209 replies to this topic

[ROSS-128]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

a PPC at 1200m/s has an easier time hitting something at 540m

than an CERPPC at 1500m/s trying to hit something at 810m

the CERPPC has a longer travel time to get to its max range

you have to take a targeting computer to increase the velocity which increases the tonnage/crits the CERPPC takes up

its not a hard concept to grasp

Even if you can't hit jack squat at 810m (which, there are people who *can* do that), doesn't 1200m/s vs 1500m/s mean that you'll still be able to hit further out with an ERPPC than with a PPC?

Like, if you can generally only expect to hit at say... 600m with a PPC, then you'd reasonably be able to hit at 750m with an ERPPC. That's more range. Oh, and you'd do more damage, because 600m is past the PPC's optimum range.

[Khobai]

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So where is my +5 splash damage item for IS?
Or my -1 ton, -1 crit option?

Oh, yeah, right...

ive explained this

the ISERPPC gets higher velocity

you dont have to take a targeting computer

targeting computers cost tonnage and crits, by not having to take one, you save tonnage/crits

and splash damage is a joke. weve already established its barely worth anything. half the the time, half the splash damage vanishes into thin air.

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Even if you can't hit jack squat at 810m (which, there are people who *can* do that), doesn't 1200m/s vs 1500m/s mean that you'll still be able to hit further out with an ERPPC than with a PPC?

correct

but you should be comparing the CERPPC to the ISERPPC not the ISPPC

and for the CERPPC to hit at 810m as well as an ISERPPC requires a level 5 targeting computer

that adds 5 tons and 5 crits, making the CERPPC cost more tonnage/crits than the ISERPPC for similar performance

the only reason the CERPPC maintains an edge is because it can fire faster due to the better CDHS. So its CDHS giving the advantage not the CERPPC.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 02:04 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

And you can not like poptarting all you want, that doesn't change the fact that the Summoner (and Warhawk) would be ridiculously powerful with ERPPCs that do a full 15.

30 pts of unsustainable damage from 70 ton mech? So OP, much wow. The fact we dont have any kind of ERPPCs meta proves they suck, but have it your way.

Edited by Nema Nabojiv, 26 January 2018 - 02:01 PM.

[Khobai]

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30 pts of unsustainable damage from 70 ton mech? So OP, much wow. The fact we dont have any kind of ERPPCs meta proves they suck, but have it your way.

exactly

the ONLY reason CERPPC werent 15 damage originally is because they could be paired with Gauss

but thats no longer a concern since they cant be paired anymore


CERPPC could easily be rebalanced at 15 damage

it just requires that ISDHS be buffed to true double heatsinks so IS PPCs can keep up

And ISPPCs would be ghost heat limited at 3 while the CERPPC would be limited to 2.

It would be fine. People are overreacting.


three ISERPPCs would be 21 tons, do 30 damage, and have 1900m/s velocity

two CERPPCs with a level 5 targeting computer would be 17 tons, also do 30 damage, and also have ~1900m/s velocity. And the x2 CERPPCs would run hotter than the x3 ISERPPCs, enough so theyd require extra DHS to make up the tonnage difference.

with ISDHS all being true doubles, IS would be able to manage the heat from firing 3 ERPPCs at the same time. Which the awesome should be able to do anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 02:16 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Nema Nabojiv, on 26 January 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

30 pts of unsustainable damage from 70 ton mech? So OP, much wow. The fact we dont have any kind of ERPPCs meta proves they suck, but have it your way.

Unsustainable?

Don't make me laugh.

[ROSS-128]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

ive explained this

the ISERPPC gets higher velocity

you dont have to take a targeting computer

targeting computers cost tonnage and crits, by not having to take one, you save tonnage/crits

and splash damage is a joke. weve already established its barely worth anything. half the the time, half the splash damage vanishes into thin air.



correct

but you should be comparing the CERPPC to the ISERPPC not the ISPPC

and for the CERPPC to hit at 810m as well as an ISERPPC requires a level 5 targeting computer

that adds 5 tons and 5 crits, making the CERPPC cost more tonnage/crits than the ISERPPC

the only reason the CERPPC maintains an edge is because it can fire faster due to the better CDHS. So its CDHS giving the advantage not the CERPPC.

But you're not asking for the damage profile of an IS ERPPC. That's 10/15 with no splash. Of course you can have that if you like... you'd still have an edge in tonnage and crits.

You're asking for the 15/15 damage profile of a heavy PPC. That is 540 optimum range, 90 minimum range, 1200m/s, 10t and 4c.

So, why should we give you that damage profile with no minimum range 810 optimum range, 1500m/s, 6t and 2s? What makes you think that is remotely reasonable, given the other PPCs that already exist?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

ive explained this

the ISERPPC gets higher velocity

you dont have to take a targeting computer

targeting computers cost tonnage and crits, by not having to take one, you save tonnage/crits

and splash damage is a joke. weve already established its barely worth anything. half the the time, half the splash damage vanishes into thin air.

