27 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

title kinda says it all, but all this balance talk. We know that clans run hotter and do better at longer range. Most maps are cool and are long range maps.. ERGO those mechs shine.

Why don't we have more maps that help the shorter ranged and cooler running mechs? More brawler based, and hotter. Even maps like terra and tourmaline while hot, all have major range advantages.

I guess what i am saying is i want hotter and shorter ranged maps and see what happens then. Very rugged terrain, city, or forest based maps could really work well to help those other mechs shine.

I also think maps with lots of over hanging things, like a factory, city with overhangs, or bridges that covered, or underground cavern to give the high mount mechs a disadvantage is also in order.


So basically the point of the thread isn't NERF everything.. Just make more maps that other types of mechs can shine.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 05 October 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

We know that clans run hotter

This is false, please stop spreading this myth.

Even for brawling, Clan assaults and heavies are at the top with IS having the best brawling lights/meds. However the soon to be Arctic Wolf may change the medium dominance the IS currently has.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 October 2017 - 09:27 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

This is false, please stop spreading this myth.

The whole mounting THIRTY heatsinks

25+ is very typical for Heavies, while my WubShee, with the 400XL, can mount 23 maximum (with a more fragile engine, a smaller alpha, and shorter range)

[Mole]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

This is false, please stop spreading this myth.

Pretty much. My Cougar, for example, can belch out 48 points of damage every time its weapons come off cooldown and practically never overheats. I can't say the same for even a sinlge one of my IS 'mechs.

[Bombast]

For reference...

Clan DHS Theoretical Max Capacity: 39 40 (Thanks Quicksilver Kalasa)
Mad Cat Mk-II

IS DHS Theoretical Max Capacity: 29
Zeus

If they released an IS Assault that could take a 400 rated Engine and was missing both hands, you could push the IS limit up to 30. And the Clan cap could be pushed up to 40 if they released a 100 tonner with a 400 cap and no extra actuators at all.

Edited by Bombast, 05 October 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bombast, on 05 October 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

If they released an IS Assault that could take a 400 rated Engine and was missing both hands, you could push the IS limit up to 30. And the Clan cap could be pushed up to 40 if they released a 100 tonner with a 400 cap and no extra actuators at all.

You can get 40 with the MCII you listed, just need to swap to a STD engine instead of the cXL: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c4cb9b3b785881

[Bombast]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

You can get 40 with the MCII you listed, just need to swap to a STD engine instead of the cXL: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c4cb9b3b785881

Whoops.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Something else to keep in mind, that despite Clan builds typically have more DHS, their weapons typically do the same damage per heat as IS as well which translates to larger alphas that can be fired consecutively and more sustained damage as well. This is why the MAD-IIC made the BLR-2C irrelevant outside of ERLL spam (the SVN saw to the removal of the ERLL BLR-2C).

[Athom83]

And don't forget the Night Gyr has LHS so even in those really hot maps it still runs far cooler than ANY IS mechs.

[JC Daxion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

This is false, please stop spreading this myth.

Even for brawling, Clan assaults and heavies are at the top with IS having the best brawling lights/meds. However the soon to be Arctic Wolf may change the medium dominance the IS currently has.

then why is it every time i drop with people that i know are good, say don't try to range Clan mechs, and get close where we have the advantage?

All my clan mechs run very hot.. my IS on the other hand many run much cooler. Am i just imaging this stuff?


Of course there are exceptions, but on average. That still doesn't negate the whole idea of the map's trying to make more mechs, or other mechs have an advantage.. aka Long range and high mounts doesn't trump everything.

Edited by JC Daxion, 05 October 2017 - 12:58 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 05 October 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

then why is it every time i drop with people that i know are good, say don't try to range Clan mechs, and get close where we have the advantage?

Cuz you have less chance of losing at shorter ranges where you aren't completely out-classed. Or the fact that many Clan players tend to gear more towards range than they probably should. Either way, it's really that simple.

JC Daxion, on 05 October 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

All my clan mechs run very hot.. my IS on the other hand many run much cooler. Am i just imaging this stuff?

Then either you don't have enough firepower on your IS mechs, or your building your Clan mechs wrong. Clan mechs are simply more heat efficient for the damage they do.

JC Daxion, on 05 October 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

Of course there are exceptions, but on average. That still doesn't negate the whole idea of the map's trying to make more mechs, or other mechs have an advantage.. aka Long range and high mounts doesn't trump everything.

We have at least one map where high mounts don't trump everything, and it's called Frozen. I'm not against making more like it so long as it doesn't have a stupid gully in between teams. Nor am I against an actual city map. HOWEVER, don't expect that to solve tech balance because quite frankly, it won't.

[Cloves]

JC Daxion, on 05 October 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

then why is it every time i drop with people that i know are good, say don't try to range Clan mechs, and get close where we have the advantage?

All my clan mechs run very hot.. my IS on the other hand many run much cooler. Am i just imaging this stuff?


Of course there are exceptions, but on average. That still doesn't negate the whole idea of the map's trying to make more mechs, or other mechs have an advantage.. aka Long range and high mounts doesn't trump everything.

Because most Clan damage is laser vomit, where they (before the tech update) had twice the optimal range for trading. So, yes if you trade at 600 meters, they are going to be much closer to optimal and you will be scratching paint on average. Telling someone that they are an idiot for fighting outside optimal will just upset them and cause them to deliberately keep doing it, telling them they can have an advantage leads them via self interest, basic human nature.

[El Bandito]

JC Daxion, on 05 October 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

then why is it every time i drop with people that i know are good, say don't try to range Clan mechs, and get close where we have the advantage?

Those people are right and wrong at the same time. Clans will still have the advantage even in short range fights, but IS has easier time at short range compared to long range. Becomes more prominent at higher skill level.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 October 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[MadRover]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

This is false, please stop spreading this myth.

