buff. The AC related stuff isn't really gone into in depth, but given the dissipation change, really helps out IS dakka too as even 4 UAC5 Maulers generate a lot amount of heat.

I missed the IS DHS dissipation buff. Makes up for a lot. You're normalizing around DPS and damage/heat and pushing ranges out and velocity up, which ironically increases viability of brawling on most builds as you're not screwed at range if you've got a build that's mostly designed for up close.

However, taken as actual builds vs builds, call it 65 ton laservomit for mid-brawl (anything but long range really). I'm still looking at an EBJ bunching for 64+ vs about 53 for the IS, still at better range. With weapon quirks gone the better dissipation is going to bridge that?

I'm game with the changes but I'm trying to understand the math that bridges that. I agree 100% don't balance to potato but conversely you don't want to balance arou d a few key comp roles. Just because an IS ERLL build at X tons on most maps beats the expected meta Clan counterpart at the same tonnage range in a similar role doesn't mean those mechs are balanced.

You're talking about a nice 10% heat efficiency increase for IS, but also removing what's often 10-20% cooldown/range/already existing heat quirks at the same time.

Take the GH for IS ermls. Going to 8 is great - for 5 chassis and total of like 10 variants that can use it. The BLK and GHR would likely still take LPLs with it so wouldn't need 8, same with the BLR most likely - though 8 mls and a Gauss would be nifty, if mostly low mounted. It would probably only be relevant on the BJ.

At the very least though it seems like a good start to normalize stuff. Keeps the IS feel a bit while getting performance closer.

What about XLs?

Edited by MischiefSC, 22 September 2017 - 10:08 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'll bow to the more experienced consensus on JJ buffs.

However I will ask - most those changes still leave clan version superior to IS counterpart. Why? Especially adjusted for tonnage and spaces.

I did say it was a subset of changes. You should also consider that IS skill tree offers better laser duration and cool-down nodes.

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

I missed the IS DHS dissipation buff. Makes up for a lot. You're normalizing around DPS and damage/heat and pushing ranges out and velocity up, which ironically increases viability of brawling on most builds as you're not screwed at range if you've got a build that's mostly designed for up close.

However, taken as actual builds vs builds, call it 65 ton laservomit for mid-brawl (anything but long range really). I'm still looking at an EBJ bunching for 64+ vs about 53 for the IS, still at better range. With weapon quirks gone the better dissipation is going to bridge that?

I did the math awhile back for a 3x LPL + 5x ML on a Black Knight with 10% heat gen reduction and 19 DHS - I would locate the thread if the Search function wasn't broken - and found that the heat efficiency of that 57-point alpha was comparable to the 61-point alpha from a 2x cLPL + 5x cERML TBR with 25 DHS. The Clan 'Mech definitely had better dissipation, but the damage came out significantly slower (nominal beam DPS for the IS was 63.3, Clan was 53.0) and so I declared that a wash.

The conclusion, though, was that for isERML to be competitive they had to be at the same heat that MedLas were back then, or it wouldn't work. PGI kind of split the difference and dropped the heat on them to 4.5 and the isML to 3.4, likely anticipating the skill tree buffs, but that's not enough because skill tree buffs apply to Clans, too. The heat had to be 4.0. It's even worse now with LPL being gutted*.

At any rate, being able to run at a comparable speed, with the defensive quirks intact, LFEs being a thing, and improved heat management might actually make it worthwhile. The Clans are currently vomiting out 71 points from Heavy 'Mechs, it's true, but the big 68-point alphas didn't stop 57-point Black Knights from sh*tting all over Timberwolves January 2016.

* Contrary to popular opinion, the isLPL is pretty garbage right now. You pay two more tons and 0.25 extra heat for one single point of damage to combine it with lasers that already burn longer and run too hot, and that's a crappy trade. The Large Laser will give you superior range, less heat, and still a sub-1-second burn. This is especially true if you are running Assaults because you can't turn fast enough to make that LPL's shorter burn worth much anyway and a bigger engine, more sinks, and/or a TC would be way more valuable to you. than a piddly 2-3 points of damage.

