239 replies to this topic

[Ovion]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

IS got 2 'mechs in a row, now Clans get 2 in a row, then... who knows?

Do we know what won Russ' poll for the 'mech-a-month vs 4 pack?

I would imagine, a mix of player feedback and numbers.

If the single pack system made the same amount of overall profit a month as the '2 a month' 4 pack method, then there would be no incentive to push the extra workload, leaving more time for other projects.

[DontStandBehindMe]

Ovion, on 10 October 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I would imagine, a mix of player feedback and numbers.

If the single pack system made the same amount of overall profit a month as the '2 a month' 4 pack method, then there would be no incentive to push the extra workload, leaving more time for other projects.

The problem still remains (as many others have been pointing out for months) that this single mechpack format is outdated as we no longer need 3 of a mech to skill it up...just put a price on each mech ($5.00 per light/$7.50 per medium/heavy/assault...special edition mech $10.00...hero $15.00) and let us buy what we want. PGI will get more sales because people can "buy in" for less and get the variant(s) they want without having to pay for ones they don't want.

[Jay Leon Hart]

DontStandBehindMe, on 11 October 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

The problem still remains (as many others have been pointing out for months) that this single mechpack format is outdated as we no longer need 3 of a mech to skill it up...just put a price on each mech ($5.00 per light/$7.50 per medium/heavy/assault...special edition mech $10.00...hero $15.00) and let us buy what we want. PGI will get more sales because people can "buy in" for less and get the variant(s) they want without having to pay for ones they don't want.

This is of course an option, but people have to accept that the prices will not be comparable, they will be more on average.

If the 3 standard + 2 reinforcements + 1 hero + 1 (S) are $70, expect it to cost $90-$100 to pick them all up if allowed to mix'n'match.

[DontStandBehindMe]

Jay Leon Hart, on 11 October 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

This is of course an option, but people have to accept that the prices will not be comparable, they will be more on average.

If the 3 standard + 2 reinforcements + 1 hero + 1 (S) are $70, expect it to cost $90-$100 to pick them all up if allowed to mix'n'match.

And that too is an opinion. The cost can be whatever PGI feels like making it...there is no reason it HAS to be more just like the cost per tier of the old 4-packs were the same as the cost for the basic single chassis ($20.00). There is no reason the cost has to be more in fact there is far more reason for it to be less if it generates more overall sales for PGI. Being able to buy just the variant that appeals to you could turn all those "the only one I want is in the reinforcement pack and I am not spending that much for just one mech, I'll wait for cbill release (earning PGI $0.00)" into "only $7.50 for the one I want, sure its only $7.50". This is digital content, its not a new car or tv...yes it still takes time to code but as a virtual product it can have any price, it doesn't have to be higher just because you are potentially buying 1/3 the pixels.

[Jay Leon Hart]

DontStandBehindMe, on 11 October 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

And that too is an opinion. The cost can be whatever PGI feels like making it...there is no reason it HAS to be more just like the cost per tier of the old 4-packs were the same as the cost for the basic single chassis ($20.00). There is no reason the cost has to be more in fact there is far more reason for it to be less if it generates more overall sales for PGI.

For the old 4-pack vs newer single pack comparison, remember you got the equivalent of 4 (S) 'mechs for $80, which would cost you a further $80 with the single packs, then you can choose to keep or sell the non-(S) basic version. $80 for 12 'mechs, 4 of which have a C-Bill bonus vs $160 for 16 'mechs, 4 of which have a C-Bill bonus.

While it could be good business to sell them for less, with a declining player base and splitting dev time between this and MW5 (which is currently not making them any money), together with their history of increasing prices vs lowering them (or reducing value, such as banked premium time becoming active for packs), it is far more likely the mix'n'match model would be an overall increase in price.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Jay Leon Hart, on 11 October 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

For the old 4-pack vs newer single pack comparison, remember you got the equivalent of 4 (S) 'mechs for $80, which would cost you a further $80 with the single packs, then you can choose to keep or sell the non-(S) basic version. $80 for 12 'mechs, 4 of which have a C-Bill bonus vs $160 for 16 'mechs, 4 of which have a C-Bill bonus.

