128 replies to this topic

[Luminis]

Rampage, on 21 September 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

They simply were not the best tool to kill Mechs quickly and efficiently.

Whether that's true or not, I am quite certain they'd be now, regardless of whether Gauss / PPC is a thing or not...

[Revis Volek]

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

theyre not really pinpoint when they hit multiple locations.

theyre only pinpoint when all the damage goes into one location

its similar to saying an LBX is a pinpoint weapon. LBX will always fire with its spread centered on the reticle. but the damage doesnt all hit the same location. so LBX isnt pinpoint either. laser beam duration is similar to the LBX spread mechanic in that regard.

they dont hit multiple locations


you do.


The real irony is that cERPPC 's DO in fact hit more then one locations but i guess you forgot about that.



cERPPC Gauss is 100% GUARANTEED to spread MORE dmg then lasers. Laser have the capability to be much worse though if you are a bad pilot.

Edited by Revis Volek, 21 September 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Laser vomit gets deadlier the slower and bulkier your mech is. For example, on a good day, I could shield against the alpha of the meta Deathstrike twice in a Griffin and only loose shield arms. Same two alphas can often kill me when I'm in a LFE Banshee. And Banshee is agile for an assault.

EDIT:
The problem here is not gauss per se, although clan gauss is a bit too great of a weapon, but that's due to weight, gauss charge skills and clan CASE bonus taking away most disadvantages gauss have if your mech is big enough.

The problem here is heavy large lasers. Duration is not as big of a problem when your target moves like a slug (most assaults, some heavies, 1-2 meds) and has biiig hitboxes (most assaults, some heavies, even some meds). Heat is not a problem when you're on a clan fatty that can fit lots of clan heatsinks AND you can couple those lasers with gauss.

IMHO, the biggest balancing mistake PGI made for the last year, was buffing the clan heatsinks back to be equal to IS heatsinks despite their far superior boatability. That was a great balancing mechanics, because it hurt bigger mechs the most, while it is the big clan mechs, especially assaults with decent geometry and hardpoints that really throw things out of balance. Endo, Ferro, XL engine, better heatsinks, lighter weapons - all clan advantages get more and more significant with every 5 ton more a mech has, while clan disadvantages (weapon duration) gets less significant. This is why we never had an OP clan mech below 75 tons, save for the SCR and ACH (both having incredibly defensive hitboxes coupled with clan xl) while every second clan assaults that comes out ends up overperforming (workable hardpoints, acceptable hitboxes - boom, a tier 1 mech).

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 21 September 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 21 September 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Laser vomit gets deadlier the slower and bulkier your mech is. For example, on a good day, I could shield against the alpha of the meta Deathstrike twice in a Griffin and only loose shield arms. Same two alphas can often kill me when I'm in a LFE Banshee. And Banshee is agile for an assault.

EDIT:
The problem here is not gauss per se, although clan gauss is a bit too great of a weapon, but that's due to weight, gauss charge skills and clan CASE bonus taking away most disadvantages gauss have if your mech is big enough.

The problem here is heavy large lasers. Duration is not as big of a problem when your target moves like a slug (most assaults, some heavies, 1-2 meds) and has biiig hitboxes (most assaults, some heavies, even some meds). Heat is not a problem when you're on a clan fatty that can fit lots of clan heatsinks AND you can couple those lasers with gauss.

IMHO, the biggest balancing mistake PGI made for the last year, was buffing the clan heatsinks back to be equal to IS heatsinks despite their far superior boatability. That was a great balancing mechanics, because it hurt bigger mechs the most, while it is the big clan mechs, especially assaults with decent geometry and hardpoints that really throw things out of balance. Endo, Ferro, XL engine, better heatsinks, lighter weapons - all clan advantages get more and more significant with every 5 ton more a mech has, while clan disadvantages (weapon duration) gets less significant. This is why we never had an OP clan mech below 75 tons, save for the SCR and ACH (both having incredibly defensive hitboxes coupled with clan xl) while every second clan assaults that comes out ends up overperforming (workable hardpoints, acceptable hitboxes - boom, a tier 1 mech).

CASE does nothing for Gauss Ammo


Gauss Ammo doesnt explode only the weapon does but i agree free case is something a lot of peeps over look.

