209 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Wrong. At least according to the last 2-3 pages of "discussion" the problem is damage. Then it was velocity. Only *now* is the problem heat.

the last 2-3 pages of discussion were wrong. thats my point.

the ISHPPC doesnt suffer for lack of damage. it does 15 damage. it does plenty of damage. more than the CERPPC.

the ISHPPC suffers because of heat. and it suffers because of a zero damage deadzone.

the best way to make the ISHPPC better while keeping it balanced isnt to increase its damage. Its to increase the rate at which ISDHS can dissipate heat. And to replace its damage deadzone with damage dropoff instead.

What needs to happen is ISDHS need to be better so IS can play with their PPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 02:54 PM.

[ROSS-128]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

of course. heat is the primary balancing factor for all energy weapons.



heat is definitely a concern

heat is the reason why ISERPPCs arnt used but CERPPCs are

because IS mechs cant handle the heat. CDHS are 30% better at removing heat.

I want to change that.



wrong. CDHS are at the core of the issue. The fact that CDHS are 30% better than ISDHS absolutely matters lmao.

virtually every balance problem related to energy weapons can be traced to CDHS being substantially better than ISDHS.

PGI knows it thats why they nerfed the heatgen skill nodes. They know what the problem is. They just went about fixing it the wrong way.



there is no entitlement

I want to buff ISDHS into true double heatsinks

I want to remove min range on ISPPCs

I want ghost heat limit of 3 on ISPPCs

do you even know what the word entitlement means?

wanting to buff both sides, and the IS side more, is not entitlement

the problem here is that IS players dont have a grasp on basic vocabulary

It's not the only factor though. Lasers generally getting a break on heat is a major contributing factor to why they're so dominant of course (TT CERLL: 10d/12h, MWO CERLL: 11d/10h for example), but tonnage and crits are also important factors. Especially since they contribute to heat management in the form of heat sinks.

Seems to just be a giant blind spot for you though... it's like you don't even know what it's like to have crits or tonnage be the bottleneck of your build.

Changing IS DHS to truedubs is probably the only bargaining chip you've offered that would actually make a dent in the absolutely huge tonnage/crit gap. Especially the tonnage/crit gap between the HPPC and a TTCERPPC.

I suppose "entitlement" may not be exactly the right word, but like I said it's like you don't know what it's like. You're sitting there like "Man, I don't know why those spheroids are getting so hung up on crits and tonnage. It's not like there's any shortage of those to go around, they should be grateful I offered them 3 heat for it!"

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

the last 2-3 pages of discussion were wrong

the CHPPC doesnt suffer because of damage. it does 15 damage. it does plenty of damage.

the CHPPC suffers because of heat.

OK, so now the CERPPC doesn't need any more velocity and it doesn't need 15 straight damage, PGI just needs to buff IS DHS?

...Alright then?

[Kin3ticX]

Treb 7k makes a pretty nice 2xHPPC platform, but i still think the base cfg of HPPC is a tad on the weak side.

[Khobai]

Quote

OK, so now the CERPPC doesn't need any more velocity and it doesn't need 15 straight damage, PGI just needs to buff IS DHS?

no now youre twisting around what I said for your own benefit

both sides need buffs

whether you make the CERPPC 15 damage or fix the splash damage so it always does 5 splash damage and none of this sometimes 5 damage and sometimes 2.5 damage crap. either way the CERPPC needs a buff.

if CERPPC is resigned to have splash damage it should at least be splash damage that works 100% of the time and doesnt vanish into thin air. but balancing the CERPPC at 15 damage would not be impossible either.

and ISDHS need buffs, damage deadzones on ISPPCs needs to be removed, and GH limit needs to be increased.

and no its not a sudden revelation. ive been saying for months that ISDHS need buffs.

clan mechs can have like 24-26 DHS without much trouble and IS mechs can only have like 18-20 DHS, often way less. Thats a huge difference in overall heat dissipation.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 03:03 PM.

[FupDup]

The "problem" is not heat, damage, velocity, splash, or any other XML stat.

The problem is that people are still framing these types of discussions as Clan player vs. IS player, making it into the same partisan politics ******** that has been dragging down the United States for decades.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

a PPC at 1200m/s has an easier time hitting something at 540m

than an CERPPC at 1500m/s trying to hit something at 810m

1) 0.45 seconds to reach target at 540 meters and 1200 m/s.
2) 0.54 seconds to reach target at 810 meters and 1500 m/s.

9/100ths of a second increase in "difficulty"

Just stating.

[ROSS-128]

That's easy for you to say. Gee, I wonder who would benefit if we just transferred over the TT values with a smile and a nod in the name of just getting along... no ulterior motive there, no siree.

[Metus regem]

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

no now youre twisting around what I said for your own benefit

whether you make the CERPPC 15 damage or fix the splash damage so it always does 5 splash damage and none of this sometimes 5 damage and sometimes 2.5 damage crap. either way the CERPPC needs a buff.

You said the last 2-3 pages of discussion were wrong, which includes any points made about the CERPPC needing any buffs. Your words, not mine.

The only buff the CERPPC needs is a GH cap of 3, along with the PPC, SNPPC & IS ERPPC, which in turn allows for Gauss to be used with them a little more, but not as much as it was.

Just add the EERPPC as another Clan PPC option, give it better velocity & higher heat. Boom, done.

[Khobai]

Quote

1) 0.45 seconds to reach target at 540 meters and 1200 m/s.
2) 0.54 seconds to reach target at 810 meters and 1500 m/s.

9/100ths of a second increase in "difficulty"

Just stating.

just enough time for the target to zig or zag out of the way.

but if you compare it to the ISERPPC the difference is more substantial.

enough that CERPPCs have to take a targeting computer to hit as accurately at the same ranges.

youre also forgetting that PPC velocity quirks are quite common among IS mechs as well.

