73 replies to this topic

[R0gal D0rn]

Bombast, on 10 October 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Why is it a penalty to give the enemy that forced you to kill yourself credit?

Because The possibility to lose the kill is precisely what makes the enemy take risks to get it quickly. And makes the risk interesting for the last man standing. You reduce a lot the odds to get a last second kill if the attacking team hasn´t a reason for creed XD

[Kaeb Odellas]

Khobai, on 10 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

and if thats always why people suicided that might make sense

a lot of the time suicides are accidental. not deliberate spiteful acts.

you cant treat all suicides like they were deliberate, because theyre not. which is why you cant award killshots for them.

Killing yourself is almost never accident. It's either the bad result of a calculated risk, or a deliberate attempt to deny the enemy a kill.

About the only suicide I'd consider accidental is a bad arty drop due to invisible terrain. That might be valid.

Khobai, on 10 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

why would you want to discourage that anyway? thats what makes suiciding awesome. Its like giving your opponent one final middle finger before you go out.

its definitely spiteful. thats the whole point. but thats not unsportsmanlike because you still died while helping your team to the best of your ability.

unsportsmanlike would be suiciding by running out of bounds. thats unsportsmanlike.

so no, suicides should not count as killshots. if I suicided before you could kill me, it means im better than you. and you should taste the bitter disappointment of having one less kill because you werent quick enough.

What on earth are you talking about? Killing yourself before the enemy does doesn't make you better than the enemy. That's utterly insane.

Sometimes it just comes down to timing and math. Am I somehow less skilled because I need 2 alphas to kill you and you blow yourself up before my weapons cool down?

[Bombast]

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 10 October 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Because The possibility to lose the kill is precisely what makes the enemy take risks to get it quickly. And makes the risk interesting for the last man standing. You reduce a lot the odds to get a last second kill if the attacking team hasn´t a reason for creed XD

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

EDIT: Wait, are you saying people rush mechs to beat the suicide? Even if true, that is in no way a penalty to the suicider.

Edited by Bombast, 10 October 2017 - 10:49 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Here is what I'm proposing:

-If you override a shutdown and blow up from shooting at an enemy mech too much, point goes to the guy you tried to kill. No suicide penalty. Reasoning: He's the one you thought it important enough to risk overheat death to destroy. He's the reason you're dead.

-If you override a shutdown and blow up from shooting a valid objective item (generator, base building, VIP, turret), kill goes to whoever did the most internal damage to whatever component blew up that killed you, and if no one damaged that component, point goes to whoever did the most damage to you. No suicide penalty. Reasoning: If he hadn't damaged that component, you might have survived.

-If you run out of bounds while fighting an enemy and die, kill goes to whoever you did the most damage to while out of bounds. No suicide penalty. Reasoning: If the enemy has you so distracted that you don't notice you're out of bounds, he basically killed you. Also, if both of you die from going out of bounds, you also get the kill for getting him to chase you.

-If you blow yourself with an air strike or artillery strike, kill goes to whoever did the most damage to you in the 10 seconds before you dropped the strike. No suicide penalty as long as the enemy was within a couple hundred meters of the smoke. Reasoning: If they forced you to drop an arty on yourself to try to get rid of them and it kills you, they're the reason you're dead.

-If you overheat, run out of bounds, or call a strike on yourself with no one around to justify why you did that, you get full suicide penalties and no one gets the kill award. Reasoning: If you kill yourself with no one around to present a threat, that's just a plain suicide.

Here is what I'm proposing:

-If you override a shutdown and blow up from shooting at an enemy mech too much, point goes to the guy you tried to kill. No suicide penalty. Reasoning: He's the one you thought it important enough to risk overheat death to destroy. He's the reason you're dead.

-If you override a shutdown and blow up from shooting a valid objective item (generator, base building, VIP, turret), kill goes to whoever did the most internal damage to whatever component blew up that killed you, and if no one damaged that component, point goes to whoever did the most damage to you. No suicide penalty. Reasoning: If he hadn't damaged that component, you might have survived.

-If you run out of bounds while fighting an enemy and die, kill goes to whoever you did the most damage to while out of bounds. No suicide penalty. Reasoning: If the enemy has you so distracted that you don't notice you're out of bounds, he basically killed you. Also, if both of you die from going out of bounds, you also get the kill for getting him to chase you.

