167 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

The Lighthouse, on 07 October 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Are they now? It's been so long since I stopped caring about TT.

The whole "Clan" thing was really a mistake in the first place. They are supposed to be just Lostech rediscovered, not a whole faction really.

True, that Lostech was Star League era stuff but during the initial playtesting campaigns the Clans were using Star League mechs and technology and were brought to a halt while using their Clan doctrines while most of the IS forces were still using 3025 mechs/techs. And we are talking about stock builds too.

[Ralgimanek]

Got some ideas to balance in here. I still like the core game rule that the Clans use 2 stars and not IS companies and lances. If you are going historical and not just balancing then go all the way.

[Andi Nagasia]

Raligmanek, on 07 October 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

Got some ideas to balance in here. I still like the core game rule that the Clans use 2 stars and not IS companies and lances. If you are going historical and not just balancing then go all the way.

are you referring to the 10vs12 concept?

[Nightbird]

Well, the question is always whether the spending from the lore purists will be replaced by spending by the non-lore purists isn't it?

If PGI wanted to, lore weapon and heat and range values can be preserved and still achieve balance on a 1:1 basis between Clan/IS by tweaking duration, cooldown/dps, HS/engine HS values, velocity, ghost heat link, jam chance/duration, and equipment hp values. Even a 15 vs 12 ton Gauss weight difference can easily be remedied with a 4.8s vs 6s cooldown difference. Even a 7 vs 5 damage ERML both at 5 heat can be remedied by 1.2s vs 0.6s duration AND 4s versus 2s cooldown.

Many have left because of decisions-to-date to leave lore and ignore FP development. Many have left because of balance failing to adequately account for tech differences. Go down the route of ignoring lore and it will not be Mechwarrior, just "Robotwarrior", and instead of IS versus Clan, it'll just be red versus blue. Deviating from the source material and homogenizing everything is not the answer. Just look at other popular games, the uniqueness and asymmetric balance is what keeps them interesting. Look at how they balance high damage with DPS, how tankiness is balanced with mobility. Hint: It is not making the stats the same. PGI has all the tools it needs without throwing out lore. We're not limited by the 'turn' in BT, we also have quirks already, make use of it.

Edited by Nightbird, 08 October 2017 - 10:14 AM.

[Kuaron]

STD need a buff, XL not so much.

[Mcgral18]

Kuaron, on 08 October 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

STD need a buff, XL not so much.

STD needs a buff

So does the isXL
Unless you want to nerf the cXL, but most argue that it should be the baseline

[Kuaron]

IS have quirks and stuff, buffing XL would damage the internal balancing of IS equipment.
Atm LFE made STDs mostly useless, I wouldn't like XL to outperform both.

[Tarl Cabot]

Kuaron, on 08 October 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

IS have quirks and stuff, buffing XL would damage the internal balancing of IS equipment.
Atm LFE made STDs mostly useless, I wouldn't like XL to outperform both.

How would buffing isXL damage the internal balancing of IS equipment? Majority of the quirks did not happen until Clans were added. Do not forget that Clan mechs have their own quirks still gaining others, as well as the new Skill Tree gave them "quirks" they may not have access to before. As for LFE making STD useless, and? STD is a carryover from the 3025 timeline in a game that does not have any sort of supply lines, factories, anything lore related where due to the inability to get one type of engine a player/unit are restricted to X-equipment. And so the need for the change falls in a few categories, primarily Faction Play, and one could say Competition matches, but mostly Faction Play where it is IS mechs vs Clan mechs, none of this IS vs IS prior to the 1 bucket where there was Liao+Marik+Davion, some Steiner+Marik and occasionally Kurita+Davion.

What is sad is that players from the Southern Houses had not really spoken out about the cXL-isXL lethal differences UNTIL PGI changed FP to its current one bucket with only Clan vs IS. So now they no longer had a choice on fighting other Houses instead of the Clans but faced only Clan mechs, if they decided to continue playing FP.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 October 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[Kuaron]

Tarl Cabot, on 08 October 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

How would buffing isXL damage the internal balancing of IS equipment?

LFE, STD...

[Mcgral18]

Kuaron, on 08 October 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

IS have quirks and stuff, buffing XL would damage the internal balancing of IS equipment.
Atm LFE made STDs mostly useless, I wouldn't like XL to outperform both.

No, that's a terrible thought

You BALANCE THE EQUIPMENT SO THEY DON'T NEED QUIRKS

I know, a novel idea. Quirks are arbitrary and affect only a select few robots adequately (see, only 2 Spheroid robots being used at MWOWC because of adequate quirks)

Make it so only the Terribad (of Sphere and Clam) need quirks, and powerful robots in their own right can compete with the Clams.

That's balance. Quirks are bandaids

[Kuaron]

Of course, if the goal is to get rid of quirks, you'll have to buff more equipment than only the STD engine.
But then it's not only XL, but also LFE and many weapons at the same point.

[Tarl Cabot]

Kuaron, on 08 October 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

LFE, STD...

And yet, for Clan battlemechs which have an option for Clan XL or STD, majority go with cXL yet you want to continue to hamstring IS forces, especially since PGI has not introduced fully functional engines crits that actual affects the mechs, though they have always noted it EACH TIME PGI gave the cXL first the heat penalty then the movement penalty then updating the heat penalty from its 20% to 40%... You appear to be stuck in the frame of thought as Russ and team.

