128 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 21 September 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Let Gauss + PPC combo die and be forgotten.

The potato's creed.

[Jun Watarase]

The issue with the old PPC/Gauss/AC5 combos was that it was PPFLD and there was pretty much nothing you could do to stop it. All someone had to do was poke his head out for a bit and alpha your side torso. In theory, laser vomit lets you torso twist to spread damage, but the problem with this theory is that :

-Toso twisting only works if your weapons have less facetime than the lasers you are being shot with. It is impossible to toso twist with clan lasers vs IS lasers unless you choose not to return fire because your burn duration is longer.

-You have decent hitboxes, if your opponent aims at the top mounted guns on an EBJ for example, no amount of torso twisting will help you for the same reason that torso twisting doesnt stop someone from shooting the catapult's ears off. Same issue applies when shooting the sides of a stalker from the sides, its literally like hitting a barn, you can't miss.

-IS pulse lasers can go down to 0.5 or so burn duration, good luck torso twisting that

-Some mechs (all of which seem to be clan) have nerfed torso twist rates for no clear reason, making it very hard to torso twist to spread damage since you torso twist very slowly for your tonnage.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 September 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

The potato's creed.

MWO is more fun with less PPFLDs. That's all there is to it.

Jun Watarase, on 21 September 2017 - 09:51 PM, said:

-Toso twisting only works if your weapons have less facetime than the lasers you are being shot with. It is impossible to toso twist with clan lasers vs IS lasers unless you choose not to return fire because your burn duration is longer.

That's why Clanners should fight at their optimal range. CMPL, for example, has 50% longer reach than IS MPL. At 350 meters, CMPL will win the trade, easily.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 September 2017 - 10:18 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Luminis, on 21 September 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

So, tl;dr:
PGI, plz unlink Gauss / PPC at least for the IS to improve balance, kthxbye.

IS have some pretty dope selection for PPC and Gauss, you could do 2x Heavy Gauss + 2x Heavy PPC for some sick alpha damage. It's not going to be long range, but i would bet TTK would be unhealthy.

I'm glad that PPC and Gauss were linked, as honestly they were just too damn effective. Good Riddance.

[adamts01]

justcallme A S H, on 21 September 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

Balance at the upper level of play is where balance should be occurring.

Not at the LCD level.

You don't have to jump from comp play to fresh out of the academy you know. Balancing solely on competitions is just as crazy as balancing at tier 5. Comps have rules where the rest of the game doesn't, be it mech weight composition, chassis limitations or weapon limitations. Plus you're dealing with the top 1% of the players with unusually good aim, so of course more accurate weapons will work there but will be considerably less powerful than other options for the other 99% of players. It's just as silly to make the game fit them as it is to listen to "LRMs are OP" players.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

IS have some pretty dope selection for PPC and Gauss, you could do 2x Heavy Gauss + 2x Heavy PPC for some sick alpha damage. It's not going to be long range, but i would bet TTK would be unhealthy.

I'm glad that PPC and Gauss were linked, as honestly they were just too damn effective. Good Riddance.

56 tons and 22 slots on weapons? And requires a Standard?

Lolno. Even on a 100 ton 'Mech, all you get is a STD 250 with 3 tons of ammunition, already scraping away 54 points of armor. Horribad build is horribad, and 80 PPFLD at 180 meters that runs as hot as the sun is going to lose to brawl Mad Cats and Scorches (which, BTW, have already dropped the TTK that far at that range)

More feasibly, you could have run 2x Gauss and 2x HPPC on an ANH-1P, but the mounts suck for it and the 'Mech is so immobile that having PPFLD doesn't really buy it anything against a competent laser user. Can't get out of the way, it's full-expose or nothing, and for full expose I'd rather have dakka for consistent punishment. A poke 'Mech, the ANH is not. King Crab might work better, but it has mostly the same problems without even the armor to help it out.

The most likely thing you would have seen would be 2x HPPC + 1x Gauss or 2x Gauss + 1x HPPC with the occasional 2x Gauss + 1x or 2x ERPPC. In the face of current laser-vomit strength, none of those would have been considered good. Just adequate.

adamts01, on 21 September 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

You don't have to jump from comp play to fresh out of the academy you know. Balancing solely on competitions is just as crazy as balancing at tier 5. Comps have rules where the rest of the game doesn't, be it mech weight composition, chassis limitations or weapon limitations. Plus you're dealing with the top 1% of the players with unusually good aim, so of course more accurate weapons will work there but will be considerably less powerful than other options for the other 99% of players. It's just as silly to make the game fit them as it is to listen to "LRMs are OP" players.