While it could be good business to sell them for less, with a declining player base and splitting dev time between this and MW5 (which is currently not making them any money), together with their history of increasing prices vs lowering them (or reducing value, such as banked premium time becoming active for packs), it is far more likely the mix'n'match model would be an overall increase in price.

Even still, if the price increase were modest per-variant, I'd be game for it... If picking two mechs cost less than getting three mechs, one of which I don't want, even if the value isn't the same, I'd rather get the two... Honestly, I basically don't buy a pack unless the (S) variant is what I want, because I'll almost never use a non-Cbill boost mech. So if I had the option to just buy the (S) at $20, I'd be happy (if it still had most of the perks, premium time, cockpit item, etc) It would certainly make me more inclined to buy packs I'm on the fence for if I can get in for less...

It would also be nice if we could float the (S) to whichever mech... Like the Nightstar (S) variant is garbage :/ As much as I want the paint, and the mech in general, the heavily restricting hardpoint locations on the main variant make me not buy anything because you really can't do anything with it... All the hardpoints are in the arms, but with every available actuator, it's severely crit-blocked, you can't squeeze hardly anything in there...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 12 October 2017 - 09:01 AM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

I'd even buy Heroes for $20, if they'd remove me having to buy the basic pack to unlock access.

[Gas Guzzler]

This thing is going to be SO annoying.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Looks like PGI is shortchanging the Clans again. While I am looking forward to getting the Piranha, according to its order page it will have a top speed of 145.8. But, according to its sarna page, it is supposed to have a top speed of 151. Same engine, but less speed. This is not right! I am well aware of why they are doing it (because of the hard speed limit their crappy engine can handle), I would like to know why they are insisting on shortchanging us when they do not have to. If you need to limit its speed, PGI, then why not just cap the max engine rating to bring it down to a workable speed and therefore give us a little more tonnage to play with? So why are you intentionally shortchanging us on this, PGI?

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 15 October 2017 - 12:47 AM.

[Burning2nd]

Dont you love it when the patches are already coming for something thats not even out yet?

stop buying mechs.. start getting better with what you got..

and the maps and modes will get better

[Gasoline]

Jep Jorgensson, on 15 October 2017 - 12:46 AM, said:

Looks like PGI is shortchanging the Clans again. While I am looking forward to getting the Piranha, according to its order page it will have a top speed of 145.8. But, according to its sarna page, it is supposed to have a top speed of 151. Same engine, but less speed. This is not right! I am well aware of why they are doing it (because of the hard speed limit their crappy engine can handle), I would like to know why they are insisting on shortchanging us when they do not have to. If you need to limit its speed, PGI, then why not just cap the max engine rating to bring it down to a workable speed and therefore give us a little more tonnage to play with? So why are you intentionally shortchanging us on this, PGI?

Well it's the same speed as a Locust with the same engine.

Speed in MWO is calculated by:

engine rating / tonnage * 1.5 (modifier for running speed in regards to walking speed in Battletech) * 0.03 (one hex in Battletech is 30 meters) * 360 (one turn in Battltech is 10 seconds in MWO) * Speed Tweak

So for the Piranha it's 180/20*1.5*0.03*360 = 145.8 kph.

It's the same for every mech in the game. No difference between IS and Clan.

[Dee Eight]

Gasoline, on 15 October 2017 - 02:07 AM, said:

Well it's the same speed as a Locust with the same engine.

Speed in MWO is calculated by:

engine rating / tonnage * 1.5 (modifier for running speed in regards to walking speed in Battletech) * 0.03 (one hex in Battletech is 30 meters) * 360 (one turn in Battltech is 10 seconds in MWO) * Speed Tweak

So for the Piranha it's 180/20*1.5*0.03*360 = 145.8 kph.

It's the same for every mech in the game. No difference between IS and Clan.

the problem with the formula is it ignores the rounding up stage that occurred in battletech.