-If you blow yourself with an air strike or artillery strike, kill goes to whoever did the most damage to you in the 10 seconds before you dropped the strike. No suicide penalty as long as the enemy was within a couple hundred meters of the smoke. Reasoning: If they forced you to drop an arty on yourself to try to get rid of them and it kills you, they're the reason you're dead.

-If you overheat, run out of bounds, or call a strike on yourself with no one around to justify why you did that, you get full suicide penalties and no one gets the kill award.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Tirant Lo Blanc, on 10 October 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

Overheating has a clear and automatic penalty: You die. Period.
And suicide deaths count as deaths in your K/D ratio...

So you want a doble penalty for those players surrounded by an specially incompetent team, and left alone against half the enemy team. (EHEm, well sometimes it´s not the case, but...)
No, better, you want a special bonus for flamers.
Or another reason for people not choosing the hot maps...

Overheating suicide is almost never intentional. In fact you want to live enough to shoot another evil alpha. To make someone overheat isn´t without reward, you eliminate a player, and get the KMMD is you deserve it...
But got a free kill atribution against someone who just tried to shoot his last bullet?

Seriously, better become faster in kill people...

Dying isn't necessarily the goal of an override, but it's a risk you accept when you hit that button.

Also, it's not a matter of skill in killing people faster. Sometimes it comes down to random chance. If I land a full alpha into your CT and bring it down to 1 hp, and then random overheat damage ticks it down to 0, is it because of my lack of skill? Would I have been more skilled if I waited a second longer for you to take more overheat damage, when I have no idea what your level of heat is and no way to predict what components will take overheat damage and when?

[James Argent]

This is dumb. Either you killed him or you didn't. I don't care about proximate causes...did he die from one of your shots or from one of his? If it's yours, you get the kill. If it's his, nobody does. None of this, 'but my butterfly's wings caused a chain reaction halfway across the battlefield' junk, or else we'll be granting a kill to the guy who legs a light in addition to the one who is only now able to destroy it because it can't dodge anymore.

I don't want there to be any more excuses than there already are for people not fighting their hardest. Going out in a (literal) blaze of glory is one way people have of salvaging something from a bad situation. Don't remove any in-game meaning from that and keep your kill stats without asterisks.

[Natred]

The Basilisk, on 10 October 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Why ?
Is it because you want to pad your stats more or because you fear for your leaderboard position or whats your agenda here ?


Usualy its the last mech standing that engages override and trys to take at least someone with him and that is just fair.

Stat padding? So you looked at my stats? I am bring a valid point to something that pgi possibly may have overlooked in the development process. If anything my stats are fine, I am trying to help others honestly. Heck from all my games where I had someone with cherry red open ct cook themselves in my cross hairs I would have even better stats.. so would everyone else.

I risk my life every day working on commercial doors. Being fearful of something digital is a joke. Lol

Edited by Natred, 10 October 2017 - 11:12 AM.

[Natred]

Bombast, on 10 October 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

Yeah, I can see that. Maybe not 'Most Damage' though. I'd say the game should track how much damage was done, by who, 5-10 seconds before the suicide, and if it's over a certain threshold, it should determine that person 'pushed' the suicide and earned the kill.

Flamer heat damage should be tracked as well, of course, and count for more than regular damage.

For once bombast agrees with me.. holy mackeral did not know that is possible.

James you can still go out in a blaze of glory.. the credit for your demise would be given appropriately.

Edited by Natred, 10 October 2017 - 11:15 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

James Argent, on 10 October 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

This is dumb. Either you killed him or you didn't. I don't care about proximate causes...did he die from one of your shots or from one of his? If it's yours, you get the kill. If it's his, nobody does. None of this, 'but my butterfly's wings caused a chain reaction halfway across the battlefield' junk, or else we'll be granting a kill to the guy who legs a light in addition to the one who is only now able to destroy it because it can't dodge anymore.

I don't want there to be any more excuses than there already are for people not fighting their hardest. Going out in a (literal) blaze of glory is one way people have of salvaging something from a bad situation. Don't remove any in-game meaning from that and keep your kill stats without asterisks.

Don't try to slippery-slope this. You know that's not a real argument.

I want to know why you think this is an excuse for "people not fighting their hardest." I'd also be curious to know what you think current excuses are for lazy players. And how would this diminish any meaning for people hitting O and going all in for a last-ditch attack?

