128 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

Cuz mechs like the Highlander could make a return if JJs didn't suck. Now I'm not 100% on that but I would hesitate to say that just because PPCs + Gauss is gone that assaults should be able to poptart.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

That's the concern.

So show me what a 2HPPC, 2xAC5 poptart would look like. It's also hot AF and has the 90m minimum range.

I'm fine with the Highlander making some sort of a return - are you saying that with gauss-ppc changes as they are now it would replace the MKII? Even with useful JJs? Show me that build, cuz I want to play it even without JJ buffs.

[MadRover]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

You can give as many IS Assaults high mounted ballistic arms as you want, but if you don't also give them 10 energy hardpoints and bump the ghost heat on isERML to 8, they will not ever hold a candle to the MCII. You are still running around with a piddly 63 damage at 55 kph.

And no, the ammo wouldn't need a nerf down. That's half the problem right there; already spending a premium on an inferior weapon, let's spend even more on ammo so we can't have any left to combine with a decent amount of lasers...which we also need more of because they don't have a comparable damage to weight.

Figure the build do the math, please.

I'd never said IS gauss was going to get better. I said it was going to be an option once the Nightstar comes out but it will still be behind that stupid pay wall.

Also, my MCII build only goes up to 54 with gauss. I don't like the HLLs. Too hot and the duration is too long for me.

Edited by MadRover, 22 September 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

So show me what a 2HPPC, 2xAC5 poptart would look like. It's also hot AF and has the 90m minimum range.

I'm fine with the Highlander making some sort of a return - are you saying that with gauss-ppc changes as they are now it would replace the MKII? Even with useful JJs? Show me that build, cuz I want to play it even without JJ buffs.

Thirty seconds in Smurfy, didn't look for quirks and didn't search for every scrape of advantage. Depending on how powerful you plan on making the jump jets, though, I may be able to salvage two and a half additional tons for a 310 engine. And it's hot, but it's not running barebones on the heatsinks. That's a respectable sustained output.

And it's nearly always had a 90 m minimum range. Had one in 2014, didn't stop it then.

[Y E O N N E]

MadRover, on 22 September 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

I'd never said IS gauss was going to get better.

I know, that's the problem. You suggested something which would ultimately be a side-grade.

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I said it was going to be an option once the Nightstar comes out but it will still be behind that stupid pay wall.

An option for those who are steadfastly dedicated to IS, but still a worse performer overall?

Okay, then.

[MadRover]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

I know, that's the problem. You suggested something which would ultimately be a side-grade.



An option for those who are steadfastly dedicated to IS, but still a worse performer overall?

Okay, then.

Still a better option than most. That's an upgrade in my book no matter how minor it may seem. Also, it should go a bit faster than 55kph. Probably 57kph but that's just nitpicking detail at this point. I'll probably run an XL instead of doing the more rational thing. I'm usually dead loosing a ST anyway so no need to delay the inevitable. Time to pray for good hit boxes.

[Bud Crue]

MadRover, on 22 September 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

PGI is releasing the Nightstar coming October and it will be a gauss platform. The real question is why did it take PGI so long to release a gauss capable IS mech? Also, isAC is far superior to Clan in every way and form. So while we're complaining about Clan still having any ballistics worth taking, IS has 4 ballistic weapon systems that are worth taking that is also very bursty and now they're about to get a 5th that is straightforward as cGauss. PGI give IS some more gauss mechs since the lack of IS Gauss mechs is a very big problem and mech LGR worthwhile to even use.

Here's a simple fix for LGauss, increase damage to 10 per shell and reduce ammo per ton by 4 so IS will have multiple mechs and build varieties that can run gauss efficiently. (This here is what I call a buff)

My complaint/critique above is irrelevant to a particular weapon or even weapon combination per se. I am sure there are good and bad weapons, and good and bad mechs, and good and bad builds on both side of the tech. It is PGI that inexplicably doesn't seem aware of that.

The point is that PGI treats a few instances of good mechs, that are ideal or near ideal at using a good weapon (combination) as if ALL mechs are just as equally ideal and capable at using that good weapon (combination) as well. But we all know that is factually in error. Not all mechs using the weapon (combination) in question are equal. A Cataphract 1X with a Gauss and 2PPCs is not in any way equivelant to a poptarting gauss/ppc Night Gyr. But rather than treat such unequal mechs differently, PGI applied a nerf to all of them to the same extent across the board.

If this across the board application of the gauss/ppc nerf is precedent, then any future similar perceived weapon combination imbalance (e.g. gauss/vomit) is likely to get an across the board nerf as well. Doesn't matter if it is your "far superior" IS autocannons, or the gauss/vomit of the Deathstrike.