Quote

You said the last 2-3 pages of discussion were wrong, which includes any points made about the CERPPC needing any buffs. Your words, not mine.

yes the last 2-3 pages of discussion that implied that damage is the #1 problem with the HPPC are wrong.

obviously not everything in the last 2-3 pages is wrong. dont take things so literally.

damage is not the #1 problem. heat is.

increasing the damage on the HPPC would just make it unbalanced. buffing ISDHS would make it viable though while keeping it balanced. and changing the damage deadzone to damage dropoff would make it less frustrating.

that is how you fix the HPPC.

ive explained how to fix all the PPCs... but apparently even the slightest suggestion to buff the CERPPC makes me entitled clan apologist. Even if I want to buff IS more and the suggestion is 100% reasonable.

hilarious. IS crybabies never change. even if IS was superior to clans they would still remain in denial about it. IS players are the ones that perpetually play the victim even when theyre not.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 03:20 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

FupDup, on 26 January 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

The "problem" is not heat, damage, velocity, splash, or any other XML stat.

The problem is that people are still framing these types of discussions as Clan player vs. IS player, making it into the same partisan politics ******** that has been dragging down the United States for decades.

I try not to

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

just enough time for the target to zig or zag out of the way

What 'mech can do anything meaningful in 0.54s that it can't do in 0.45s? Locust/Piranha/Commando/Mist Lynx, maybe?

[Y E O N N E]

I don't recall anybody saying the damage was the issue with the HPPC. Damage-to-weight, cooling-to-weight/size, sure. But not the damage itself.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

yes the last 2-3 pages of discussion that implied that damage is the #1 problem with the HPPC are wrong.

HPPC? Most of the last 2-3 pages was about CERPPC vs ISERPPC.

I can't even...

[Snowbluff]

Metus regem, on 26 January 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

AWS-8Q

Hot as hell, and you are fracked if anyone gets inside of that 90m dead zone....

Oh boy... you know what I did? I filled my last mechbay wiith a Sleipnir to avoid making a mistake. XD

FupDup, on 26 January 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

The "problem" is not heat, damage, velocity, splash, or any other XML stat.

The problem is that people are still framing these types of discussions as Clan player vs. IS player, making it into the same partisan politics ******** that has been dragging down the United States for decades.

Here here! CERPPC is subpar for PPC regardless of what faction you support! Should it be buffed? Naw. :3

[Kin3ticX]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

I don't recall anybody saying the damage was the issue with the HPPC. Damage-to-weight, cooling-to-weight/size, sure. But not the damage itself.

im doing 15 damage per HLL shot and 10 damage per HPPC shot due to my 70% PPC hit rate. Maybe if I try harder I can improve but I think the PPFLD boogieman gets too much credit around here.

Inner sphere just doesnt have a big boy gun like the HLL that is inside a 4 ton package with few tradeoffs vs a Heavy Gauss or a Heavy PPC.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 26 January 2018 - 03:19 PM.

[Metus regem]

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 January 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

What 'mech can do anything meaningful in 0.54s that it can't do in 0.45s? Locust/Piranha/Commando/Mist Lynx, maybe?

-shrug- inside of optimal range, once the average person process that they are under attack, see the bolt heading to them and try to take evasive action is about 0.25 seconds.. but they have to see the attack coming. What I've found, is that most players in MWO do not have good peripheral vision or situational awareness, so much so that I only really have to start predicting near the edge or beyond optimal range to hit with the PPC family.

Have I fought pilots that can evade inside the optional range, yes, but they are rare. Usually what disrupts a PPC shout inside optimal range is a wonky terrain hit box, that is far larger than the shown model.

As someone that likes the PPC family, would I like to see the cERPPC a little better, yes. But do I understand that in the greater balance, that it is right where it needs to be.

Snowbluff, on 26 January 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

Oh boy... you know what I did? I filled my last mechbay wiith a Sleipnir to avoid making a mistake. XD

You know what I pilot, when I want to take out an Assault?

WHK-PRIME

It out Awesomes the Awesome....

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

ive explained how to fix all the PPCs... but apparently even the slightest suggestion to buff the CERPPC makes me entitled clan apologist. Even if I want to buff IS more and the suggestion is 100% reasonable.

hilarious. IS crybabies never change. even if IS was superior to clans they would still remain in denial about it.

As mentioned, the only buff the CERPPC needs is a GH cap of 3. Anything else would require some, if not all, other PPCs to be altered. That's a lot less likely.

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't recall anybody saying the damage was the issue with the HPPC. Damage-to-weight, cooling-to-weight/size, sure. But not the damage itself.

yeah I read between the lines. when someone says that the HPPC has a damage-to-weight problem, and knows fully thats its weight is unlikely to change, that heavily implies increasing its damage.

There is no other way to interpret that.

Since the only way to improve a damage to weight ratio is to increase damage or decrease weight. And we know full well PGI wont decrease weight.

WOW KHOBAI WITH HIS AMAZING POWERS OF DEDUCTION

Quote

As mentioned, the only buff the CERPPC needs is a GH cap of 3. Anything else would require some, if not all, other PPCs to be altered. That's a lot less likely.

all other PPCs do need to be altered. the damage deadzones need to be replaced with damage dropoff. and the heat needs to be lowered on a lot of them. either by reducing the heat or buffing ISDHS.

all non-heavy PPCs should be ghost heat limit of 3 as well. and at the very least CERPPC splash damage needs to be fixed so it always does 5 damage and it doesnt vanish.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 03:28 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

all other PPCs do need to be altered.

All PPCs that aren't the HPPC need a GH alteration, sure, but outside that, not so much.