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I'm game with the changes but I'm trying to understand the math that bridges that. I agree 100% don't balance to potato but conversely you don't want to balance arou d a few key comp roles. Just because an IS ERLL build at X tons on most maps beats the expected meta Clan counterpart at the same tonnage range in a similar role doesn't mean those mechs are balanced.

You're talking about a nice 10% heat efficiency increase for IS, but also removing what's often 10-20% cooldown/range/already existing heat quirks at the same time.

Many of those weapon quirks can and should be bundled into the weapons themselves because the weapons they apply to are bad. Everybody knows an AC/2 is garbage unless it gets that hilarious cool-down quirk on the BJ-1. On the BJ-1, they are potent enough that I have no inclination to swap them out for UAC/2. It's nice. Would that make ballistics boats OP if they fired 20% faster than current? I dunno, is a UAC/2 boat OP? I don't think so. It trades burst DPS for more consistent, but serviceable, average DPS. The AC/5 quirk on the Rifleman before the Skill Tree was the same way.

The main exceptions are those obviously under-gunned 'Mechs like the SDR-5V, LCT-1V, LCT-3V, etc. Those either require inflation, or need to keep quirks. Some of them don't even really have notable quirks at the moment (LCT-3V...so under quirked ;_; ).

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Take the GH for IS ermls. Going to 8 is great - for 5 chassis and total of like 10 variants that can use it. The BLK and GHR would likely still take LPLs with it so wouldn't need 8, same with the BLR most likely - though 8 mls and a Gauss would be nifty, if mostly low mounted. It would probably only be relevant on the BJ.

MAD-BH2 wouldn't have to ghost to fire 50 points using ERML/ML+Gauss/AC20
BNC-3S could fit more heatsinks in when running Gauss-vomit.
BJ-1X doesn't have to do weird things like pair 6x ERML with 2x LPPC to do what we all know it's gonna do
BL-7-KNT can run a 55 (57 under new paradigm) alpha with 2x LPL + 7x ERML on a large LFE instead of having to take three LPL and an XL

It's not necessarily just for the sake of increasing firepower, it's that it lets you bring current serviceable firepower with fewer of the compromises that make said firepower not worth it. It also opens the door to inflate hardpoints and create serviceable firepower where needed.

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At the very least though it seems like a good start to normalize stuff. Keeps the IS feel a bit while getting performance closer.

That's the general idea!

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What about XLs?

I wanted to avoid that can of worms for now. There are two camps, the "make the engines behave the same" camp and the "tie some sort of durability buff to the engine" camp. I'm in the latter, but the former is admittedly easier. We know for a fact that isXL exploding doesn't matter if you make them offensively and/or defensively potent enough, though. We saw that back in late 2015/early 2016 when they were steamrolling the Clans in every form of play for three months, so make of that what you will.

[InvictusLee]

Luminis, on 21 September 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

In hindsight, it just feels like a mistake to me.

I get why the PPC / Gauss combo was nerfed, don't get me wrong. But here we are, with Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit being the meta defining builds. My impression is that the old fashioned PPC / Gauss builds couldn't possibly kill or cripple 'Mechs any faster than the current Gauss / Laser Vomit builds can. They might be able to compete with Gauss / Laser Vomit builds, though, not least of all because of the much shorter facetime they require.

In other words, 50 points of pinpoint damage (plus ten splash damage) don't seem nearly as OP now that we've got some builds pushing 78 damage alphas with pure Laser builds or even 80+ with Gauss Vomit.

Most importantly, though, I'd argue that hitting the IS Gausses and PPCs was a huge mistake. A seriously, seriously big mistake. Would've gone a long way in the "equal but different" approach if the IS retained the Gauss / PPC combo. Fits with the "shorter burn time / less splash" motif as well. With that weapon combo in place for the IS only, the Nightstar might actually prove to be a huge bump in overall power for the IS. Dunno whether 2x Gauss + 2 Heavy PPC is feasible, but even ERPPCs or regular PPCs would do, I guess.