Walking speed in movement points was engine rating / tonnage, and had to result in whole numbers. Fractions weren't allowed (unlike in this game). You didn't see a centurion using a 255XL instead of a 250XL just because it was the same weight in battletech. Running speed being 1.5 times walking is fine when the walking movement point value is an even number
but when it was an odd number (3, 5, 7, etc) then you had to round up. A hussar for example with its 270 engine in a 30 ton chassis results in a walking MP value of 9 and a running of 14.

There is no proper "rounding up" in the MWO speed formula when going from walking to running math. A 250 engine in a hunchback or centurion in MWO without the speed tweak is 81kph top speed when its supposed to be 86.4. The speed tweak, even if maxed out doesn't produce the required matching speed. 81 * 1.075 = 87.075 which is faster. On mechs with even walking MP ratings, such as a phoenix hawk with a 270 engine, the math works properly without the skill nodes and we hit a top speed of 97.2, and then it ends up faster than its supposed to with them.

The piranha, being one of those 9 MP walking rating mechs... has broken math because 9 x 1.5 = 13.5, and it isn't properly being rounded up to 14 before the next stage of the math calculations. They've taken the simple (0.03 x 360) bit to get a value for speed in kph instead of MP per turn which is 10.8 as the result, then ignored a fundamental part of battletech construction rules by NOT rounding up fractional results when working out the MP rating.

[Ovion]

Dee Eight, on 15 October 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

Spoiler

the problem with the formula is it ignores the rounding up stage that occurred in battletech.

Walking speed in movement points was engine rating / tonnage, and had to result in whole numbers. Fractions weren't allowed (unlike in this game). You didn't see a centurion using a 255XL instead of a 250XL just because it was the same weight in battletech. Running speed being 1.5 times walking is fine when the walking movement point value is an even number
but when it was an odd number (3, 5, 7, etc) then you had to round up. A hussar for example with its 270 engine in a 30 ton chassis results in a walking MP value of 9 and a running of 14.

There is no proper "rounding up" in the MWO speed formula when going from walking to running math. A 250 engine in a hunchback or centurion in MWO without the speed tweak is 81kph top speed when its supposed to be 86.4. The speed tweak, even if maxed out doesn't produce the required matching speed. 81 * 1.075 = 87.075 which is faster. On mechs with even walking MP ratings, such as a phoenix hawk with a 270 engine, the math works properly without the skill nodes and we hit a top speed of 97.2, and then it ends up faster than its supposed to with them.

The piranha, being one of those 9 MP walking rating mechs... has broken math because 9 x 1.5 = 13.5, and it isn't properly being rounded up to 14 before the next stage of the math calculations. They've taken the simple (0.03 x 360) bit to get a value for speed in kph instead of MP per turn which is 10.8 as the result, then ignored a fundamental part of battletech construction rules by NOT rounding up fractional results when working out the MP rating.

Well yes, it's rounded because in TT you have to move in full hexes.
You can't move a half hex thanks to game mechanics.
It's also why when you Sprint / Use MASC / use a Supercharger, it uses the base MP, and increases it in 0.5 increments, from 1.5, to 2, to 2.5 to 3, meaning an 'odd' number 'loses' some MP on jump (i.e, the 9MP / 14MP (run +5) / 18MP (sprint +4) )

We're also not limited explicitly by Engine rating / Tonnage = Whole number.

We aren't limited to only 100, 120, 140, 160, 180 on the Piranha and other 20T mechs.
We aren't limited to only 100, 200, 300, 400 on 100T mechs

Engines aren't given a modifier of cost based on tonnage either.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jep Jorgensson, on 15 October 2017 - 12:46 AM, said:

Looks like PGI is shortchanging the Clans again. While I am looking forward to getting the Piranha, according to its order page it will have a top speed of 145.8. But, according to its sarna page, it is supposed to have a top speed of 151. Same engine, but less speed. This is not right! I am well aware of why they are doing it (because of the hard speed limit their crappy engine can handle), I would like to know why they are insisting on shortchanging us when they do not have to. If you need to limit its speed, PGI, then why not just cap the max engine rating to bring it down to a workable speed and therefore give us a little more tonnage to play with? So why are you intentionally shortchanging us on this, PGI?