The rules are there precisely because, when they aren't, you get MWOWC. The rules actually help to highlight second-best chassis, but everybody knows they are still just second-best.

And an accurate weapon being good for only the 1% becomes even more powerful for them if you make it easy to use for the other 99%, which is why you balance from the top.

[adamts01]

wrong quote.... match starting.... brb

Edited by adamts01, 21 September 2017 - 11:47 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

More feasibly, you could have run 2x Gauss and 2x HPPC on an ANH-1P, but the mounts suck for it and the 'Mech is so immobile that having PPFLD doesn't really buy it anything against a competent laser user. Can't get out of the way, it's full-expose or nothing, and for full expose I'd rather have dakka for consistent punishment. A poke 'Mech, the ANH is not. King Crab might work better, but it has mostly the same problems without even the armor to help it out.

The King Crab actually has high torso armor with regards to the Resistance Hero update, so i would say that your concern is unfounded, at least for something like the King-Crab.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

56 tons and 22 slots on weapons? And requires a Standard?

Lolno. Even on a 100 ton 'Mech, all you get is a STD 250 with 3 tons of ammunition, already scraping away 54 points of armor. Horribad build is horribad, and 80 PPFLD at 180 meters that runs as hot as the sun is going to lose to brawl Mad Cats and Scorches (which, BTW, have already dropped the TTK that far at that range)

But it doesn't need to brawl versus Mad-Cats and Scorches, it can also poke from a distance, or even corner -- yes a corner from 180m away is laughable, but it does happen even if not frequently, especially if your target is preoccupied. Even if you don't exactly do ALL of your damage, if you can end someone with one or two well placed shots, that's still a low TTK. It's not like Gauss-PPC or independent weapons flock to the front-lines.

It can also deal with other mechs, imagine an 80 PPFLD put at one spot, that's basically a red CT timber-wolf or a naked CT mad-dog, or a near-death HBK-IIC-A CT. If it's not CT, maybe it's a side-torso immediately destroyed, nullifying your effectiveness in half -- yes that's not kill, but it does affect how much you can contribute. And while it does full 25 damage at 180m, you can also deal damage outside of it, while it does not help with efficiency it does not mean it's necessarily ****** from a distance.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

The most likely thing you would have seen would be 2x HPPC + 1x Gauss or 2x Gauss + 1x HPPC with the occasional 2x Gauss + 1x or 2x ERPPC. In the face of current laser-vomit strength, none of those would have been considered good. Just adequate.

I would have went with 2x PPC + 2x Gauss, for the heat you know. If i were to pick heavy PPC, i'd get 3 LPPCs for that extra 1 ton instead -- yes that 3x 5 PPFLD versus 1x 15 PPLD, but hey the KGC have good energy weapon convergence and being bolts of 5 damage than a directed beam, i find it good enough. My go to long-range is actually 600m, i only venture out 810m with clan PPCs.

But my concern isn't exactly about the merit of builds, rather it's the merit of the weapon combination with regards to their TTK, not whether it's effective as a build at all. All i ever said is that the TTK would probably be bad. You know what else had bad TTK? Direstar.

Pin-point damage is kind of the culprit why TTK is low in MWO, and a weapon combinations that puts up to 50 damage to the CT isn't making it any better. Now we could do it with 80 with 2x HGR and 2x HPPC, while it won't be effective as a whole, it would be effective at putting a hole, one just need to maneuver it for the kill.

As for my concern? Supposed that these are just okay builds, wouldn't that still be affecting the TTK? After all you could put 80 damage at one spot every 5.75s (5.00s CD + 0.75s Charge of HGR), the HPPC also has 5s cooldown so the two would sync well together when you fire them at the same time. I get that it's just 180m, but it's not like it's impossible on small maps, impossible to catch enemies off guard, and nuke them a soon as you see them.

Or maybe just 50 from a distance, no questions asked other than if you missed or hit.

I mean it was unhealthy before link, what makes you think it's not going to be unhealthy when you unlink them again?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 September 2017 - 11:58 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

I miss the option in the poll for: keep the grouping but allow 3. Yes, that would also allow 3x cERPPC but I am sure it could be addressed.