The balancing act comes from the negative effects once there is damage.

isXL- 25% movement penalty / 40% heat penalty
LFE - 15% movement penalty / 20% heat penalty
STD - start with once a section is destroyed, incoming damage to that section (side torso or arm) is reduced by 75% instead of 50%, then if arm to ST to CT 75% > 87.5% damage transfer

cXL - 20% movement penalty / 30% heat penalty
STD - see above.

STD used for mechs that need those ST slots and/or low engine caps where LFE/XL would simply leave tonnage unused. LFE approximately the similar reasons and/or the player wants to minimize the penalties when he loses one side torso.

[Mcgral18]

Kuaron, on 08 October 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

Of course, if the goal is to get rid of quirks, you'll have to buff more equipment than only the STD engine.
But then it's not only XL, but also LFE and many weapons at the same point.

Yes, that's the point
ALL OF SPHERE TECH is rubbish in comparison

That's terrible balance on PGI's part
All of it needs to be fixed

[Kuaron]

I sure wouldn't mind if they did but why are we speaking of XLs here then?
Yes, when buffing most equipment, giving IS XLs ST structure would be a good choice. I even suggested it in an appropriate topic way back, long before futuretech became mewtech. But there the question was put differently.

[Kuaron]

@ Tarl:
Mechs with an engine cap that low that you have no choice but using STD engines have an entirely different problem than unbuffed XLs...

[MadRover]

Mcgral18, on 08 October 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yes, that's the point
ALL OF SPHERE TECH is rubbish in comparison

That's terrible balance on PGI's part
All of it needs to be fixed

Meh. It's not rubbish. Not if PGI wants to go with lore balancing which they still do. I'm waiting for PGI to come out and say that they admit they done messed up big and are preparing a good balancing over haul. Until then, balancing is as good as its going to get. Sometimes I do wish FASA were the balancing team and not PGI.

And yes I argued about this some posts ago. It's that I already know what PGI wants to do and there's no point trying if they ain't listening. Or waking up for it to matter. That waking up and entering our reality is what I want them to do.

[MischiefSC]

FASA balance was either A) to have Clans have the exact same tech as IS (all Star League era stuff) and then later, after the abortive failure that was the Clans release, to have universal mixed tech - IS mechs with CXL, CEndo, CFF and for example CERPPCs all made in the IS. Everyone all made the same stuff; there was unique to Clan and unique to IS tech but it was all comparable. All the stuff currently in use by the Clans in MWO was universally available to IS and Clan factions.

That's FASA balancing. BT 3057 was not balanced - it was unbalanced and an utter cluster that drove a ton of people away from the IP and spawned the fantasies of countless munchkins, gleefully clapping and saying 'Yay! A game where the lore says I'm SUPPOSED to have a huge advantage and the other side is REQUIRED to play at a disadvantage and die in droves to try and stop me! No no, I'm not being a simpering munchkin feeb who is terrified of having to win a game based on skill, I'm just playing to the LORE!'

I genuinely believe that if BT hadn't made the stupid mistake of IS/Clan bad balance at its release it would have remained a very popular IP and not niche; there's a ton of cool stuff in the lore and game concepts but the atrocious balance and the impact that had on the player base was toxic.

PGI needs to man up and fix it or admit they don't have the spine to do so for fear of the munchkin backlash. At least they put MW5 outside of that drama.

[Verilligo]

MischiefSC, on 09 October 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

FASA balance was either A) to have Clans have the exact same tech as IS (all Star League era stuff) and then later, after the abortive failure that was the Clans release, to have universal mixed tech - IS mechs with CXL, CEndo, CFF and for example CERPPCs all made in the IS. Everyone all made the same stuff; there was unique to Clan and unique to IS tech but it was all comparable. All the stuff currently in use by the Clans in MWO was universally available to IS and Clan factions.

That's FASA balancing. BT 3057 was not balanced - it was unbalanced and an utter cluster that drove a ton of people away from the IP and spawned the fantasies of countless munchkins, gleefully clapping and saying 'Yay! A game where the lore says I'm SUPPOSED to have a huge advantage and the other side is REQUIRED to play at a disadvantage and die in droves to try and stop me! No no, I'm not being a simpering munchkin feeb who is terrified of having to win a game based on skill, I'm just playing to the LORE!'

I genuinely believe that if BT hadn't made the stupid mistake of IS/Clan bad balance at its release it would have remained a very popular IP and not niche; there's a ton of cool stuff in the lore and game concepts but the atrocious balance and the impact that had on the player base was toxic.

PGI needs to man up and fix it or admit they don't have the spine to do so for fear of the munchkin backlash. At least they put MW5 outside of that drama.

Pretty much all of this exactly. The only reason the IS ever beat the Clans in lore is because writers effectively handwaved the entire thing into being. That's not to say they weren't clever about it, but it certainly had nothing to do with TT being balanced. The only way you could consider Clans balanced is if they were treated like some sort of D&D DM-only faction and restricted from player use.

[Y E O N N E]

MadRover, on 08 October 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

Until then, balancing is as good as its going to get.

False, it has already been better. It has degraded from that point.

[Nightbird]

Being the underdogs makes for a better story, SP game, TV show... but not a MP game.