Are you kidding me? Its the same speed as a Locust. MWO speed is just calculated slightly differently. Don't worry, you can take speed tweek nodes and go faster than 151.

This is like the weakest complaint i have ever heard. They aren't "short changing the Clans", most mechs in the game don't match the speed given in Sarna.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 October 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Are you kidding me? Its the same speed as a Locust. MWO speed is just calculated slightly differently. Don't worry, you can take speed tweek nodes and go faster than 151.

This is like the weakest complaint i have ever heard. They aren't "short changing the Clans", most mechs in the game don't match the speed given in Sarna.

Speaking of which, I just looked up the Locust on sarna. Different engine and speed. So would you care to explain your position?

[Gas Guzzler]

Jep Jorgensson, on 15 October 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Speaking of which, I just looked up the Locust on sarna. Different engine and speed. So would you care to explain your position?

Have you heard of critical thinking?

Put the Piranha stock engine size in a Locust, and observe what the speed is. Make sure your Locust doesn't have speed tweek!

[Dee Eight]

Jep Jorgensson, on 15 October 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Speaking of which, I just looked up the Locust on sarna. Different engine and speed. So would you care to explain your position?

And ignored any sort of critical thinking required to determine why that is eh? Most every variant of the locust on sarna sticks with a 160 rated engine in a 20 ton mech...so yes...its going to be slower than a 180 rated engine in another 20 ton mech. There are only two variants out of the more than dozen there which specifically identifies using a larger rating engine... one a 240XL and another a 280XL with masc. Both of which would break the inferior cryengine platform this game runs on.

[Ovion]

Dee Eight, on 15 October 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

And ignored any sort of critical thinking required to determine why that is eh? Most every variant of the locust on sarna sticks with a 160 rated engine in a 20 ton mech...so yes...its going to be slower than a 180 rated engine in another 20 ton mech. There are only two variants out of the more than dozen there which specifically identifies using a larger rating engine... one a 240XL and another a 280XL with masc. Both of which would break the inferior cryengine platform this game runs on.

Most built Locusts in MWO use an XL190 anyway, so that doesn't help you there tbh.

The MWO Locust can take a 100-190. It usually uses a 190, it goes 153.9 (165.44)
The Piranha will, with its 180 go the same speed as a Locust with a 180 though, at 145.8 (170.71)

I'm not sure if this helps, but you did ignore my post, which does have actual points and math in it too.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 October 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Quote.

Dee Eight, on 15 October 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

Quote.

1. I do not own a Locust, so I cannot experiment with it.

2. None of us own a Piranha, so none of us can experiment with that.

3. So it seems that the two of you are devoid of a couple things aside from basic manners.

Ovion, on 15 October 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Most built Locusts in MWO use an XL190 anyway, so that doesn't help you there tbh.

The MWO Locust can take a 100-190. It usually uses a 190, it goes 153.9 (165.44)

The Piranha will, with its 180 go the same speed as a Locust with a 180 though, at 145.8 (170.71)

I'm not sure if this helps, but you did ignore my post, which does have actual points and math in it too.

So a 180 on a Locust gives it 145.8, but a 190 gives it 153.9? Are you sure about those numbers? They seem a bit off to me. If it is not too much trouble, could you run those numbers again please? At any rate, thank you for replying to my observation with logic and class. It is refreshing.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 15 October 2017 - 07:02 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Ovion, on 15 October 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Most built Locusts in MWO use an XL190 anyway, so that doesn't help you there tbh.

The MWO Locust can take a 100-190. It usually uses a 190, it goes 153.9 (165.44)
The Piranha will, with its 180 go the same speed as a Locust with a 180 though, at 145.8 (170.71)

That DOESN'T MATTER. Unless you're deliberately trolling to make an apples vs oranges comparison.... what one 20 ton mech's top speed is with engine rating A, will be identical to another 20 ton mech's top speed also with engine rating A... because BOTH mechs (and every other mech in THIS game) use the same formula for calculating top speed. The only way to end up with a different result, is to change the rating of the engine in one of the two mechs, or add in the speed tweak skill nodes only on one of the two mechs.

Edited by Dee Eight, 15 October 2017 - 07:51 PM.