Edited by Bud Crue, 22 September 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

Thirty seconds in Smurfy, didn't look for quirks and didn't search for every scrape of advantage. Depending on how powerful you plan on making the jump jets, though, I may be able to salvage two and a half additional tons for a 310 engine. And it's hot, but it's not running barebones on the heatsinks. That's a respectable sustained output.

And it's nearly always had a 90 m minimum range. Had one in 2014, didn't stop it then.

Two tons of ammo. Hot AF. 54kph.

I want to be honest here - are you saying that if JJs were decent for assaults, that build, right there, would be better than gauss + laser MKII?

Because right now that build would get you crushed. Even if you could poptart passably well with it. Why isn't anyone using it as a side-poke build right now if it's so solid?

The things that made those poptart builds so strong before have been washed out by the power of Clan laser builds and comparatively fast assaults. The only mech I've had any luck at all with HPPCs on is the Reaver, just because I can put 2x HPPCs and 2x ERMLs on cockpit level mounts and poke with them and have 2 LMGs for cleaning up and stripping weapons on people I've peeled open. It's not great... but it's really not bad. However I've got 15 DHS on it and it's really, really hot. If I was trying to use JJs with it I could only get 2 shots in a row, maybe 3 on a cold map, before I'm too hot. Gauss + lasers is a lot more sustainable.

Again though, if that's a viable setup, why isn't it being used for side-poke?

[Nightbird]

Ummm we had warhammers, maulers, king crabs which were all good at running dual gauss + lasers?

[Y E O N N E]

MadRover, on 22 September 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Still a better option than most. That's an upgrade in my book no matter how minor it may seem.

Likely not better than a MAL-2P, which already exists but is still deemed insufficient.

It's not an upgrade, it's just "a thing you can do".

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Also, it should go a bit faster than 55kph. Probably 57kph but that's just nitpicking detail at this point. I'll probably run an XL instead of doing the more rational thing. I'm usually dead loosing a ST anyway so no need to delay the inevitable. Time to pray for good hit boxes.

.
It can have great hit-boxes, but that won't make it XL-viable because it will still be big and, even on the 9FC, still slow. 60 KPH on an XL 350 might be fast for an Assault, but it's still slow on the absolute speed scale and thus easy to pick apart. And it's going to be a Stalker with arms, in terms of hitboxes.

It will run an LFE 325, two Gauss, two LL, and three ERML at the fastest, and it gets only one extra heatsink with that. More practical, it will run an LFE 310 or 315 to get 12 or 13 DHS at the cost of running only marginally faster than a DWF. Or it has to drop firepower to a weaksauce 58 to keep the 325 and cool better.
It will run an LFE 325, two Gauss, two LL, and three ERML at the absolute fastest, and it gets only one extra heatsink with that

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Two tons of ammo. Hot AF. 54kph.

I want to be honest here - are you saying that if JJs were decent for assaults, that build, right there, would be better than gauss + laser MKII?

Because right now that build would get you crushed. Even if you could poptart passably well with it. Why isn't anyone using it as a side-poke build right now if it's so solid?

It may actually be quite effective against a laser MCII since it snap-fires and can hit at odd angles while the MCII is going to have to do only scrape damage with the lasers alone. But we really don't know, do we, since we don't have full power jets and those are game changers.

Though, now that you mention it, if you make Assault JJs solid then an MCII can pop-tart as well. Dual Gauss and an ERPPC punches you up to 67%, but if you've got 19x DHS to cool it then it's irrelevant. So, 90 tons with an XL350 gives you 63 kph, high mounts, armor, 40 PPFLD at 700 meters...

...yeah, no, that would actually be quite good. One of the most meta heavy 'Mechs at the moment is already a Summoner with just two ERPPC despite the fact that the laser vomit is so strong. The Night Gyr with 40 PPFLD also remains quite potent, but can't react to targets quickly like the Summoner can thanks to Gauss charge, lower running speed, and slightly lower mounts. The only reason it isn't taken is because big, slow targets (i.e. Assaults) are not the only thing it has to deal with. And I swear this is some deja vu, since I know this conversation has happened before...

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The things that made those poptart builds so strong before have been washed out by the power of Clan laser builds and comparatively fast assaults. The only mech I've had any luck at all with HPPCs on is the Reaver, just because I can put 2x HPPCs and 2x ERMLs on cockpit level mounts and poke with them and have 2 LMGs for cleaning up and stripping weapons on people I've peeled open. It's not great... but it's really not bad. However I've got 15 DHS on it and it's really, really hot. If I was trying to use JJs with it I could only get 2 shots in a row, maybe 3 on a cold map, before I'm too hot. Gauss + lasers is a lot more sustainable.