Actually, I would suggest rather linking PPCs to the charge mechanics of Gauss instead of adding Gauss to the PPC GH group. It already restricts you from charging more than 2 gauss so it could be played with. PPCs are like auto-charged charged weapons anyways, so one could say that only a certain number of PPCs can be fired within 0.5s of a certain number of Gauss charges being kept/released. It would add flexibility and you wouldn't punish offenders by boiling them (which makes no sense).

Edited by Duke Nedo, 22 September 2017 - 12:21 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Toso twisting only works if your weapons have less facetime than the lasers you are being shot with. It is impossible to toso twist with clan lasers vs IS lasers unless you choose not to return fire because your burn duration is longer.

Torso twisting isnt the only way to spread out damage from lasers though. Just the act of moving forward and steering is often enough to make laser damage spread out. The only time you should ever get PPFLD from lasers is if you stand completely still. Dont do that.

Quote

I miss the option in the poll for: keep the grouping but allow 3.

I dont think gauss/gauss/ppc (or heavy ppc) should be allowed. Thats 40-45 PPFLD. the whole point of linking gauss/ppc in the same ghost heat group was to limit long-range PPFLD to 30 at most.

but I do think you should be able to fire 3 ppcs without ghost heat.

so I think standard gauss should be ghost heated at 2. but PPCs/light gauss should be ghost heated at 3.

if you use one or two standard gauss the most gauss/PPCs combined you can fire without ghost heat should be 2.

But if you dont use standard gauss you could have upto 3. that would also help make light gauss a little better since it would have the ghost heat limit of 3 when combined with PPCs, instead of 2.

in other words balance all gauss/PPC ghost heat combinations so theyre limited to ~30 PPFLD

Edited by Khobai, 22 September 2017 - 12:40 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

The King Crab actually has high torso armor with regards to the Resistance Hero update, so i would say that your concern is unfounded, at least for something like the King-Crab.

Right, forgot that was a thing. You can tell I don't really play them. That said, the CT does attract way more fire than even the ANH, so...eh.

Still has to clear the whole 'Mech to fire the Gauss with the Peeps.

Quote

But it doesn't need to brawl versus Mad-Cats and Scorches, it can also poke from a distance, or even corner -- yes a corner from 180m away is laughable, but it does happen even if not frequently, especially if your target is preoccupied. Even if you don't exactly do ALL of your damage, if you can end someone with one or two well placed shots, that's still a low TTK. It's not like Gauss-PPC or independent weapons flock to the front-lines.

Firing HGauss beyond 180 meters wastes a lot of potential and, when you only have 5 shots per ton as a base and only three tons, you really can't be wasting the shots.

The HPPC will also be poor at trading without any heatsinks. Two shots, then you either cool-shot or you wait a long time. Super easy to push on, especially since any 'Mech running a build like this will be fully committed to any expose action it takes as it is too slow to be anything else.

Worth pointing out that only the upcoming NSR-9P has the hardpoint placement to fully poke with such a build.

Anyway, my point is that there are already builds that can end a 'Mech in one or two well-placed shots. Some of them are not even gimmicks (Space Whale, Space Cat, Scorch, Splat Huntsman, SkillCrow, etc.). I don't think one that is saddled with nearly every drawback it can possibly be saddled with is worth worrying about.

Quote

It can also deal with other mechs, imagine an 80 PPFLD put at one spot, that's basically a red CT timber-wolf or a naked CT mad-dog, or a near-death HBK-IIC-A CT. If it's not CT, maybe it's a side-torso immediately destroyed, nullifying your effectiveness in half -- yes that's not kill, but it does affect how much you can contribute. And while it does full 25 damage at 180m, you can also deal damage outside of it, while it does not help with efficiency it does not mean it's necessarily ****** from a distance.

80 PPFLD at 180 m vs. 88 quasi-PPFLD at 180 m? cLB-20X spread is basically nothing at that range, so I'd choose that, especially because it's also fast enough to actually close on targets in a timely manner.

Yeah, I can poke something from a bit further away for 60 PPFLD and I guess that's neat, but at the cost of going 40 kph? Having 15 rounds?

Again, though, it's super hot. Fire once, maybe twice, then get rekt.

