64 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

you cant really brawl with the thing, i find its better with ranged engagements.

[Shifty McSwift]

Your title sounds like a quote from a MechWarrior nature documentary...

"The fragility of the Ebon Jaguar is matched only by its ferocity."
**Shows clip of ebon jag alpha striking a gazelle**

[Jackal Noble]

I will say this, a lot of people felt that their mechs had been pretty jilted with the introduction of the Skill Tree, and to some measure they are absolutely correct; some mechs performance was quite altered, a lot to do with the engine desync too tho.
Not for the Ebon tho - It and the Hellbringer were basically the only two mechs without quirks for the better part of their existence in game. The skill-tree brought the EBJ a measure of the toughness I had always wanted the chassis to have. Granted it's not the same as having armor quirks that get magnified with the Skilltree but at least it's something.
Add in the more recently added set of 8 quriks the EBJ and Hellbringer received and we're getting somewhere ( good enough ones where you can stick with the stock pods layout and make a decent enough build; heck the EBJ-B has 7 energy hardpoints and gets 10% accel/decel) <- sure nothing to write home about, but it definitely is when you've been accustomed to having nil. Or the EBJ-A with the UAC20 jam quirks.

It's still every bit of a glass cannon, but with enough armor and structure distribution points, it can at least take a bump on the nose and not instantly core out.

[The Lighthouse]

Jun Watarase, on 26 September 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

EBJ is a classic example of bad hitboxes + no durability quirks. It's only saving grace is that it has the tonnage/hardpoints for laser vomit. When you are doing massive alphas at medium-long range, bad hitboxes is less of an issue. In all other cases, the bad hitboxes allow someone to single out a side torso or the CT easily. The CT can even be hit from the sides, so torso twisting doesn't work if your opponent aims for the nose.

On the other hand, look at a mech like the grasshopper : Humanoid profile, shield arms, high torso mounts, durability quirks, cockpit located ontop of the mech instead of center mass. One of the most common mechs in FP for a reason. But it still gets durability quirks even though it has shield arms + better hitboxes.

In any 1v1 vs a warhammer or grasshopper the EBJ loses because torso twisting doesnt work in an EBJ, your opponent will just aim for the nose or take out your side torso while you are forced to shoot through his shield arms. And to top it off he can start torso twisting while you are mid laser burn because his lasers have a shorter duration.

The humanoid profile is so important that literally every popular IS mech in FP has one. Every IS mech with a non-humanoid profile is instantly considered junk. If the Hellbringer had the same pod space that the EBJ did, nobody would touch the EBJ with a 10 foot long pole either. The ability to use your arms to block shots is so important that it can mean the difference between you surviving a huge alpha while your opponent hits his heat threshold blowing off a useless arm or losing a side torso. In a mech like the catapult (or EBJ), you can torso twist all you want, your opponent does not care and will just take out your side torso.

Funny story, I was in a match today where a SRM cyclops was pushing. And while doing the standard torso twist and reverse to get away from him, he was holding his fire and waiting for me to turn towards him again so he could shoot me in the front. Then he realised that he could just hit my CT by aiming at the nose from the side and the rest was history. If I was in a mech with a humanoid profile, he would be forced to chew through my arm first then my side torso, which would take at least two alphas. That would have bought my team an extra 6+ seconds to focus fire him down, which makes all the difference.

And before someone gets started on the ridge humping argument, then by that logic every IS mech good at ridge humping should have their durability quirks removed. After all, they can just ridge hump right? I mean they do have better hitboxes + shield arms, it's not like they need more advantages on top.

Frankly, the EBJ hitboxes are as bad as the Dragon's, just that the Dragon has a square nose and the EBJ has a round nose. The Dragon gets massive durability quirks and still isnt popular. Sure, the EBJ can run laser vomit, but thats literally its only saving grace. Pretty much every EBJ build used by a clan unit is laser vomit for a reason.

The best thing you can do with an EBJ ballistic wise is probably to use a UAC 20 or 10 with it along with as many lasers as you can fit, but you still lose to anyone who uses cover to negate your range advantage because again, shield arms.

Your EBJ still moves far faster than most of GHR builds, brings far higher alpha damage while has better sustained dps at the same time.

And god help GHR pilot if his mech is equipped with XL engine, which pretty much neutralize defensive difference. Not to mention that thanks to grand rescaling, GHR is actually as big as Atlas in terms of height and frontal profile. It is not a durable mech at all.