Speed doesn't dictate the game the way it used to, we've got Supernovas that are the meta while being a mere 4 kph faster, Maulers that are meta while being slower, and we have no assaults that can actually jump except the MAD-IIC if it gets the full set and maybe the Victor (which doesn't have the room for 2x AC/5 + 2x HPPC).

I've had luck with HPPCs on Blackjacks, Warhammers, Riflemen, Catapults. Granted, sometimes it's only one HPPC with the second being a PPC, but you have to know what it is you want to do. I've run the WHM-6R with twin HPPC and twin AC/5 and only 60 rounds with just 11x DHS, and it's hot as balls, but even a bad game is still usually around 450 damage. Is 5 extra PPFLD worth totally scrubbing your sustained output? IMHO, not usually, but that's for you to decide.

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Again though, if that's a viable setup, why isn't it being used for side-poke?

Flat-footed side-poke != side-tarting. The JJs make all of the difference there. Flat-footed PPFLD was never that great, only the KDK-3 made it great because of the combination of high mounts, high armor, and high relative speed.

[MadRover]

Bud Crue, on 22 September 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

My complaint/critique above is irrelevant to a particular weapon or even weapon combination per se. I am sure there are good and bad weapons, and good and bad mechs, and good and bad builds on both side of the tech. It is PGI that inexplicably doesn't seem aware of that.

The point is that PGI treats a few instances of good mechs, that are ideal or near ideal at using a good weapon (combination) as if ALL mechs are just as equally ideal and capable at using that good weapon (combination) as well. But we all know that is factually in error. Not all mechs using the weapon (combination) in question are equal. A Cataphract 1X with a Gauss and 2PPCs is not in any way equivelant to a poptarting gauss/ppc Night Gyr. But rather than treat such unequal mechs differently, PGI applied a nerf to all of them to the same extent across the board.

If this across the board application of the gauss/ppc nerf is precedent, then any future similar perceived weapon combination imbalance (e.g. gauss/vomit) is likely to get an across the board nerf as well. Doesn't matter if it is your "far superior" IS autocannons, or the gauss/vomit of the Deathstrike.

Then real balancing is never going to be achieved. All of this out of control nerfs becoming even more out of control means we need to challenge PGI to actually play the game. Even if it means delaying MW5 again, and again, and again they need to start playing this game like normal people.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

Thirty seconds in Smurfy, didn't look for quirks and didn't search for every scrape of advantage. Depending on how powerful you plan on making the jump jets, though, I may be able to salvage two and a half additional tons for a 310 engine. And it's hot, but it's not running barebones on the heatsinks. That's a respectable sustained output.

And it's nearly always had a 90 m minimum range. Had one in 2014, didn't stop it then.

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

So show me what a 2HPPC, 2xAC5 poptart would look like. It's also hot AF and has the 90m minimum range.

I'm fine with the Highlander making some sort of a return - are you saying that with gauss-ppc changes as they are now it would replace the MKII? Even with useful JJs? Show me that build, cuz I want to play it even without JJ buffs.

If JJs were good again I would run an XL325 Highlander (armor looks low but between quirks and the skill tree, its fine)

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

Likely not better than a MAL-2P, which already exists but is still deemed insufficient.

It's not an upgrade, it's just "a thing you can do".


.
It can have great hit-boxes, but that won't make it XL-viable because it will still be big and, even on the 9FC, still slow. 60 KPH on an XL 350 might be fast for an Assault, but it's still slow on the absolute speed scale and thus easy to pick apart. And it's going to be a Stalker with arms, in terms of hitboxes.

It will run an LFE 325, two Gauss, two LL, and three ERML at the fastest, and it gets only one extra heatsink with that. More practical, it will run an LFE 310 or 315 to get 12 or 13 DHS at the cost of running only marginally faster than a DWF. Or it has to drop firepower to a weaksauce 58 to keep the 325 and cool better.
It will run an LFE 325, two Gauss, two LL, and three ERML at the absolute fastest, and it gets only one extra heatsink with that



It may actually be quite effective against a laser MCII since it snap-fires and can hit at odd angles while the MCII is going to have to do only scrape damage with the lasers alone. But we really don't know, do we, since we don't have full power jets and those are game changers.

Though, now that you mention it, if you make Assault JJs solid then an MCII can pop-tart as well. Dual Gauss and an ERPPC punches you up to 67%, but if you've got 19x DHS to cool it then it's irrelevant. So, 90 tons with an XL350 gives you 63 kph, high mounts, armor, 40 PPFLD at 700 meters...

...yeah, no, that would actually be quite good. One of the most meta heavy 'Mechs at the moment is already a Summoner with just two ERPPC despite the fact that the laser vomit is so strong. The Night Gyr with 40 PPFLD also remains quite potent, but can't react to targets quickly like the Summoner can thanks to Gauss charge, lower running speed, and slightly lower mounts. The only reason it isn't taken is because big, slow targets (i.e. Assaults) are not the only thing it has to deal with. And I swear this is some deja vu, since I know this conversation has happened before...