Quote

I would have went with 2x PPC + 2x Gauss, for the heat you know. If i were to pick heavy PPC, i'd get 3 LPPCs for that extra 1 ton instead -- yes that 3x 5 PPFLD versus 1x 15 PPLD, but hey the KGC have good energy weapon convergence and being bolts of 5 damage than a directed beam, i find it good enough. My go to long-range is actually 600m, i only venture out 810m with clan PPCs.

Yeah, 3x LPPC is an option if you've got the hardpoints and slots for it.

2x PPC + 2x Gauss would generally not have been worth it because it's 4 tons to get 5 extra damage and 5.5 extra heat but nothing else; greater speed from a bigger LFE would have been more valuable. The ERPPC are worth it for the better range and velocity sync-up, though.

The BNC-3E and NSR-9FC would have been the ideal 'Mechs to do this with.

Quote

But my concern isn't exactly about the merit of builds, rather it's the merit of the weapon combination with regards to their TTK, not whether it's effective as a build at all. All i ever said is that the TTK would probably be bad. You know what else had bad TTK? Direstar.

I don't really worry about gimmick builds like that. It can be annoying to get ganked by one, but really it's dragging down the enemy team more than it is hurting yours and that keeps it from becoming normal. How often do we see a Direstar? Nowhere near often enough to be concerned. I can't even remember the last time I saw one.

So yeah, TTK would be bad...for one guy in that one in a thousand match you actually encounter it.

I mean, do you worry about twin AC/20 + twin HPPC? It's only 10 damage less, but it's a thing we can also do that is also hot and gimmicky, but can at least run faster, fit a couple of extra heatsinks, and avoid managing charge up and recoil shake. Or how about 2x AC/10 + 2x HPPC, which is not actually gimmicky?

Quote

Pin-point damage is kind of the culprit why TTK is low in MWO, and a weapon combinations that puts up to 50 damage to the CT isn't making it any better. Now we could do it with 80 with 2x HGR and 2x HPPC, while it won't be effective as a whole, it would be effective at putting a hole, one just need to maneuver it for the kill.

50 from 500+ m wasn't healthy. 50 from a jumpy, fairly mobile (for the firepower) 75 tonner at 700+ m was definitely not healthy

The ability to do 50 PPFLD from a good distance is still in the game without using the gimmicky HGauss, BTW. AC/10 sync better with HPPC than Gauss does anyway.

Also, gimmicky build is gimmicky. You aren't saying anything that isn't true for less gimmicky builds that are already in the game dealing similar size and quality alphas. I just need to position a Scorch for the kill. I just need to position my Space Whale for the kill. Etc.

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As for my concern? Supposed that these are just okay builds, wouldn't that still be affecting the TTK? After all you could put 80 damage at one spot every 5.75s (5.00s CD + 0.75s Charge of HGR), the HPPC also has 5s cooldown so the two would sync well together when you fire them at the same time. I get that it's just 180m, but it's not like it's impossible on small maps, impossible to catch enemies off guard, and nuke them a soon as you see them.

You can do 80 once every 5.75 seconds TWICE, and then you are stuck at heat cap without extra DHS and without speed to get into cover. It's totally silly. And that doesn't change at any distance.

So, like the Direstar, it sucks for one guy in that once-in-a-blue-moon match you encounter it, but I'm not worried about it.

And if I want to nuke enemies, I can do it without being so gimmicky. Again, Space Whale and MCII.

Quote

Or maybe just 50 from a distance, no questions asked other than if you missed or hit.

I mean it was unhealthy before link, what makes you think it's not going to be unhealthy when you unlink them again?

For the record, I don't think the link should be undone completely. I think the link should be 3. At 3, you don't get the 50 PPFLD except from paired HGauss. You would get 40 PPFLD from the Clans and 45 from the IS, but the key is that the 45 from the IS is going to come from 'Mechs that aren't fast enough to really spread the big 80+ point alphas to an extent that the trade isn't basically even.

If it makes you feel better, keep HGauss at 2 and link it in so that can't be abused, I don't really care. As long as its stuck doing full damage at only 180 m with all the other limitations it has, it will always be a piddly weapon.

[Luminis]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

IS have some pretty dope selection for PPC and Gauss, you could do 2x Heavy Gauss + 2x Heavy PPC for some sick alpha damage. It's not going to be long range, but i would bet TTK would be unhealthy.