So you want CERPPC to be just 10 damage, so it can get a velocity increase?

OK then, now we're getting somewhere. I disagree, but whatever you think is best...

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

and for the CERPPC to hit at 810m as well as an ISERPPC requires a level 5 targeting computer

that adds 5 tons and 5 crits, making the CERPPC cost more tonnage/crits than the ISERPPC for similar performance

So for the IS ERPPC to get that splash damage at 810m, what? 2 LPPC? Ignore the GH limit for 0-5 damage at that range, for 6 tons, 4 slots & a whole lot of heat, plus velocity desync?

Oh, right, we're not talking about the advantages the CERPPC has, only the ERPPC velocity, I forgot, my mistake...

[Khobai]

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You're asking for the 15/15 damage profile of a heavy PPC. That is 540 optimum range, 90 minimum range, 1200m/s, 10t and 4c.

yes but the heat would be increased on the CERPPC obviously

HPPC would run significantly cooler than CERPPC

were talking like 18-19 heat for the CERPPC at 15 damage

HPPC shouldnt have a 0 damage deadzone either and ISDHS should be buffed to true double heatsinks so they can compete with CDHS.

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So for the IS ERPPC to get that splash damage at 810m, what? 2 LPPC? Ignore the GH limit for 0-5 damage at that range, for 6 tons, 4 slots & a whole lot of heat, plus velocity desync?

splash damage is not equal to an LPPC. it doesnt put 5 damage where you aim.

splash damage is borderline worthless. it goes into adjacent locations to where you aim. and half the time you dont even get the full splash damage.

splash damage is worth maybe 1/3rd of pinpoint damage. if that. 1/3rd is being optimistic.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 02:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

splash damage is borderline worthless

You keep saying this, but the statement remains false.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

yes but the heat would be increased on the CERPPC obviously

splash damage is not equal to an LPPC. it doesnt put 5 damage where you aim.

splash damage is borderline worthless. it goes into adjacent locations to where you aim. and half the time you dont even get the full splash damage.

More heat is not enough, sorry.

Yes, but that 5 damage will be less than 5 damage out at 810m, as well as not hitting the same spot at same time due to velocity difference.

If it's so worthless, then argue for it to be removed & compensated for my increased velocity & increased heat, just not to the point of being better than the IS ERPPC, since it's still 1 ton lighter & 1 crit smaller.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 26 January 2018 - 02:23 PM.

[visionGT4]

how many HPPC's did you see in the MWOWC finals - Zero

how many ERPPC did you see in the MWOWC finals - Zero

how many cERPPC's did you see in the finals? - cERPPC summons's were a very common occurrence


How are you going to apologise out of that one?

Edited by visionGT4, 26 January 2018 - 02:25 PM.

[Khobai]

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You keep saying this, but the statement remains false.

the statement is not false

if I hit a mech in an arm or leg with a CERPPC then half the splash damage vanishes into thin air

so you can really only ever rely on 2.5 of the splash damage actually occuring

the other 2.5 is totally unreliable

and the 2.5 splash damage that reliably occurs rarely contributes towards killing the mech. its generally the location youre aiming your pinpoint damage at that ends up destroying the mech. the splash damage rarely contributes towards killing mechs.

optimistically splash damage is worth about 1/3rd of pinpoint damage. so its not completely worthless but its close to it.

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how many HPPC's did you see in the MWOWC finals - Zero

how many ERPPC did you see in the [color=#222222]MWOWC finals - Zero[/color]

ive explained this

the problem is CDHS. people use clan mechs because they dissipate heat better.

ISERPPCs are too hot for IS mechs because ISDHS are vastly inferior to CDHS

people dont use CERPPC because its so much better than ISERPPC. They use CERPPC because they get access to CDHS and better dissipation to actually be able to use ERPPCs

why is that so hard for you to grasp? its CDHS that are causing the imbalance.

CDHS are the sole reason CERPPCs are manageable. the CERPPC isnt actually that great of a weapon. Its the CDHS that are ridiculously good.

and Ive suggested buffing all ISDHS to be true double heatsinks so ISDHS would be on par with CDHS. Thats how you fix it.

If IS mechs could cool down as well as clan mechs, then the ISERPPC would get used more. Same with the HPPC.

youre all mixed up. you think the CERPPC is so great. its not really. Its the CDHS that are amazing. they keep clan mechs way ahead of IS mechs for all energy weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 02:35 PM.

[ROSS-128]

So now you've moved to bargaining with heat.