Speed doesn't dictate the game the way it used to, we've got Supernovas that are the meta while being a mere 4 kph faster, Maulers that are meta while being slower, and we have no assaults that can actually jump except the MAD-IIC if it gets the full set and maybe the Victor (which doesn't have the room for 2x AC/5 + 2x HPPC).

I've had luck with HPPCs on Blackjacks, Warhammers, Riflemen, Catapults. Granted, sometimes it's only one HPPC with the second being a PPC, but you have to know what it is you want to do. I've run the WHM-6R with twin HPPC and twin AC/5 and only 60 rounds with just 11x DHS, and it's hot as balls, but even a bad game is still usually around 450 damage. Is 5 extra PPFLD worth totally scrubbing your sustained output? IMHO, not usually, but that's for you to decide.



Flat-footed side-poke != side-tarting. The JJs make all of the difference there. Flat-footed PPFLD was never that great, only the KDK-3 made it great because of the combination of high mounts, high armor, and high relative speed.

So I get all that. I do. I had literally forgotten that the MKII had JJs. I forget that a lot - because big JJs are ****.

While all those options are meta none of them dominates meta (aside from the Deathstrike and Clan gauss+lasers) like we've had in the past. There's always going to be meta. The fact that we've got Mauler and SNV meta builds has me happy. While the PPC poptart SMN is strong (and will probably always be strong) it's nothing like the poptarts used to be. It's not utterly dominant - it's just the best PPC poptart.

Comp meta is always going to favor longest range best accuracy least exposure options. The point isn't to eliminate that - it's to just bring it as much as reasonably possible into scale with other options. For years comp play was all just poptarting, and then all long range poke. That's not going to change much either.

What I want back is JJs for brawling. JJ brawling assaults (like the Highlander could be and the Victor was but will probably never be again) was a generally enjoyable option that worked well without being a big balance issue.

I also want more PPC options, now that synced with gauss isn't the same issue. Make light PPCs, snubs and even heavies a bit more viable. Probably the best possible way to balance laser meta; give PPCs a reason to take up one of your E slots.

I'm also okay with more than the Summoner and HBK IIC being a viable poptart - because while both are good and solid (even strong) builds they're not utterly dominant. Not like SPL Novas were where you'd just build your deck around the 2 mandatory Novas, or KDK 3s were. You see them consistently but not always every match drops 2-5.

JJ buffs wouldn't make the MKII not a top performer. Other than nerfing the holy living **** out of the MKII nothing is going to change that. It's always going to be a top choice. The question is would making JJs on big mechs not terrible make more assaults a bit more viable relative to the MK II or would it create a meta comparable to the worst ones?

Because, again, there's always best mechs. Always best builds. What can you change to make more viable without any of them being too dominant.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 September 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

If JJs were good again I would run an XL325 Highlander (armor looks low but between quirks and the skill tree, its fine)

It'd be good. You could play it and win matches. Would you dominate the MKII gauss-laser though? Make it irrelevant? The MAD IIC laservomit? Not just situationally on some maps, but as a given rule?

That's the question. I'm the first to say I'm not the authority but from an analytics perspective there's already 'best in this scenario' mechs filling every slot. If you put the IS Highlander or whatever other mech into some of those slots on some maps.... how is that a problem? It's only a problem if it's now every slot for that weight class on any map as a given rule.

So I'm asking because I couldn't say. Is that the concern? That it would be strong enough to wash everything else out of that spot?

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

It'd be good. You could play it and win matches. Would you dominate the MKII gauss-laser though? Make it irrelevant? The MAD IIC laservomit? Not just situationally on some maps, but as a given rule?

That's the question. I'm the first to say I'm not the authority but from an analytics perspective there's already 'best in this scenario' mechs filling every slot. If you put the IS Highlander or whatever other mech into some of those slots on some maps.... how is that a problem? It's only a problem if it's now every slot for that weight class on any map as a given rule.

So I'm asking because I couldn't say. Is that the concern? That it would be strong enough to wash everything else out of that spot?

No it wouldn't in my opinion.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

So I get all that. I do. I had literally forgotten that the MKII had JJs. I forget that a lot - because big JJs are ****.

While all those options are meta none of them dominates meta (aside from the Deathstrike and Clan gauss+lasers) like we've had in the past. There's always going to be meta. The fact that we've got Mauler and SNV meta builds has me happy. While the PPC poptart SMN is strong (and will probably always be strong) it's nothing like the poptarts used to be. It's not utterly dominant - it's just the best PPC poptart.