Even for brawling, Clan assaults and heavies are at the top with IS having the best brawling lights/meds. However the soon to be Arctic Wolf may change the medium dominance the IS currently has.

The Arctic Wolf will imo because its made of nothing but splat. maybe a certain variant sticks out but the bushwhacker/assassin is going to have some competition.

[panzer1b]

My experience as of this moment is that the tech bases are reasonably balanced, with a couple exceptions (certain mechs, most recent being deathstrike which is OP as hell, scew the overall balance towards clans a bit, but even then its not a night/day difference).

The biggest issue is, the lack of any maps that truly favor brawling and dont lend themselves well to mid range poke builds. Clan is, regardless of beam durations and less focused damage, the king of mid range poking, and has the ability to outrange and outalfa IS unless we start talking about IS ERLLs which are superior up to ~800m past which they start loosing damage faster then clan ones. IS needs to get up close with SRMs/MRMs or use DPS weapons like cannons to take down clan reliably, taking advantage of their higher durability through quirks and such.

Anyways, i dont really see that big a tech base unbalance, IS is king of brawling (after cSPL died clan is at a severe disadvantage minus a couple niche mechs like linebacker or orion), clan is king of mid range poking (albeit IS can do it too but with less alfa strike and somewhat more focused damage), IS has better ERLLs (burn duration and ability to fire 3 at once), and clan wins at insanely long range with ac2s and ERPPCs. I dont see that as a big deal, just that the vast majority of maps tend to favor mid range poke (and thus clan tends to be a little bit dominant overall).

[Spheroid]

@Quicksilver: I think you are too focused on one Battlemaster-2C vs. one Supernova. The 265 ton drop deck means I can easily bring two Battlemasters and a Top Dog which is not a bad drop deck at all.

What are you going to switch to after the Supernova is finished? Multiple Hellbringer snipers with the F LT and a TC?

[Y E O N N E]

IS don't have better ERLL. It's a 5 damage difference between 2x cERLL and 3x ERLL; you are paying 7 more tons for that privilege. Clans bring so many DHS that firing 3x is negligible, and IS ERLL lose out dramatically in the most important stat: range.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MadRover, on 05 October 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

The Arctic Wolf will imo because its made of nothing but splat. maybe a certain variant sticks out but the bushwhacker/assassin is going to have some competition.

Being nothing but splat doesn't automatically make it better than the Assassin. The Assassin has the benefit of tight SRM spread and a great thin profile on top of good speed that all come together to make it what it is. Also, it has JJs as well which may keep it at worst a niche SRM brawler medium.

Spheroid, on 05 October 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

@Quicksilver: I think you are too focused on one Battlemaster-2C vs. one Supernova. The 265 ton drop deck means I can easily bring two Battlemasters and a Top Dog which is not a bad drop deck at all.

What are you going to switch to after the Supernova is finished? Multiple Hellbringer snipers with the F LT and a TC?

Using FW is a poor example for several reasons:

• It already concedes that for the tonnage, Clan is better.
  
• It is a borked game mode as outside of conquest, none of the other modes work well (Invasion is still one of the worst game modes in the game outside of Escort).
  
• Due to the fact that you can stack like mechs of like tonnage, you can do face rushes much more often than you could in normal or comp play due to the wider spread of weight classes.

[Mcgral18]

panzer1b, on 05 October 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

My experience as of this moment is that the tech bases are reasonably balanced, with a couple exceptions (certain mechs, most recent being deathstrike which is OP as hell, scew the overall balance towards clans a bit, but even then its not a night/day difference).

The biggest issue is, the lack of any maps that truly favor brawling and dont lend themselves well to mid range poke builds. Clan is, regardless of beam durations and less focused damage, the king of mid range poking, and has the ability to outrange and outalfa IS unless we start talking about IS ERLLs which are superior up to ~800m past which they start loosing damage faster then clan ones. IS needs to get up close with SRMs/MRMs or use DPS weapons like cannons to take down clan reliably, taking advantage of their higher durability through quirks and such.

Anyways, i dont really see that big a tech base unbalance, IS is king of brawling (after cSPL died clan is at a severe disadvantage minus a couple niche mechs like linebacker or orion), clan is king of mid range poking (albeit IS can do it too but with less alfa strike and somewhat more focused damage), IS has better ERLLs (burn duration and ability to fire 3 at once), and clan wins at insanely long range with ac2s and ERPPCs. I dont see that as a big deal, just that the vast majority of maps tend to favor mid range poke (and thus clan tends to be a little bit dominant overall).

Clams also have the best brawlers, BTW

HSLs and half weight MGs make them monsters at the sub 200M range
SRMs technically outrange that...but you can feel free to test that.

cSPL nerf did hurt, but there are shorter ranged, less efficient alternatives which are still superior to what the Sphere can bring.

[Khobai]

Quote

My experience as of this moment is that the tech bases are reasonably balanced

its better balanced than it used to be. but theres still 3 huge problems that need fixin':

CDHS >>> ISDHS (ISDHS take up 3 crit slots so they should be better than CDHS that only take up 2 crit slots)
CXL >> LFE >>> ISXL (CXL is still far superior to any of the engines IS can use)
CGauss >>> ISGauss (CGauss is a full 3 tons lighter with no appreciable downside, why?)

theres also the lesser, but not insignificant, issue of clan endo and clan ferro being better than IS endo and ferro despite the fact the IS versions take up more crit slots. More crit slots means the IS versions should be better. If you pay more you should get more.

although in fairness IS mechs do get much better quirks so that probably cancels out ONE of the problems listed above.

if PGI addressed 2 of the 4 problems listed above, and left IS quirks intact, the game would certainly be much better balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 05 October 2017 - 11:47 PM.