I consider that a non-issue. Playing slow brawlers is... Well, it's not exactly good. A brawler that can't close in isn't a threat. And by "slow" I mean "40 kph slow". Playing a brawler that basically has an optimal range of 90 - 270 meters (HPPC deadzone exists, y'know) with that sort of speed is going to be extra painful. There might be builds to worry about, but that ain't one.

In terms of TTK, other Assaults would kill you faster. Period.

And besides, there's no reason to not treat Heavy Gauss and regular Gauss rifles as separate entities when it comes to GH linking them to (H)PPCs.

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

Pin-point damage is kind of the culprit why TTK is low in MWO, and a weapon combinations that puts up to 50 damage to the CT isn't making it any better.

I'm using the Deathstrike as a yard stick again, sorry to everyone whom I'm annoying with my constant referencing of the 'Mech, but I do perceive it as the current, well, yard stick that Assaults basically measure up against...

And here's the thing that goes sorta unsaid; it's that with Gauss Vomit, 30 points of your damage is pinpoint. Question is how well you spread the remaining 50 to 64 damage that stem from Laser fire. You're likely ending up with a very similar amount of damage done to the CT plus a significant amount of splash damage to other components.

Also, did TTK really go up by any measurable degree following the GH link?

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

I mean it was unhealthy before link, what makes you think it's not going to be unhealthy when you unlink them again?

I most certainly never perceived a single IS 'Mech to be unhealthy when sporting the Gauss / PCC combo - which is why I put that option in the poll (and voted for it myself). What 'Mechs were using the PPFLD combo to great effect? Night Gyrs, Kodiaks, some Marauder IICs, maybe the Highlander IIC and the Boiler, not sure about those two. The Mad Cat Mk II would have used it insanely well, too. But what IS 'Mech was meta defining with a PPFLD loadout? Exactly. Zero. Not a single IS 'Mech would've qualified as "unhealthy". The Nightstar was the first potential 2x Gauss, 2x PPC platform on the horizon, from all I know.

Being an issue because Clans have the means to sling some hardcore PPFLD damage around shouldn't have prompted a nerf to the IS in the first place, in my opinion.

Edited by Luminis, 22 September 2017 - 01:26 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

The rules are there precisely because, when they aren't, you get MWOWC. The rules actually help to highlight second-best chassis, but everybody knows they are still just second-best.

And an accurate weapon being good for only the 1% becomes even more powerful for them if you make it easy to use for the other 99%, which is why you balance from the top.

If people still argue, after what you just said... I don't even...

[The6thMessenger]

Luminis, on 22 September 2017 - 01:25 AM, said:

I consider that a non-issue. Playing slow brawlers is... Well, it's not exactly good. A brawler that can't close in isn't a threat. And by "slow" I mean "40 kph slow". Playing a brawler that basically has an optimal range of 90 - 270 meters (HPPC deadzone exists, y'know) with that sort of speed is going to be extra painful. There might be builds to worry about, but that ain't one.

In terms of TTK, other Assaults would kill you faster. Period.

Well, my concern is the TTK, not the overall effectiveness of such a build.

Luminis, on 22 September 2017 - 01:25 AM, said:

Also, did TTK really go up by any measurable degree following the GH link?

I would argue that not from a distance than it was before.

Luminis, on 22 September 2017 - 01:25 AM, said:

Being an issue because Clans have the means to sling some hardcore PPFLD damage around shouldn't have prompted a nerf to the IS in the first place, in my opinion.

True, and in the light of that, i am considering 3 weapons before GH, this is to at least lessen the burden of 4 linked weapons. Yes you can also fire 3 PPCs before GH.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

Right, forgot that was a thing. You can tell I don't really play them. That said, the CT does attract way more fire than even the ANH, so...eh.

Still has to clear the whole 'Mech to fire the Gauss with the Peeps.

Yeah, those arms are really hindering. But 50 PPFLD damage is still pretty powerful all things considering, and would be a worthy trade. First time i used it, didn't do much damage but i was effective at killing. And one time on old Terra Therma Conquest, when i was hot the 2x Gauss were my saving grace.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

Firing HGauss beyond 180 meters wastes a lot of potential and, when you only have 5 shots per ton as a base and only three tons, you really can't be wasting the shots.

