73 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

There should be massive penalties for suiciding. Right now there doesn't appear to be any. You are penalized for team damage but not suicides.

[Athom83]

Escef, on 10 October 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Fusion engines don't cause the big boom you're looking for. In the even of a containment failure your reaction mass is just a few kilos of hydrogen and helium that will rapidly cool and shrink once it comes into contact with the reactor's inner walls. The inside of the reactor will likely be thoroughly f***ed, but unless something truly unusual happens you won't get the catastrophic detonation that we would all find gratifying... Unless Michael Bay and Michael Stackpole combine forces, then all bets are off.

Again as in other discussions of this mechanic; It isn't the reactor that goes boom but the rapid expansion of air caused by the quick inrush of said air before the reaction mass is able to be cooled by the super-cooled walls of the reactor combined which is basically a Criticality Accident.
-"Though dangerous and frequently lethal to humans within the immediate area, the critical mass formed would not be capable of producing a massive nuclear detonation of the type that fission bombs are designed to produce. This is because all the design features needed to make a nuclear warhead cannot arise by chance. In some cases, the heat released by the chain reaction will cause the fissile (and other nearby) materials to expand. In such cases, the chain reaction can either settle into a low power steady state or may even become either temporarily or permanently shut down (subcritical)."

Edit; BTW there are IRL examples of this mechanic. The SL-1 meltdown and Chernobyl. It would have been worse at Chernobyl if they didn't quickly tunnel under the reactor to remove the groundwater which would have resulted in an explosion that would have blanketed Europe with the fallout.

Edited by Athom83, 10 October 2017 - 09:05 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 10 October 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

There should be massive penalties for suiciding. Right now there doesn't appear to be any. You are penalized for team damage but not suicides.

Except you are penalised for suicides, just like team damage.

[Jun Watarase]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

Except you are penalised for suicides, just like team damage.

I didnt see any penalty to c-bills on my end of battle screen. Whats the penalty?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 10 October 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

I didnt see any penalty to c-bills on my end of battle screen. Whats the penalty?

Ban timers, I get one if I manage 2 suicides in a row.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Flamer-caused overheat damage counting as dealt damage and suicide caused by flamers counting as the kill - yes.

Suicide as kill by default? Heck no. This is what makes stomps less painful on the receiving end, an option to die hard fighting. Try that and you'll see poeple just running out of bounds.

[Escef]

Athom83, on 10 October 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Again as in other discussions of this mechanic; It isn't the reactor that goes boom but the rapid expansion of air caused by the quick inrush of said air before the reaction mass is able to be cooled by the super-cooled walls of the reactor combined which is basically a Criticality Accident.

That, of course, assumes the reaction chamber is breached. Going back to the game's source material, it's almost impossible to overheat a reactor to the point that it ruptures (the table top heat scale gives penalties for movement, weapons accuracy, possible pilot damage if life support was compromised, and everyone's favorite: cooking off your ammo), and even in the event of the reaction chamber being compromised, you're more likely to see a venting of plasma/fire from outside atmosphere rushing in, getting superheated, and expanding outwards. This last possibility might put sufficient stress on the remains of a severely damaged mech to blow it apart, but is still unlikely to produce a massive Bay/Stackpole-style detonation.

[Kaeb Odellas]

The reason people want to award kills for suicides is not to discourage overheat suicides as a whole. They happen as a natural result of the game. The reason is to discourage spiteful and unsportsmanlike conduct, where a player in a hopeless position wants to deny his opponent credit (and C-Bills) for destroying him by doing the job himself.

Athom83, on 10 October 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

Not at all equivalent. The guy who blew himself up was probably being shot at by 3 or more enemy mechs, and the 4th guy who managed a single medium laser shot to his leg milliseconds before he blew up should get the "kill"? That would increase toxicity in game greatly. It would be better if suicides would remain as suicides.

And she was an heartless ***hole and deserved that punishment. Not at all relating to the game however and is not an accurate description of what you think it is.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying "most recent hit on the suiciding mech gets the kill". I'm saying "Last guy the suiciding mech shot at before he exploded gets the kill".

In both instances scenarios (mech suicide vs. boyfriend suicide), the instigators used different methods, but had the same desired end states. The mech pilot wanted the other mech destroyed. The girlfriend wanted the boyfriend dead. The mech pilot used the threat of looming destruction backed by heavy firepower to prompt his target to self-destruct in a desperate attempt to avoid said destruction. The girlfriend used abusive text messages to get her boyfriend to kill himself.

A crass comparison it may be, but if the girlfriend got credit for the kill, why not the mech pilot?