I would say the SMN poptart is way better than the old poptarts. The old pop-tarts were slow, hot, and had very poor hardpoint mounts; always waist-high. The only things the old pop-tarts had going for them were flat, shielded side profiles and having poptart exclusivity.

The SMN of today would dunk on those 'Mechs even in their prime. Even it didn't quite dunk on the HGN/DS, the NTG of today certainly would.

I would even go so far as saying that the MCII can't handle today's best poptarts. Gauss and lasers are slow and unwieldy; when you are fighting grounded targets that have to make significant exposure, it wins hands-down. But barely visible 'Mechs that peek for a split second and fade? It's not fast enough, and the vomit MCII don't have the same kind of power at-range. That's why ERLL boats are in every drop deck for non-brawl maps (and usually even on brawl maps), because massed scrape damage over time is the only counter except another pop-tart. The MCII can't do that like the SNV can, and the SNV is about equal in threat-level to those poptarts.

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Comp meta is always going to favor longest range best accuracy least exposure options. The point isn't to eliminate that - it's to just bring it as much as reasonably possible into scale with other options. For years comp play was all just poptarting, and then all long range poke. That's not going to change much either.

I don't know that I'd agree with that second part. All long range poke was when? After quirks happened in 2015, a lot of new options opened up, including brawl-push. That continued until the KDK-3 happened, then it was back to poptarts and it's still more or less back to poptarts, just not on Assaults because Assaults suck at poptarting.

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What I want back is JJs for brawling. JJ brawling assaults (like the Highlander could be and the Victor was but will probably never be again) was a generally enjoyable option that worked well without being a big balance issue.

Eh, even with the JJs, brawling isn't what it used to be. We can slam out 88 damage in a single shot, with 'Mechs that big and slow it's just a double tap and a kill and it's over. Being able to jump might be fun, but you will be disappointed with the total package. Unless you just want a jump brawl MCII, then you'll be ecstatic.

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I also want more PPC options, now that synced with gauss isn't the same issue. Make light PPCs, snubs and even heavies a bit more viable. Probably the best possible way to balance laser meta; give PPCs a reason to take up one of your E slots.

No argument here. But, given PGI's track record when it comes to allowing IS gear to be equivalent in value to a Clan 'Mech of similar weight, not gonna happen. Even the BJ-3 has been nerfed 3 times in the PPC department, and it was never dominant at that, just competent. But, it was used and talked about more than PGI liked so it got nerfed. Probably because they "needed" something to "counterbalance" the nerf to the HBK-IIC-A...not that we're seeing any less of the latter.

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I'm also okay with more than the Summoner and HBK IIC being a viable poptart - because while both are good and solid (even strong) builds they're not utterly dominant. Not like SPL Novas were where you'd just build your deck around the 2 mandatory Novas, or KDK 3s were. You see them consistently but not always every match drops 2-5.

I don't know if you've been watching MWOWC17, but there have been poptarting Summoners in almost every match, with HBK-IIC poptarts being almost as common. You can always expect to see ACH-E, SMN-F, SNV-C/1, and HBK-IIC represented in each game from the favored teams.

I don't think the MCII changes that composition much. Might see the SNVs swapped for them on Mining and possibly Canyon, but on Tourmaline I would still expect to see the SNV dominate.

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JJ buffs wouldn't make the MKII not a top performer. Other than nerfing the holy living **** out of the MKII nothing is going to change that. It's always going to be a top choice. The question is would making JJs on big mechs not terrible make more assaults a bit more viable relative to the MK II or would it create a meta comparable to the worst ones?

Because, again, there's always best mechs. Always best builds. What can you change to make more viable without any of them being too dominant.

There are ways to make the MCII not be the top performer that don't involve nerfing it. But, that would require PGI to inflate hard-points, adjust IS ghost heat thresholds upward, lower heat on certain other weapons and/or add quirks. Which they are not likely to do.

Buffing JJs would make some big 'Mechs not terrible, but it would also make the already great 'Mechs even better. The fundamental problem with the HGN is that it is IS. As long as "being IS" is a penalty unless mitigated by a giant helping of quirks, that's where things will stay.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 September 2017 - 12:57 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

I would say the SMN poptart is way better than the old poptarts. The old pop-tarts were slow, hot, and had very poor hardpoint mounts; always waist-high. The only things the old pop-tarts had going for them were flat, shielded side profiles and having poptart exclusivity.

The SMN of today would dunk on those 'Mechs even in their prime. Even it didn't quite dunk on the HGN/DS, the NTG of today certainly would.