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

Not sure y some people are trying to sell high hardpoints and hot alpha builds to someone who is struggling with the basics of the mech.

The ebj is no real trooper mech, something you would expect at 65 tons dishing out and taking somewhat in return.

@op
The mech has not optimal hitboxes and the high mounts are death traps, but its still workable.
Actual alot of people like the mech and have great success with it.

Try to go for symetric builds/or builds that forefeit the high mounts until you got better with the chassis.
(Like this, this, or this one (last one is somewhat lacking damageoutput, if you are confident with it you change 2dhs for 2 more erml)6mpl(+really big tcomp) or 8 mpl builds are although alot of fun- or try an 6mpl2lpl build .
Simply experiment with lasers of all kinds it is somewhat tailormade for this)

Try to stay near the flanks and near some hardcover, poke, shoot you load and then "waddle" back into cover. Move your torso left and right while moving backwards and use the the directional arrows to get more momentum and be somewhat unpredictable with you tanking. After a while you ll get pretty good at it and you ll be able spread the damage very well.
Its not that complicated, simply watch for your nose. Experiment with the high mounts as it pleases you.

Hope you ll become an ebj enthusiast, its a lovely creature that gets the job done.

[Jackal Noble]

The Lighthouse, on 26 September 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Your EBJ still moves far faster than most of GHR builds, brings far higher alpha damage while has better sustained dps at the same time.

And god help GHR pilot if his mech is equipped with XL engine, which pretty much neutralize defensive difference. Not to mention that thanks to grand rescaling, GHR is actually as big as Atlas in terms of height and frontal profile. It is not a durable mech at all.

Umm let's not try to go down this road, hmmmk? Because the moment you open the gates for he said she said, before you know it we will be comparing commando durability to Annihilator yaw.
Plus it's a real cheap way to enter the conversation.
But but your Large pulse has a .67 burn time.
But but you have HPPCs.
But but you have RACs and MRMs
See? in no time, the thread, which is SUPPOSED to be about the Ebon Jaguar begins the downward spiral into fecal matter. Please don't do that.
This mech (EBJ) is my baby. Go spew atypical IS whinage on any number of other threads regarding, but please abstain from bringing that crap (and it is crap) here.

That's a lot of the issue with ongoing balance and a monetary system that relies on skewing balance to and fro in order to draw customers to the mech of the month. People get this weird convenient tunnel vision and then they get all wonky with the overall picture. I own the Grasshopper Mjolnir, and still haven't clicked with the thing. I'm well aware that it can run Energy vomit pretty good, despite being the ballistic oriented variant. It is pretty well known that the GRH was one of the mechs that got swept up in the ST balance change. Before that all happened, last year the Grasshopper was pretty disgusting.

Obligatory - it's got armor bonus that stacks with ST while EBJ has none
- has Jump jets.
- In order to utilize any of the high mounts for laser (now 3 hardpoints available) ballistic (2) or missile (2), you basically condemn whatever side torso that mount is on to death, due to the weapon hitbox floating above it's head which can be zeroed in on from all sides. Pretty much guaranteed, and fact of life - doesn't stop me from using it when I want to run whatever build, but it's about 100% of the time, that will be the first ST to blow off by a large margin.

Edited by JackalBeast, 26 September 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[Damnedtroll]

Always found it CT prone, you need to diminish facetime and use fast alpha strike and hide like you know... something that began with C and it's not cookie.

Using my EBJ with an array of medpulse(5 + 2lmg) and 2 high mounted erlarge to snipe. After they are softened with erlarge, move in head down and alpha strike them precisely on their weak spot and you just cut them in pieces.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 26 September 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Ebon Jag may be fragile, but damn is it a fun, diverse mech. I still enjoy it with 3 uac5s an ermls. But then on a whim I'll do 8mpl or even an erppc build, even atms. I just love the damn thing. Hell now I need to consider buying another one.

[N0ni]

One thing of note when attempting to spread damage:

Unlike just about every other mech, do not just twist to the side and absolutely do not face the ground while doing so. It's much better to face up to the sky while twisting. It might feel like a weird thing to do, but it does help.

[Shadowomega1]

As some have pointed out but not directly stated the Ebon Jag, suffers from the same issue many of the clan mechs suffer from and that is their CT being easily hit from the sides; while many IS mechs the CT gains the damage reduction of the lost torso/arm. If they reduce the CT hitboxes on those clan mechs it would give them a bit of tanking ability.