But you are still doing a LOT of damage. With say 120 damage to destroy a CT. It doesn't matter if you shell out two 80 shots, two 60 shots would still kill it at two shots, you'd still kill at 5.75s, with a shot done at the 0th second.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

The HPPC will also be poor at trading without any heatsinks. Two shots, then you either cool-shot or you wait a long time. Super easy to push on, especially since any 'Mech running a build like this will be fully committed to any expose action it takes as it is too slow to be anything else.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

Again, though, it's super hot. Fire once, maybe twice, then get rekt.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

You can do 80 once every 5.75 seconds TWICE, and then you are stuck at heat cap without extra DHS and without speed to get into cover. It's totally silly. And that doesn't change at any distance.

But isn't that the point of a low-heat weapon in the mix? So that you still have a pair of weapons to fire when you're really hot?Are you forgetting that you have two Gauss? Two low-heat weapons. That's still 50 damage once you're hot, don't you forget that, it's the point of Gauss.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

Anyway, my point is that there are already builds that can end a 'Mech in one or two well-placed shots. Some of them are not even gimmicks (Space Whale, Space Cat, Scorch, Splat Huntsman, SkillCrow, etc.). I don't think one that is saddled with nearly every drawback it can possibly be saddled with is worth worrying about.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

80 PPFLD at 180 m vs. 88 quasi-PPFLD at 180 m? cLB-20X spread is basically nothing at that range, so I'd choose that, especially because it's also fast enough to actually close on targets in a timely manner.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

And if I want to nuke enemies, I can do it without being so gimmicky. Again, Space Whale and MCII.

But considering that they are missiles, versus a combination Gauss PPC or HGauss and HPPCs, both of which could do immense alpha beyond 270m, and not spread, maybe they actually reserve the right for their alpha.

As for the Space-Whale -- yeah, i get that full 6x CERML + 2x CLPL + 2x Gauss is literally 98 alpha. But that 68 damage isn't PPFLD, it's laser -- one that's not even close under 0.8s of supposedly "Defacto PPFLD".

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

Yeah, I can poke something from a bit further away for 60 PPFLD and I guess that's neat, but at the cost of going 40 kph? Having 15 rounds?

It is low TTK. It's trollish, and suicidal. But so is Direstar.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

Yeah, 3x LPPC is an option if you've got the hardpoints and slots for it.

King Crab 0000 and 000B have, highmounted, and has good convergence.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

2x PPC + 2x Gauss would generally not have been worth it because it's 4 tons to get 5 extra damage and 5.5 extra heat but nothing else; greater speed from a bigger LFE would have been more valuable. The ERPPC are worth it for the better range and velocity sync-up, though.

Well, full interest of disclosure, i don't do 2x Gauss + 2x PPC on the king crab anymore, not after the linking. I haven't tested other setups, but i actually used to go XL on the king crab and i found it to work, at least when i position well. Yes i get ****** by a light on the rear, but hey it works.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

So, like the Direstar, it sucks for one guy in that once-in-a-blue-moon match you encounter it, but I'm not worried about it.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

I don't really worry about gimmick builds like that. It can be annoying to get ganked by one, but really it's dragging down the enemy team more than it is hurting yours and that keeps it from becoming normal. How often do we see a Direstar? Nowhere near often enough to be concerned. I can't even remember the last time I saw one.

Considering that it constitutes to 100 tons of suicidal maniac, sorry but i have to be concerned be it it's my team or my own. It's disruptive to good play, and would equate putting a ***** over a chessboard and say "i win" -- you know why a *****? Because it's a **** move.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

So yeah, TTK would be bad...for one guy in that one in a thousand match you actually encounter it.

Probably the guy riding the meta, there's a reason why it was meta before.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

I mean, do you worry about twin AC/20 + twin HPPC? It's only 10 damage less, but it's a thing we can also do that is also hot and gimmicky, but can at least run faster, fit a couple of extra heatsinks, and avoid managing charge up and recoil shake. Or how about 2x AC/10 + 2x HPPC, which is not actually gimmicky?

Actually i find that gimmicky. It's too hot, it has immense alpha, and yes it would have low TTK, also pretty bad build and suicidal. Two AC20 alone generates a considerable heat when fired together, compare that to two HGR that doesn't create much heat and would end up sustainable.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

If it makes you feel better, keep HGauss at 2 and link it in so that can't be abused, I don't really care. As long as its stuck doing full damage at only 180 m with all the other limitations it has, it will always be a piddly weapon.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

5The ability to do 50 PPFLD from a good distance is still in the game without using the gimmicky HGauss, BTW. AC/10 sync better with HPPC than Gauss does anyway.

