209 replies to this topic

[ROSS-128]

Result on playtesting: The Thunderbolt build seems to work well enough in T3 quickplay at least. It generally feels like it's pulling its weight, and deletes components/secures kills fairly consistently. It also seems to make whoever is targeted by it pretty nervous, which is a plus. It kind of feels like playing the child of a Hunchback and a Banshee, but hotter and with a minimum range to worry about. Grabbing every heat management/reduction skill node under the sun helps.

This version was without AMS, partly because the Thunderbolt I was refitting didn't have one and I didn't feel like swapping it in. Definitely toasty, if it got pressured by a player savvy enough to realize how hot I must be running it would probably be in trouble. In one match where a push collapsed it wasn't able to do much about it because of how hot it was running, definitely a weak point.

Verdict: playable. You might not be seeing it at MWOWC anytime soon, but a typical player should at least get an enjoyable experience out of it as long as they're okay with projectiles and heat management.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

if you want to improve its damage to weight ratio it is the only option. and thats what people were complaining about: that its damage to weight ratio is bad.

but IMO its not damage to weight but rather damage to heat ratio thats the problem. and the damage deadzone.

Damage/weight and damage/heat are linked. You need more weight for more DHS to cool a hotter gun, which also means more weight for a bigger engine to fit those DHS. If you increase efficiency of DHS, or just make the weapons colder, then you don't need to spend as much weight to make that weapon viable alone and can spend it on other weapons.

Everything is linked.

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im not focusing on a single weapon?

You are.

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Buffing ISDHS helps all ISPPCs. Like I keep saying over and over.

Yes it does.

But if you take 3x cERPPC doing 10+5 and allow them to fire without ghost heat, which is one of the other things you have been advocating, that puts us right back at square one because that's still a better, lighter alternative to a trio of isERPPC because it's still extra damage, and more of it.

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Im the only one here that seems to see the bigger picture.

You really aren't. You lag me by a considerable margin and the shot calls you've made that have coincidentally made it into the game have thus far only made it a more miserable experience than it was, the two most notable being the LPL nerf and the PPC+Gauss link.

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everyone else is hungup on what I said about buffing CERPPCs. lmao.

Probably because your communication skills are terribad and you spread out your grand design over several pages, only trickling it out as people poke holes in whatever breadcrumb you placed earlier, instead of putting it in the original suggestion.

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youre the ones hung up on one weapon: the CERPPC. its all you focus on. you ignore all of the suggestions I made to buff IS PPCs because it included a suggestion to also buff CERPPC.

EVEN THOUGH KHOBAI WANTS TO BUFF ISPPCS TO BE EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS CERPPC, BECAUSE HE SUGGESTED BUFFING CERPPC, HES AN ENTITLED CLAN APOLOGIST.

thats what you people sound like. its ridiculous.

First, I have never called anybody a Clan apologist. I only call people what they are: stupid.

Second, you are on record as saying that cERPPC should be better than all of the isERPPCs because it is the only option. The interplay among heat, range, and velocity alone do not allow that. They were not built to support that much flexibility without the weapon in question being broken as f*ck. So, yeah, your understanding of the mechanics is pretty terrible.

[Khobai]

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Damage/weight and damage/heat are linked

damage to weight ratio has nothing to do with heat.

damage to heat ratio is a different thing entirely.

thats why smurfy has different categories for damage divided by tonnage and damage divided by heat. because theyre different things entirely.

not sure why you pick stupid arguments to try and win, guess you cant win the ones that matter.

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But if you take 3x cERPPC doing 10+5 and allow them to fire without ghost heat, which is one of the other things you have been advocating, that puts us right back at square one because that's still a better, lighter alternative to a trio of isERPPC because it's still extra damage, and more of it.

its not a lighter alternative because you have to take a targeting computer to get the same velocity as the ISERPPC. its a heavier alternative.

it was a deliberate move reducing the velocity of the CERPPC. they knew wed have to take targeting computers to bump the velocity back up. That cancels out the tonnage/crit advantage.

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You really aren't. You lag me by a considerable margin and the shot calls you've made that have coincidentally made it into the game have thus far only made it a more miserable experience than it was, the two most notable being the LPL nerf and the PPC+Gauss link.

Im not making shot calls, PGI doesnt listen to me lmao

Im just predicting what PGI will do.

And linking PPC+Gauss hasnt made the game less enjoyable. Were far better off without 50 damage PPFLD flying around at 600m. If you dont understand that you really should not be making commentary on other peoples balance suggestions.

If you want to do 50 damage PPFLD, dual heavy gauss is the better balanced version of that, which is limited to 220m. Its balanced by having substantially shorter range.

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Probably because your communication skills are terribad and you spread out your grand design over several pages, only trickling it out as people poke holes in whatever breadcrumb you placed earlier, instead of putting it in the original suggestion.

I layed out my grand design in one post. dont know what youre talking about.

in fact I can do it in one sentence.

buff ISDHS, remove damage deadzones, raise ghost heat limits to 3, and fix CERPPC splash damage.

I have to spend multiple pages defending myself from crackpots like you

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Second, you are on record as saying that cERPPC should be better than all of the isERPPCs because it is the only option

correct

and that makes perfect sense

if you only have 1 option as opposed to 5 specialized options, your 1 option needs to be more versatile. what you lack in specialization you need to make up for in versatility.

but I am also on record as saying all 5 of IS' specialized PPCs need to be good in their respective specialized niches and that ISDHS need to be as good as CDHS. And that damage deadzones need to be removed.

so CERPPC should be versatile while ISPPCs are specialized. ISPPCs would be just as powerful in their respective niche but they wouldnt be as broad spectrum as the CERPPC.