[Nightbird]

Where is the option to LINK GAUSS AND LAZORS? You know that is the only option PGI is considering right?

[Gas Guzzler]

NlGHTBlRD, on 21 September 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Where is the option to LINK GAUSS AND LAZORS? You know that is the only option PGI is considering right?

Marauder IIC becomes the winner then. Yippee!!! Can't let the Dire have a role now can we.

[Carl Vickers]

This kind of balancing using ghost heat crap making less build diversity is why you dont listen to potato whiners who cant aim and cant hit the side of a barn door at 200 meters.

GG PGI, balance for potato moar.

[Kuaron]

PGI should replace GH by something that actually makes sense.
(Which does not include energy draw the way it was presented but several tweaks and alternatives in the test forum back then.)

Until then I don't see an improvement in splitting the Gauss and PPC groups again.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah the semantics of it begins to break down once you start getting into guns that manage to somehow both potentially be ppfld and at the same time not be ppfld...

People cite fun often for an argument against a nerf, but you have to look at it from both ends, fun for you sure, you have stated that, there is no doubt you are having fun, but is everyone that comes into contact with you or is slotted beside you as a teammate, also having fun?

From the guy being hits perspective, in this game in particular, it is "more fun" when you stand a chance to mitigate incoming damage by utilising twisting/dodging, weapons that make that whole aspect of the game literally impossible, by virtue of travelling too fast, or having that instant hit, instant damage dealt effect, are problematic.

Both gauss and PPC by their nature in this game, tend to tick both of those slots, plus have historically had pretty incredible ranges. So while I would have gone a different route myself, I don't mind the splitting up of their usage through ghost heat.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 21 September 2017 - 05:39 PM.

[MischiefSC]

PPFLD was always the best option. The only reason laservomit showed up is because with how strong CSPLs were and now HLLs. Arguably CMPLs.

Gauss + PPC GH link doesn't remove 'build diversity' any more than GH killing the 4 PPC stalker killed build diversity. The effectiveness of gauss + PPC is why we had issues with poptarting, it's why we got the JJ nerf. It's why we can't have good PPCs and why Gauss needs a charge-up.

So the real question is, now that gauss-PPC is decoupled can we get PPCs that are individually worth taking since you can't sync them with 0 heat gauss to offset their only real drawback?

It was a good choice - so long as balance changes to PPCs make them viable vs lasers for the same slots. The result of this change should be my having a valid reason to consider taking a PPC over a LPL for the IS.

If there was enough good reason to take and use AC10s/UAC10s or, dear god pardon the raw insanity of idea, LB10X instead of a gauss to use with those energy hardpoints? Because if the mech has both ballistic and energy hardpoints you're going to put either PPCs or lasers on the E hardpoints and 'vomit' something. Given that PPCs are PPFLD, there's good logic to limit their use along with other PPFLD.

Issue isn't gauss + PPC GH link. It's that the ease of taking a 64-80 damage laservomit build makes a 30 or even 40pt PPFLD loadout just look meh.

Laser + Gauss requires you to stay in the open for over 1 second, making you more vulnerable to return fire. Since someone is going to use something with Gauss, it's better to see 0 heat Gauss used with lasers. The real question is how do you now make PPCs worthwhile and how do you make other ballistics useful with PPCs and lasers. THAT will increase diversity in a good way.

Gauss + PPC and the power of high damage PPFLD is what bought us a ton of the nerfs we've got. The problem is that it only just now showed up. Now we need to change PPCs to make them more useful and other ballistics to do the same.

Edited by MischiefSC, 21 September 2017 - 07:06 PM.

[Revis Volek]

MischiefSC, on 21 September 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

PPFLD was always the best option. The only reason laservomit showed up is because with how strong CSPLs were and now HLLs. Arguably CMPLs.

Gauss + PPC GH link doesn't remove 'build diversity' any more than GH killing the 4 PPC stalker killed build diversity. The effectiveness of gauss + PPC is why we had issues with poptarting, it's why we got the JJ nerf. It's why we can't have good PPCs and why Gauss needs a charge-up.

So the real question is, now that gauss-PPC is decoupled can we get PPCs that are individually worth taking since you can't sync them with 0 heat gauss to offset their only real drawback?

It was a good choice - so long as balance changes to PPCs make them viable vs lasers for the same slots. The result of this change should be my having a valid reason to consider taking a PPC over a LPL for the IS.