I would even go so far as saying that the MCII can't handle today's best poptarts. Gauss and lasers are slow and unwieldy; when you are fighting grounded targets that have to make significant exposure, it wins hands-down. But barely visible 'Mechs that peek for a split second and fade? It's not fast enough, and the vomit MCII don't have the same kind of power at-range. That's why ERLL boats are in every drop deck for non-brawl maps (and usually even on brawl maps), because massed scrape damage over time is the only counter except another pop-tart. The MCII can't do that like the SNV can, and the SNV is about equal in threat-level to those poptarts.



I don't know that I'd agree with that second part. All long range poke was when? After quirks happened in 2015, a lot of new options opened up, including brawl-push. That continued until the KDK-3 happened, then it was back to poptarts and it's still more or less back to poptarts, just not on Assaults because Assaults suck at poptarting.



Eh, even with the JJs, brawling isn't what it used to be. We can slam out 88 damage in a single shot, with 'Mechs that big and slow it's just a double tap and a kill and it's over. Being able to jump might be fun, but you will be disappointed with the total package. Unless you just want a jump brawl MCII, then you'll be ecstatic.



No argument here. But, given PGI's track record when it comes to allowing IS gear to be equivalent in value to a Clan 'Mech of similar weight, not gonna happen. Even the BJ-3 has been nerfed 3 times in the PPC department, and it was never dominant at that, just competent. But, it was used and talked about more than PGI liked so it got nerfed. Probably because they "needed" something to "counterbalance" the nerf to the HBK-IIC-A...not that we're seeing any less of the latter.



I don't know if you've been watching MWOWC17, but there have been poptarting Summoners in almost every match, with HBK-IIC poptarts being almost as common. You can always expect to see ACH-E, SMN-F, SNV-C/1, and HBK-IIC represented in each game from the favored teams.

I don't think the MCII changes that composition much. Might see the SNVs swapped for them on Mining and possibly Canyon, but on Tourmaline I would still expect to see the SNV dominate.



There are ways to make the MCII not be the top performer that don't involve nerfing it. But, that would require PGI to inflate hard-points, adjust IS ghost heat thresholds upward, lower heat on certain other weapons and/or add quirks. Which they are not likely to do.

Buffing JJs would make some big 'Mechs not terrible, but it would also make the already great 'Mechs even better. The fundamental problem with the HGN is that it is IS. As long as "being IS" is a penalty unless mitigated by a giant helping of quirks, that's where things will stay.

Long range poke was all anyone did when ERLLs were king for a while, right after GH came out and the PPC velocity nerfs but before skill tree. Remember the ERLLs could technically do damage beyond their draw range?

I haven't gotten to watch the MWOWC2017 stuff yet but I am (nerdy as it sounds) looking forward to it. Like I said though - final rounds of the MWOWC are going to skew towards stuff like poptarting because everyone is going to play low risk (or at least that's a good gamble to make). MRBC was not nearly that same case. I wouldn't say it's that the SMN is totally dominant - it's that in this specific scenario with the top 0.01% of players that's going to be the strategy people are going to go with.

You're pointing out yourself though that there's still a decent variety of mechs in there, just all Clan. IS/Clan balance is another discussion I think I've made myself clear on (if it's not balanced then overall game balance is ****) but I think JJs would help with that.

I'm just talking (mostly) about assault JJs. Lights could use a bump too. Mediums and heavies are in a (not terrible) spot right now and I agree I'd be twitchy about adjusting them.

Also I'm not comparing the power of todays poptarts vs the old ones directly - I'm comparing their place in the meta. At one point it was all Phract 3D, Victors and Highlanders. Full stop. Those three mechs. They absolutely dominated the meta. While the poptarts we have now are stronger (cuz power creep for years) they are not totally dominant over all other mechs in all situations.

My new favorite for QP is a Marauder 5D, 2xMRM30s, 4MLs, 1MPL (cuz slots/tonnage) and a LFE300, 4 tons of ammo and 16DHS. It's an 86pt alpha and will puke up about 300 damage before I'm at heat cap, letting me poke out to shoot 3 times on 4 second intervals and then one more go of the missiles while I cool or pop a coolshot if I'm being pushed or pushing. Total ST health is 110 on each, 150 for the CT. If I took this mech back to pre-Clan release it would be so broken everyone would just quit.

Now? It's fun for a giggle; I still haven't bothered looking at quirks. I could probably min/max it some more but it's just a upper mediocre QP mech.

That's how ****** balance is now. Helping assault JJs a bit (dear god, what if just IS JJs got a buff? The world would end) isn't going to skew our already wonky balance. It'll just help assaults a bit.

And yes - yes, I want a JJ brawling MKII. I want to take SRMs and big ACs or pulse and go be viable up close and be mobile enough to last. I remember when we could do that and it was fun. I'm a bit tired of laser + gauss... but I'm not tired of winning, so I do it anyway.