Well, now that you did raised the point of splat builds, i have to concede that they are kind of simmilar, the missiles just becomes ****** at the distance where the HGauss could perform. And as for the 2x AC10 + 2x HPPC, Yes i concede that's 50 PPFLD, but as with the gauss PPC mix, it comes to the territory that GRs are relatively cool and have good projectile speeds.

Don't take this the wrong way, i still frown upon them, and i acknowledge that 50 PPFLD in the game. But In the light of our discussion would concede that perhaps Gauss PPC has something more than just PPFLD.

Perhaps just link 3 of gauss and ppcs all at once? That means you can still fire two gauss and one PPC without penalty, or two PPC with one gauss without penalty, but it does lessen the penalty with the use of 2x Gauss + 2x PPC of any combination.

Or at least maybe to the IS only.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 September 2017 - 07:10 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

Just use a more permanent solution to all these problems and use energy/power draw.

[The6thMessenger]

Savage Wolf, on 22 September 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

Just use a more permanent solution to all these problems and use energy/power draw.

Sure, but not the abomination PGI proposed.

[Savage Wolf]

The6thMessenger, on 22 September 2017 - 02:07 AM, said:

Sure, but not the abomination PGI proposed.

Sure. But that's the strength of Energy/Power draw. It can be so easily tweaked and adjusted and so much easier to balance across the board.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Revis Volek, on 21 September 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

CASE does nothing for Gauss Ammo
Gauss Ammo doesnt explode only the weapon does but i agree free case is something a lot of peeps over look.

Never said it was about ammo. Gauss weapon explode and it's actually more dangerous than ammo explosion that rarely ever happens.

justcallme A S H, on 21 September 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

And right there is the problem with the PSR system.
If you think Gauss ammo explodes...

And this right there is the problem with reading comprehension.

Where did I say that gauss ammo explodes? I said "CASE bonus taking away most disadvantages gauss have". Gauss WEAPON explodes. This forces you to use CASE if you not want to loose up to 2 components when your gun goes boom. That's another 0,5 tons per IS gauss for it to fully match clan gauss in properties. Funnily enough, IS mechs can't even use CASE in arms, so gauss in arm+xl -> you will often die from getting your arm armor stripped (Verified that the painful way). This is another problem with IS/Clan balance people rarely admit exists.

[meteorol]

well, lets just start with what the link didn't do.

• it didn't increase TTK. at all. 2x Gauss still Drops 30 FLPP damage to one location, and missing 20 FLPPD got substituded by 50-70 laser damage. Even with the possibility to twist laser damage, a 90dmg gaussvomit alpha kills every bit as fast as a 50pt FLPPD
  
• It didn't lead to PPCs/ER-PPCs seeing more usage than before. The mechs heavily utilizing ER-PPCs are the HBK/SMN and to a certain extent the SNV (WHK is a thing of the past). A Marauder (or MC2) or KDK-3 combining them with UACs here and there. Beyond that? Mostly wasteland.
  
• Contrary to what some people argued, it didn't lead to people using a single gauss with a single ppc (topkek).

What it did though (as predicted)

• pretty much removed a viable style of playing from the field
  
• reduce build diversity
  
• pushing the meta into laservomit/gaussvomit full force

Basically, it did what everyone right in his mind expected.

[justcallme A S H]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 22 September 2017 - 02:30 AM, said:

Never said it was about ammo. Gauss weapon explode and it's actually more dangerous than ammo explosion that rarely ever happens.


And this right there is the problem with reading comprehension.

Where did I say that gauss ammo explodes? I said "CASE bonus taking away most disadvantages gauss have". Gauss WEAPON explodes. This forces you to use CASE if you not want to loose up to 2 components when your gun goes boom. That's another 0,5 tons per IS gauss for it to fully match clan gauss in properties. Funnily enough, IS mechs can't even use CASE in arms, so gauss in arm+xl -> you will often die from getting your arm armor stripped (Verified that the painful way). This is another problem with IS/Clan balance people rarely admit exists.

If Gauss in arm explodes, it does not take off torso... I've never died to a XL death in my Jager from the Gauss going pop.

The issue in what you say is the IS XL - The biggest imbalance in MWO

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 September 2017 - 03:20 AM.