If there was enough good reason to take and use AC10s/UAC10s or, dear god pardon the raw insanity of idea, LB10X instead of a gauss to use with those energy hardpoints? Because if the mech has both ballistic and energy hardpoints you're going to put either PPCs or lasers on the E hardpoints and 'vomit' something. Given that PPCs are PPFLD, there's good logic to limit their use along with other PPFLD.

Issue isn't gauss + PPC GH link. It's that the ease of taking a 64-80 damage laservomit build makes a 30 or even 40pt PPFLD loadout just look meh.

Laser + Gauss requires you to stay in the open for over 1 second, making you more vulnerable to return fire. Since someone is going to use something with Gauss, it's better to see 0 heat Gauss used with lasers. The real question is how do you now make PPCs worthwhile and how do you make other ballistics useful with PPCs and lasers. THAT will increase diversity in a good way.

Gauss + PPC and the power of high damage PPFLD is what bought us a ton of the nerfs we've got. The problem is that it only just now showed up. Now we need to change PPCs to make them more useful and other ballistics to do the same.

POWER CREEEEP!

[justcallme A S H]

Revis Volek, on 21 September 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Im pretty sure a lot of us told you this wasnt going to help, in fact it was going to get worse with laser vomit being to strongk again.


NO one listens and now you all get to eat crow. Most of us saw this coming a mile away, PGI was the only one that thought it was a good idea to kill a build and diversity in a game they claim we can "play how we want"



Gauss ppc never hurt anyone other then laser vomit mechs which they are pretty much the counter too. NOw it vomit or go home. Nice diversity PGI so glad for skill forest.

Yeah just look at all the DAKKA in the MWOOC2017

DAKKA cERPPC / Laser Vom central. What a surprise, not.

Unless you do some weird ATM strat and somehow win because, reasons.

[Y E O N N E]

justcallme A S H, on 21 September 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

Unless you do some weird ATM strat and somehow win because, reasons.

I mean, it's not like there's even a single AMS there. Weirder things have happened even in Div A MRBC.

[justcallme A S H]

AMS = OP. Plz Nerf.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

I mean, it's not like there's even a single AMS there. Weirder things have happened even in Div A MRBC.

i still feel like an ATM27 Cougar with a light Tag could wreak havoc in MRBC drop 1...

[Sunstruck]

The problem is that there are a lot of new assult mechs that have excessive ballistic and energy hardpoints so that things like double heavy gauss, heavy ppc are avaliable. Something had to be done to reign it in. Even though the nerf kind of smelled of clan meta nerf, the new IS tech made it necessary on the IS side too.

[MadRover]

justcallme A S H, on 21 September 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

Yeah just look at all the DAKKA in the MWOOC2017

DAKKA cERPPC / Laser Vom central. What a surprise, not.

Unless you do some weird ATM strat and somehow win because, reasons.

Doing balance changes based on tournys is never a good idea no matter how well you attempt to sugar coat it. It just doesn't work. You're talking about people who play this game professionally rather than those who play the game to have fun. Two very different parameters you're working with.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 September 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

i still feel like an ATM27 Cougar with a light Tag could wreak havoc in MRBC drop 1...

Depending on the map, an ATM build could wreak havoc on almost any drop. Can you imagine Bog with an ATM boat lurking around one of those bends and then hopping up to deliver that volley from high-ground? If you don't spot it and immediately deal with it, it will savage your team if a brawl gets locked in.

That 3x damage under 300 meters with torso homing is not a joke.

[justcallme A S H]

MadRover, on 21 September 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Doing balance changes based on tournys is never a good idea no matter how well you attempt to sugar coat it. It just doesn't work. You're talking about people who play this game professionally rather than those who play the game to have fun. Two very different parameters you're working with.

Balance at the upper level of play is where balance should be occurring.

Not at the LCD level.

Prof RJ Gumby, on 21 September 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

EDIT:
The problem here is not gauss per se, although clan gauss is a bit too great of a weapon, but that's due to weight, gauss charge skills and clan CASE bonus taking away most disadvantages gauss have if your mech is big enough.

And right there is the problem with the PSR system.

If you think Gauss ammo explodes...

[El Bandito]

Let Gauss + PPC combo die and be forgotten.