[MadRover]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Long range poke was all anyone did when ERLLs were king for a while, right after GH came out and the PPC velocity nerfs but before skill tree. Remember the ERLLs could technically do damage beyond their draw range?

I haven't gotten to watch the MWOWC2017 stuff yet but I am (nerdy as it sounds) looking forward to it. Like I said though - final rounds of the MWOWC are going to skew towards stuff like poptarting because everyone is going to play low risk (or at least that's a good gamble to make). MRBC was not nearly that same case. I wouldn't say it's that the SMN is totally dominant - it's that in this specific scenario with the top 0.01% of players that's going to be the strategy people are going to go with.

You're pointing out yourself though that there's still a decent variety of mechs in there, just all Clan. IS/Clan balance is another discussion I think I've made myself clear on (if it's not balanced then overall game balance is ****) but I think JJs would help with that.

I'm just talking (mostly) about assault JJs. Lights could use a bump too. Mediums and heavies are in a (not terrible) spot right now and I agree I'd be twitchy about adjusting them.

Also I'm not comparing the power of todays poptarts vs the old ones directly - I'm comparing their place in the meta. At one point it was all Phract 3D, Victors and Highlanders. Full stop. Those three mechs. They absolutely dominated the meta. While the poptarts we have now are stronger (cuz power creep for years) they are not totally dominant over all other mechs in all situations.

My new favorite for QP is a Marauder 5D, 2xMRM30s, 4MLs, 1MPL (cuz slots/tonnage) and a LFE300, 4 tons of ammo and 16DHS. It's an 86pt alpha and will puke up about 300 damage before I'm at heat cap, letting me poke out to shoot 3 times on 4 second intervals and then one more go of the missiles while I cool or pop a coolshot if I'm being pushed or pushing. Total ST health is 110 on each, 150 for the CT. If I took this mech back to pre-Clan release it would be so broken everyone would just quit.

Now? It's fun for a giggle; I still haven't bothered looking at quirks. I could probably min/max it some more but it's just a upper mediocre QP mech.

That's how ****** balance is now. Helping assault JJs a bit (dear god, what if just IS JJs got a buff? The world would end) isn't going to skew our already wonky balance. It'll just help assaults a bit.

And yes - yes, I want a JJ brawling MKII. I want to take SRMs and big ACs or pulse and go be viable up close and be mobile enough to last. I remember when we could do that and it was fun. I'm a bit tired of laser + gauss... but I'm not tired of winning, so I do it anyway.

Just play for fun. You don't always have to go hardcore meta try hard mode on everything (not saying you do) but sometimes playing a few games outside of the meta will give you a breather. I myself just bought and built a laser vomit rifleman (my first one) and I'm thinking about taking my RAC5 MAD-3R out instead. Doesn't hurt if you can do well outside the meta, and especially in a very tier 1 game. Also, I do really reckless things with builds that are meta -cough EBJ cough- and just simply amuse myself. You'll be surprised how much you can actually get away with.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Long range poke was all anyone did when ERLLs were king for a while, right after GH came out and the PPC velocity nerfs but before skill tree. Remember the ERLLs could technically do damage beyond their draw range?

I haven't gotten to watch the MWOWC2017 stuff yet but I am (nerdy as it sounds) looking forward to it. Like I said though - final rounds of the MWOWC are going to skew towards stuff like poptarting because everyone is going to play low risk (or at least that's a good gamble to make). MRBC was not nearly that same case. I wouldn't say it's that the SMN is totally dominant - it's that in this specific scenario with the top 0.01% of players that's going to be the strategy people are going to go with.

You're pointing out yourself though that there's still a decent variety of mechs in there, just all Clan. IS/Clan balance is another discussion I think I've made myself clear on (if it's not balanced then overall game balance is ****) but I think JJs would help with that.

So, here's the variety:

Assaults are heavily favoring the SNV with ERLL. Probably more variety here than any other weight class, since I've also seen KDK-3, MAD-IIC, WHK-C, MAL-1P, MAL-MX90, and BLR-2C, but it's the SNV really winning the games in a big way. Even Oz, who are the only ones I've seen still choose the BLR and who used the BLR-2C in Drops 1 and 3, took SNV when they flipped sides for Drop 2. I'm not actually sure why they went with the BLR-2C at all instead of the longer-ranged 1G, the structure didn't appear factor into their win, and I'm not sure why they went with the BLR at all since they had them hanging out in the open and projecting threat for most of the match thus rendering the high mounts superfluous. But, I wasn't in the cockpit.

Heavies is Summoners and Night Gyrs all day every day, except one weird match where JagerXIII took...wait for it...a poptart TBR (duh) and was paired with an EBJ.

Mediums Heavily favoring the HBK-IIC-A with ERPPC, oddballs with Streaks and the occasional Assassin, Nova, or Storm Crow. These seem to be the most varied game-to-game, as they bounce between Light supplement and surrogate Heavy.