[Paigan]

Curebores, on 26 September 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

I bought the EBJ-A for the ballistics challenge that's going on right now and can't say I'm very impressed with it.

Sure it can bring ALL the guns (if you disregard heat or have a 12 button mouse) but that counts for nothing when it can't take a hit to save its life (literally). It seems that any other mech you come across, from light to assault, can take it to pieces before you can get maybe two or three volleys off, if you're lucky (even at max armour, agressively front loaded), which is ridiculous for a supposedly heavy mech. I feel tankier in my damn Raven... I really want to like the mech, but dying immediately the instant you meet the enemy gets old fast.

So, any tips for how to do better in this mech, does the skill tree help, or is this thing just a lemon?

I never get when people say this or that mech is "fragile". Don't you know that all Mechs have the same amount of HP?
Maybe some Mechs have better or worse hitboxes, okay.
Maybe you're missing HP quirks of Mechs you used to play.
But that's about it.

The rest is rather things like you presenting too much of a and a too steady target and/or enemies having particularily good aim.
For example (no brag) I get occasionally acused of cheating because I use advanced zoom to focus one component of an enemy.
From the target's perspective, losing a healthy component in a matter of seconds, it might appear to be "fragility" or "hacking" (depending on the mental posture), but 90% of it is more like the target playing bad and the shooter playing good.

Edited by Paigan, 26 September 2017 - 12:52 PM.

[Davegt27]

want my advice
if your new start another account

I stopped using my Hellbringers and EBJs over a year and a half ago

except FP they work great for FP

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

Paigan, on 26 September 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

For example (no brag) I get occasionally acused of cheating wasting skillpoints and beeing irresponisble with resources because I use advanced zoom to focus one component of an enemy.

Fixed that for you

[panzer1b]

Its pretty well known that the EBJ is extremely squishy, and it goes away really quickly the second anything starts to hit it. Actually, the EBJ is so squishy that i will prioritize the things when i see them at the back of a push as i know how deadly all of the poky builds are (the lowest practical alfa strike ive ever seen used on the EBJ is 57, with 66-68 being more common). If the mech has a LT shoulder box, ill focus that and remove half his offense, if hes smart and doesnt bring shoulder boxes (like gauss vomit or something), ill just focus the CT and end him (GL shielding when i can hit the CT from teh side).

Now i own a EBJ, and the real trick to playing this mech is be that guy right behind the front line that doesnt draw too much attention to himself (taking a few stray hits is fine, just no 60+ alfa strikes), all while emptying over 60 alfa strike into the highest threat target on the other side. You can also play the normal hillhump/sidepoke game, but ive found that in most 1v1 situations against an aware enemy, im generally going to take more effective damage then i can apply (unless they are short range and im sitting at 500m or so in which case its a free kill). Its a good mech, and its fun to play, but its alot harder to be consistent with it relative to the hellbringer which is in my opinion a far stronger general purpose mech (doesnt carry that much less guns and it can actually shield extremely well if needed).

Anyways, as to builds that ive had luck using, the primary build is the LPL vomit, which has 66 alfa strike and used 2 LPLs and 6 ERMLs with the best setup for me is to have the ERMLs spread around evently, 2 each arm, 1 per ST, then 2 LPls 1 per ST (makes it a little bit less problematic since the enemy cant remove all my main weapons by destroying the LT which is the first thing to go 90% of the time). The second build (my prefered) is 1 GR, 5 ERML, 1 HLL, for a 68 alfa strike, and quite a bit more sustained DPS relative to pure lasers (you end up not able to fit enough DHS into teh EBJ cause of locked endo/ferro). For those who find it too hot or dont liek the asynced reloads on the ERML and HLL, you can always do 6 ERMLs. Benefit of the gauss builds is that they both use but 6 hardpoints, allowing you to spread the guns out pretty evenly, and avoiding the super easy to hit from every angle LT weakspot in the form of that awful shoulderbox.

A bit of advice though, dont run ballistics (besides gauss) or SRMs on the EBJ. Ballistics require facetime and make the already easy job of isolating hitboxes on the EBJ evcen easier, and any loadout that brings you into short range, is going to get you killed faster then you can kill the enemy 90% of the time. Just because you can mount quite a bit more firepower then a HBR and about equal to the TBR, doesnt mean the mech should even be utilized in a role where taking heavy return fire is guaranteed.