Oh boy, 3-4 points hotter. It's not like that'd be trivially compensated for with the 2 extra double heatsinks that the reduced size would let you take. Or the 4 double heatsinks it would give you the tonnage for, if you have crits to spare for them.

It's amazing how myopic clanners can be... it's like they don't appreciate the value of crits and tonnage at all.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

ive explained this

the problem is CDHS

PPCs are too hot for IS mechs because ISDHS are vastly inferior to CDHS

why is that so hard for you to grasp? its CDHS that are causing the imbalance.

The primary concern seems to be damage, then velocity a close second. Heat hasn't been mentioned nearly as much, hence the mention of who has the better DHS being as relevant to this discussion as splash damage. Which is to say, if splash damage doesn't matter in this discussion, then DHS certainly don't.

[visionGT4]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

the statement is not false

if I hit a mech in an arm or leg with a CERPPC then half the splash damage vanishes into thin air

so you can really only ever rely on 2.5 of the splash damage actually occuring

the other 2.5 is totally unreliable

and the 2.5 splash damage that reliably occurs rarely contributes towards killing the mech. its generally the location youre aiming your pinpoint damage at that ends up destroying the mech. the splash damage rarely contributes towards killing mechs.



ive explained this

the problem is CDHS

PPCs are too hot for IS mechs because ISDHS are vastly inferior to CDHS

why is that so hard for you to grasp? its CDHS that are causing the imbalance.

CDHS are the sole reason CERPPCs are manageable. the CERPPC isnt actually that great of a weapon. Its the CDHS that are ridiculously good.

and Ive suggested buffing all ISDHS to be true double heatsinks so ISDHS would be on par with CDHS. Thats how you fix it.

The problem is clan entitlement - theres no way PGI will have the balls to normalise heatsinks across the tech basses. The outrage would be palatable. And if PGI arnt selling easy mode packs for stupid $ they don't have a business.

Edited by visionGT4, 26 January 2018 - 02:36 PM.

[Khobai]

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So now you've moved to bargaining with heat.

of course. heat is the primary balancing factor for all energy weapons.

you cant have a CERPPC do 15 damage without also increasing the heat to balance it.

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The primary concern seems to be damage, then velocity a close second. Heat hasn't been mentioned nearly as much, hence the mention of who has the better DHS being as relevant to this discussion as splash damage. Which is to say, if splash damage doesn't matter in this discussion, then DHS certainly don't.

heat is definitely a concern

heat is the reason why ISERPPCs arnt used but CERPPCs are

because IS mechs cant handle the heat. CDHS are 30% better at removing heat.

I want to change that.

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Which is to say, if splash damage doesn't matter in this discussion, then DHS certainly don't.

wrong. CDHS are at the core of the issue. The fact that CDHS are 30% better than ISDHS absolutely matters lmao.

virtually every balance problem related to energy weapons can be traced to CDHS being substantially better than ISDHS.

PGI knows it thats why they nerfed the heatgen skill nodes. They know what the problem is. They just went about fixing it the wrong way.

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The problem is clan entitlement - theres no way PGI will have the balls to normalise heatsinks across the tech basses. The outrage would be palatable. And if PGI arnt selling easy mode packs for stupid $ they don't have a business.

there is no entitlement

I want to buff ISDHS into true double heatsinks

I want to remove min range on ISPPCs

I want ghost heat limit of 3 on ISPPCs

do you even know what the word entitlement means?

wanting to buff both sides, and the IS side more, is not entitlement

the problem here is that IS players dont have a grasp on basic vocabulary

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 02:48 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

I want to remove min range on ISPPCs

I want ghost heat limit of 3 on ISPPCs

Linear damage drop-off for PPC/HPPC/LPPC/LRM/ATM
GH of 3 for PPC/SNPPC/ERPPC(both)
GH of 4-6 for LPPC

PGIPLZ?!

[visionGT4]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

of course. heat is the primary balancing factor for energy weapons.



there is no entitlement

I want to buff ISDHS into true double heatsinks

I want to remove min range on ISPPCs

I want ghost heat limit of 3 on ISPPCs

do you even know what the word entitlement means?

Your actually the most rational of all the clam shrills and its clear you want a better game for all to play. However the victim mentality which doesn't befit a proud clam warrior is what creates the friction.

Its just a shame that the other 99.99% of clam aligned players expect to be able to select easy mode from the mech hanger and club baby seals, combine that with PGI's lack of moral fibre and disrespect to the IP - we have a cluster f4rk that is mwo in its current form

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

wrong. CDHS are at the core of the issue. The fact that CDHS are 30% better than ISDHS absolutely matters lmao.

Wrong. At least according to the last 2-3 pages of "discussion" the problem is damage. Then it was velocity. Only *now* is the problem heat.

This is why people get called apologists...

Get some sleep / take a break, collect your thoughts, try again tomorrow, because this is a mess.