And here's the poll.

So, tl;dr:
PGI, plz unlink Gauss / PPC at least for the IS to improve balance, kthxbye.

/edit:
On a side note, revoking it on the Clan side also means the Deathstrike isn't the uncontested best variant of the Mad Cat Mk II anymore.

Best, MOST EFFECTIVE Clan Laser build that I've put together, and it's way way wayyyy better than a ppc/gauss build.
The nerf was totally unnecessary, and in fact, dumb.
Heavy Lasers have a stupid burn time, but 90% of the time with the skill tree fully unlocked, its negligable and actually faster than ER lasers.

[Y E O N N E]

Literally none of the Heavy lasers ever burn faster than the ER lasers.

Heavy Small is 1.2 seconds, ER small is 1.1 seconds.
Heavy Medium is 1.45 seconds, ER Medium is 1.25 seconds.
Heavy Large is 1.55 seconds, ER Large is 1.35 seconds.

Because the duration nodes apply to all lasers, the ER lasers will always burn shorter.

[Khobai]

despite the long beam duration, heavy laser damage per tick is still pretty decent though.

its more the lack of range that makes heavy lasers poor choices.

the high heat and insanely long cooldowns dont help either.

if PGI fixed any two of those three issues, heavy lasers would be on par with ER lasers.

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Best, MOST EFFECTIVE Clan Laser build that I've put together, and it's way way wayyyy better than a ppc/gauss build.

270m range is awful though. on a lot of maps you wont even be able to do damage while closing.

medium heavies just arnt an adequate alternative to medium ERs. even medium pulses have better range than the medium heavies: its pathetic.

Edited by Khobai, 23 September 2017 - 12:28 AM.

[Khobai]

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someone please tell me again that dual gauss and peeps are OP

dual gauss and ppc does FLPPD though. it doesnt spray its damage all over the place like frat bros with fabreeze

lasers spread their damage out. especially heavy lasers with their long beam durations. theyre far less lethal than gauss/ppc used to be when it was desynced.

[El Bandito]

November11th, on 22 September 2017 - 11:18 PM, said:

Best, MOST EFFECTIVE Clan Laser build that I've put together, and it's way way wayyyy better than a ppc/gauss build.
The nerf was totally unnecessary, and in fact, dumb.
Heavy Lasers have a stupid burn time, but 90% of the time with the skill tree fully unlocked, its negligable and actually faster than ER lasers.

HMLs are bad, mmk? Especially on a 60kph Assault that uses Gauss.

Col Jaime Wolf, on 23 September 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

do you one better

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b67c836047f1783

cooler, longer ranged with a 94 damage alpha (vs your 81 at 240m) and easy to min/max with the skill tree.

That's much better, but you should keep max armor on the cockpit. MCII is easy to headshot.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 September 2017 - 06:05 AM.

[Khobai]

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heavy lasers still do more damage per tick than normal ER's or pulse lasers, which means if your trading at optimal range against someone with either of those weapons and you get at least the same amount of burn on your target as he does you, you do more damage compared to ermeds/LPL/LL.

not after you take range into account. people dont trade at 270m. they trade at 400m+.

270m is brawling range. if youre going to brawl theres better weapons to bring than heavy lasers.

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heavy lasers are terrible for the heat but they are better than any other laser in the damage per tick

not really since damage drops off with range. so if you try to use a heavy medium laser at the same ranges as an ER medium the damage dropoff kills the heavy laser. the ER medium is way better at midrange trading. 270m is not the range bracket where damage trading typically occurs.

again the lack of range is the major issue for heavy lasers. the heat and massive cooldown are also issues.

Edited by Khobai, 23 September 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[H I A S]

Will not happen. The Playerbase is too bad for a healthy skill ceiling so PGI has to lower it even more.