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They were not built to support that much flexibility without the weapon in question being broken as f*ck. So, yeah, your understanding of the mechanics is pretty terrible.

Thats wrong. CERPPC can be balanced that way fine it just requires buffing ISDHS and ISPPCs. I want to raise the bar for all PPCs. And no it would not be broken.

Laser vomit is broken. Firing three CERPPCs at once would not be broken lmao (especially with the corresponding IS buffs I suggested). I can fire three CERPPCs right now with my warhawk and its not broken (its super toasty but its not broken levels of damage). And it still wouldnt be broken with less heat if the ghost heat limit was bumped to 3. It still pales in comparison to the 60-70 damage alphas laser vomit is capable of, even on medium mechs.

There is no evidence that what youre saying is true. its fake news.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 10:23 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

correct

and that makes perfect sense

if you only have 1 option as opposed to 5 specialized options, your 1 option needs to be better

Arguing for the CERPPC to be the most versatile PPC type is NOT the same as arguing for the CERPPC to the strongest PPC type. Your wording sounds more like the latter than the former.

Edited by FupDup, 26 January 2018 - 09:54 PM.

[Khobai]

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Arguing for the CERPPC to be the most versatile PPC type is NOT the same as arguing for the CERPPC to the strongest PPC type. Your wording sounds more like the latter than the former.

because it should be both.

it should be the strongest overall. but only ever so slightly stronger. it would be the strongest overall specifically because of its versatility.

while the individual ISPPCs should be just as strong if not stronger in their respective niches. they should be highly specialized though.

obviously the intricate balancing act is more than PGI can handle. But thats how I would attempt it.


but before they even try to balance weapons they need to bring CDHS and ISDHS more in line

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 10:47 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

its not a lighter alternative because you have to take a targeting computer to get the same velocity as the ISERPPC. its a heavier alternative.

it was a deliberate move reducing the velocity of the CERPPC. they knew wed have to take targeting computers to bump the velocity back up. That cancels out the tonnage/crit advantage.

As mentioned though, that extra 15 splash damage can't just be handwaved. If you're going to add velocity to the CERPPC to get it up to that of the ISERPPC and claim that extra tonnage & slots has to be considered, then you also have to add extra weapons to the ISERPPC to make up that extra damage. This also takes up extra tonnage & crit slots and unlike the TCs, also uses weapon hardpoints, plus it requires extra damage per PPC you're comparing it to, vs a single TC to buff 1, 2 or 3 CERPPCs.

TL;DR - it's not a fair comparison and you know it, so stop trying to use it.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

And linking PPC+Gauss hasnt made the game less enjoyable. Were far better off without 50 damage PPFLD flying around at 600m. If you dont understand that you really should not be making commentary on other peoples balance suggestions.

If you want to do 50 damage PPFLD, dual heavy gauss is the better balanced version of that, which is limited to 220m. Its balanced by having substantially shorter range.

While I do agree, GH of 3 for (most) PPCs then leads to 40 PPFLD for IS & 45 (40 + 5) for Clan. Not what it was, but close. I agree the Gauss+PPC GH link was a good step, but a tweak to allow it in a lesser form is likely a good move.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

if you only have 1 option as opposed to 5 specialized options, your 1 option needs to be more versatile. what you lack in specialization you need to make up for in versatility.

but I am also on record as saying all 5 of IS' specialized PPCs need to be good in their respective specialized niches and that ISDHS need to be as good as CDHS. And that damage deadzones need to be removed.

so CERPPC should be versatile while ISPPCs are specialized. ISPPCs would be just as powerful in their respective niche but they wouldnt be as broad spectrum as the CERPPC.

Which is what some of find baffling, because the CERPPC is the #2 or #3 PPC choice in almost any category you'd like to choose, meaning it already is the most versatile PPC available. Unless the recent cooldown nerf altered it by too much, which I find doubtful.

[ROSS-128]

The other reason you can't consider the TC to be part of the PPC is... it's not part of the PPC. You can run the PPC with no targeting computer, the difference between 1900 and 1500 m/s is not that big until you're well past your optimum range anyway. Pretty much everyone except you does this. Including the IS, IS players run standard/light/heavy PPCs with no targeting computer all the time (well, when they run PPCs at all) and they only get 1200m/s.

"Khobai feels like he needs a TC5 to use PPCs so let's treat it as an integral part of the weapon" is not a good balance metric. It's myopic and self-centered.

Edited by ROSS-128, 27 January 2018 - 05:23 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Metus regem, on 25 January 2018 - 09:08 AM, said:

Because PPC's are a high skill floor weapon system... If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they are the hardest weapon to master.

Gauss is far harder to me..

[Mystere]

Boys! Boys! Boys!

Instead of increasing PPC damage, why not instead increase it's disruptive effects?

I know people will be hating on the suggestion, but for situations like this, lore is the answer.

Edited by Mystere, 27 January 2018 - 05:41 AM.

[Metus regem]

Samial, on 27 January 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

Gauss is far harder to me..

I find once you get the charge timing down, the velocity on the Gauss family become nearly hit scan weapons, no leading required... then again I average about 90 ping on the NA servers.