The EBJ is a good mech in the right hands, but if you want to take any sort of hits and want to play 65t clan mech, i say get a HBR, its almost as good as the EBJ offensively, it can completely shield the CT and one ST (just dont try to facetank, horrible profile for that), and it can still do every possible build archetype to some extent even if its still heavily optimized for laser vomit (its got the space to boat 26 DHS with a 60 point laser alfa, more DPS then most EBJ loadouts would offer).

[Lukoi Banacek]

Scout Derek, on 26 September 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

Let's remember it's a 65 ton mech with little to none quirks that benefit it's survival.

It's like a poor man's Timberwolf, less armor and overall tonnage but same amount of pod space.

More pod space.

[Lukoi Banacek]

The EBJ was my favorite mech before MWO came out, I played them when they weren't cool and now that they are cool, I love em even more.

EBJ is one of the stronger Clan heavies in the game right now. Glass-ish cannon? Sure, but everything has a role. EBJ aren't piggish to run with (mobility wise), low slung with high torso mounts (if you dare to use them, and I do), decent twist profile and great weight/pod space availability.

Not optimal for brawling by any means and arguably not as good at the super long range game compared to others, and obviously not capable of poptarting. But it's a mean hill humper/side poker and played properly, the convergence on it's energy weapons is damned strong combined with the high alpha builds you can bring.

Play it as the aggressive, low slung, skirmisher it's meant to be and it poaches components like very few mechs out there. My current build is a 71 alpha BEFORE you consider the 3 x LMG's it carries and it's an absolute beast (that's 81.5 firepower according to the ingame stats after MG's are mounted). Move, look, trade, keep moving so the enemy fire glances off as you pass. Static play gets you killed before long.

Easily my highest performing heavy in the game statistically (by a wide margin) and swiftly encroaching on my assaults -- including KDK3's, M2C's, SNV's, Wubshees in their hey-days statistically.

Of course there are trade-offs. There HAVE to be. It's got the torso weapons sticking up attracting attention. It's got those wide grip arms that can get shot off or leave your ST's exposed (and on my build, that's cripping lol -- the heat management once a torso is off is just....not tenable) and it's got a big nose you need to be extra protective of (i.e. the CT). But that's a fair set of trade-offs for all of the glass-cannon awesomness this mech provides in capable hands.

[Natred]

It is pretty squishy if you do not play it right. Have to limit your exposure to other mechs honestly. Its sad but its a mech that can be ct ahot from the side profile as well similar to the jenner iic. Yes it can fit a bunch of weaponry and heat sinks but its very limited. No ammo or heat sinks in the legs. Carrying to much ammo will get you killed if someone scores a lucky crit as well.

Edited by Natred, 26 September 2017 - 02:23 PM.

[Vxheous]

My wife (Tier 1) rekts ppl in her Ebon Jaguar (laser vom). You're doing something wrong

[InvictusLee]

WTF?

Have you never played a 65 ton clan mech?....

They all play the same, with the exception of the Speedy Gonzales known as the linebacker.


Your just not playing it right.
The EBJ makes for an EXCELLENT brawler, but its not mega tanky, and honestly you cant expect it to be for the tonnage. The EBJ's effectiveness is largely dependent on its pilot.
If it were not for the timberwolf, the EBJ WOULD BE the best clan heavy out there.
Admittedly the limited tonnage isnt the best for dakka, but it does mixed builds amazingly.


I dont know about you man, but my EBJ wrecks face.

[CraneArmy]

JackalBeast, on 26 September 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

Wrong. Ebj is a great mech but it has extremely easily isolated hitboxes. Lrm fire? Legs, gone. Direct fire? Right to the bulbous ct. Have any weapons in the STs? If it's anything more than one energy point, you suddenly have an extra easily isolated and horrible hitbox.

There is nothing wrong with any of this.

"OH No! It has high mounts.... that sucks", if you want the ear you can take the ear to top poke, if you dont, take it off It doesnt need it. You can run 2+4 on it without the ear and it runs great and its lower profile.


As for the ct If the opponent is on the same height as you, its impossible for sustain dps or ppfld lasers to put down a full burn on just the ct. Exactly because of the "bulbous" nose you mentioned, because the nose is so far in front of the torso's center of rotation. the speed that that nose rotates when you twist, is many times faster than mechs which dont have this.

and if you are getting hit by lrms its your fault. If you are that worried about it bring ams.