Lights are almost always the WLF-1 and ACH-E. Strangely, don't recall seeing any Javelins yet. Have seen a few Firestarters (something something what's old is new again, etc.).

Overall...it looks like the same chassis that have dominated the game for the last two years are still dominant, with some internal rearrangement. The ones that are new are actually new new (SNV), but would probably be pretty dominant two years ago as well. Most everything is running what you would be expecting them to run. I saw PHL use an ATM strat with their Night Gyrs that paid off big time, but I can't tell if that was because WDMC threw (and they f*cking did; nobody serious brings poke, votes HPG, and then charges into brawl not once, but twice) or if the NTGs using ATM were actually good. From a few of the games I've seen, I would almost swear there's a metagame going on where you try to get yourself into the loser's bracket to face easier opponents and then make a come-back at the end.

Best games to watch, so far, are RJF vs. EON and D5 vs. Oz. Those are excruciatingly close matches.

Quote

Also I'm not comparing the power of todays poptarts vs the old ones directly - I'm comparing their place in the meta. At one point it was all Phract 3D, Victors and Highlanders. Full stop. Those three mechs. They absolutely dominated the meta. While the poptarts we have now are stronger (cuz power creep for years) they are not totally dominant over all other mechs in all situations.

GH and range are the keys. Had LL and ERLL been 3x for ghost at the time, the STK might very well have eclipsed the HGN even without the jump jets, but having to fire 2+2+2 was just way too much time. 3+3 was a radical rearrangement. For range, the introduction of long-range, light weight weapons and no explosive XLs with the Clans changed the game, yeah. If it were still just IS, though, I'm not so sure those 'Mechs wouldn't still be quite potent with good JJs, possibly even still meta-defining. CTF probably eclipsed by the GHR, but really that's just more of the same.

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My new favorite for QP is a Marauder 5D, 2xMRM30s, 4MLs, 1MPL (cuz slots/tonnage) and a LFE300, 4 tons of ammo and 16DHS. It's an 86pt alpha and will puke up about 300 damage before I'm at heat cap, letting me poke out to shoot 3 times on 4 second intervals and then one more go of the missiles while I cool or pop a coolshot if I'm being pushed or pushing. Total ST health is 110 on each, 150 for the CT. If I took this mech back to pre-Clan release it would be so broken everyone would just quit.

Now? It's fun for a giggle; I still haven't bothered looking at quirks. I could probably min/max it some more but it's just a upper mediocre QP mech.

Dunno if I'd agree with that assessment, either. It has a giant alpha, but it spreads and has appreciable duration as well as flight time. And it's no faster than the pop-tarts of yore, it's the same speed. Likely outcome is they position the poptarts and you get poked to death on approach and then finished by Lights or UACs from the Assaults. The Marauder in general handles pop-tarts poorly at any speed due to the odd angles poptarts can take and long side torsos from the flank. Marauders are good for attack, attack, attack.

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That's how ****** balance is now. Helping assault JJs a bit (dear god, what if just IS JJs got a buff? The world would end) isn't going to skew our already wonky balance. It'll just help assaults a bit.

It will skew it, though, because Assaults are the centerpiece of every deck. The Lights carry matches, but what they do depends on what the Assaults are doing.

Quote

And yes - yes, I want a JJ brawling MKII. I want to take SRMs and big ACs or pulse and go be viable up close and be mobile enough to last. I remember when we could do that and it was fun. I'm a bit tired of laser + gauss... but I'm not tired of winning, so I do it anyway.

Well, the MCII is already viable up close and mobile enough to last, was my point. Letting it also bounce is just...ridiculous, honestly. It doesn't need that help and I don't want it to get it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

Heavies is Summoners and Night Gyrs all day every day, except one weird match where JagerXIII took...wait for it...a poptart TBR (duh) and was paired with an EBJ.

He wasn't supposed to be in all fairness so take that with a grain of salt. Our heavy and medium pilots just refuse to adapt to the meta sadly ;_;

That said, as far as Tourmaline goes, I have yet to see an ERLL SVN that really competes with the 6 UAC2 MX90, the main problem really comes down to positioning though.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 September 2017 - 02:59 PM.

[MadRover]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

He wasn't supposed to be in all fairness so take that with a grain of salt. Our heavy and medium pilots just refuse to adapt to the meta sadly ;_;

That said, as far as Tourmaline goes, I have yet to see an ERLL SVN that really competes with the 6 UAC2 MX90, the main problem really comes down to positioning though.

Oh they wanted to make things interesting. Unfortunately it sounds like that was the wrong place at the wrong time. Did y'all win at least? I don't have a whole lot of time to really watch when I can be playing myself.