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 10 October 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I feel like if you were pressuring that guy enough that he wanted to risk blowing himself up to get rid of you, you basically killed him.

and if thats always why people suicided that might make sense

a lot of the time suicides are accidental. not deliberate spiteful acts.

you cant treat all suicides like they were deliberate, because theyre not. which is why you cant award killshots for them.

Quote

The reason is to discourage spiteful and unsportsmanlike conduct, where a player in a hopeless position wants to deny his opponent credit (and C-Bills) for destroying him by doing the job himself.

why would you want to discourage that anyway? thats what makes suiciding awesome. Its like giving your opponent one final middle finger before you go out.

its definitely spiteful. thats the whole point. but thats not unsportsmanlike because you still died while helping your team to the best of your ability.

unsportsmanlike would be suiciding by running out of bounds. thats unsportsmanlike.

so no, suicides should not count as killshots. if I suicided before you could kill me, it means im better than you. and you should taste the bitter disappointment of having one less kill because you werent quick enough.

Edited by Khobai, 10 October 2017 - 09:35 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 10 October 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

Suicide as kill by default? Heck no. This is what makes stomps less painful on the receiving end, an option to die hard fighting. Try that and you'll see poeple just running out of bounds.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Why is a stomp any less painful if you blow up after overriding than if the enemy kills you? The end result is the same. You have lost. The enemy has won.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Khobai, on 10 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

and if thats always why people suicided that might make sense

but sometimes people just suicide for no apparent reason

That's why you should credit the target of the overheated mech on overheat deaths. In that specific instance, there intent of the overheated mech is pretty clearly "make a last-ditch effort to destroy this guy", which is a valid intent. If a dude overheats to death or dies out of bounds with no one around to shoot at, then it's clearly a spiteful "screw you" move that should be punished.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Remember... Only you can say no to Stackpoling!

[The Lurm Wurm]

If I'm surrounded by five enemy 'mechs and sitting at 90% heat with cherry red torsos, firing that last alpha and melting down is not "spiteful". It's sound tactics. I'm dead in the next second anyway, it would be foolish to give up that last bit of damage so that I can die from an enemy shot instead of a reactor meltdown.

[Jun Watarase]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

Ban timers, I get one if I manage 2 suicides in a row.

Nobody cares about a 10 second timeout...

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 10 October 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about a 10 second timeout...

And nobody cares about 1,000 less C-Bills for team damage, what's your point?

[Escef]

Jun Watarase, on 10 October 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about a 10 second timeout...

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

And nobody cares about 1,000 less C-Bills for team damage, what's your point?

And yet we've seen people come onto these forums and whine about a 2 minute timeout. Two. Flipping. Minutes. I'm like, WTF? Go make a Hot Pocket, BAM! Your 2 minutes are up. I swear, sometimes this community amazes me, and often not in a good way.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

I don't understand what you're saying here. Why is a stomp any less painful if you blow up after overriding than if the enemy kills you? The end result is the same. You have lost. The enemy has won.

Problem with stomps is helplessness, especially when your team just folds around you and you know you're dead anyway and no amount of skill will prevent that. Being a free kill is no fun. It is however soothing then to just press override and jump the enemy guns blazing. The fact that you don't need to worry about heat anymore levels the field a little bit and gives you a chance to get that last kill before you go down. Or at least deny them the free kill. It gives a bit of power back into your hands.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 10 October 2017 - 10:00 AM.

[R0gal D0rn]

Overheating has a clear and automatic penalty: You die. Period.
And suicide deaths count as deaths in your K/D ratio...

So you want a doble penalty for those players surrounded by an specially incompetent team, and left alone against half the enemy team. (EHEm, well sometimes it´s not the case, but...)
No, better, you want a special bonus for flamers.
Or another reason for people not choosing the hot maps...

Overheating suicide is almost never intentional. In fact you want to live enough to shoot another evil alpha. To make someone overheat isn´t without reward, you eliminate a player, and get the KMMD is you deserve it...
But got a free kill atribution against someone who just tried to shoot his last bullet?

Seriously, better become faster in kill people...

[Bombast]

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 10 October 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

So you want a doble penalty for those players surrounded by an specially incompetent team...

Why is it a penalty to give the enemy that forced you to kill yourself credit?

[Kaeb Odellas]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 10 October 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Problem with stomps is helplessness, especially when your team just folds around you and you know you're dead anyway and no amount of skill will prevent that. Being a free kill is no fun. It is however soothing then to just press override and jump the enemy guns blazing. The fact that you don't need to worry about heat anymore levels the field a little bit and gives you a chance to get that last kill before you go down. Or at least deny them the free kill. It gives a bit of power back into your hands.

Why hate your opponent for doing what they're supposed to be doing? They won the game fair and square? Why deprive them of the C-Bills and XP reward for taking you down? It's needlessly spiteful.