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 10 October 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[panzer1b]

Im prolly one that plain doesnt care (as i dont play this game to pad my stats or even care about stats), but i would support having suicide go to the guy that got a KMDD on you.

Also, im prolly a bad person since i will hit override and melt myself more often then not when i know its an unwinnable situation. That said, ive had many games where i hit override and actually killed someone just as i melted alive, and in that situation its a good trade, i know im going down (cause im say last guy alive or something getting shot by 2+ targets), throttling my fire means i have no way of killing even 1 guy, override and spam, there is at least a chance ill drag someone down with me. Most recent situation like that was on sulfurous, where i was like one of 3 guys left attacking on a wave, and fresh mauler charged at me. I overrode and focused 100% of my fire on his CT, killed him and exploded half a second afterwards...

[Kroete]

If my dead is sure, i will override and try to take one with me or at least cipple or damage an enemy for easier killing from my allys.

[Mole]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 October 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Why hate your opponent for doing what they're supposed to be doing? They won the game fair and square? Why deprive them of the C-Bills and XP reward for taking you down? It's needlessly spiteful.

I don't know about that guy but I usually do this when it appears all hope is lost in a last ditch attempt to drag somebody kicking and screaming into hell with me. I'm not really trying to deny the enemy the kill as much as I am just trying to inflict as much damage as possible before going down. Sometimes this results in a suicide. Sometimes it doesn't. Death is the end result, either way, but hopefully that bit of override allowed me to take someone down before my reactor blew.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mole, on 10 October 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

I don't know about that guy but I usually do this when it appears all hope is lost in a last ditch attempt to drag somebody kicking and screaming into hell with me. I'm not really trying to deny the enemy the kill as much as I am just trying to inflict as much damage as possible before going down. Sometimes this results in a suicide. Sometimes it doesn't. Death is the end result, either way, but hopefully that bit of override allowed me to take someone down before my reactor blew.

That's fine and all, but do not you think that guy should get some credit for your death if your last-ditch effort caused you to blow yourself up? After all, it was his presence that caused you to mash the override key.

[DAYLEET]

Khobai, on 10 October 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

that makes no sense at all

if anyone should get credit for the kill, it should be whoever did the most damage to them

it should still count as a KMDD. because they still died and you did the most damage to them.

but no one should get killshot credit, because there was no killshot, it was a suicide

the point of rewarding killshots is that you actually killed someone, if you didnt kill them before they suicided, its not a killshot.

The kill is already given to the guy that did the last point of damage so why not credit the last guy hitting an overheat?

Pilots get credited a kill if their targets crash on the ground. This is the same.

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 October 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

The reason people want to award kills for suicides is not to discourage overheat suicides as a whole. They happen as a natural result of the game. The reason is to discourage spiteful and unsportsmanlike conduct, where a player in a hopeless position wants to deny his opponent credit (and C-Bills) for destroying him by doing the job himself.

I think its just logical to give the kill to the last hitting guy. No need to dig deeper than that.

Natred, on 10 October 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

I risk my life every day working on commercial doors. Being fearful of something digital is a joke. Lol

I have developed a strat for doors. When you pull the handle, you step to the opposite side so the door dont angrily hit you in the face.

Edited by DAYLEET, 10 October 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[TWIAFU]

Jun Watarase, on 10 October 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

There should be massive penalties for suiciding. Right now there doesn't appear to be any. You are penalized for team damage but not suicides.

Suicide should be the same as a Team Kill.

[Athom83]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 October 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Remember... Only you can say no to Stackpoling!

But what if I say "yes"? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 October 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Why hate your opponent for doing what they're supposed to be doing? They won the game fair and square? Why deprive them of the C-Bills and XP reward for taking you down? It's needlessly spiteful.

Yeah, great argument. Next time my team is falling like leaves around me, I'm just gonna go afk and make myself some coffee to not disrupt the enemy team from getting their hard earned C-Bills and XP rewards from my soon-to-be smoking corpse.

And no, there is no hate in it, no more than in those enemies who happened to be on the stomping team and happily ripped to shreds a bunch of noobs who didn't even knew how to shoot straight and never stood a chance.

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 October 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

That's fine and all, but do not you think that guy should get some credit for your death if your last-ditch effort caused you to blow yourself up? After all, it was his presence that caused you to mash the override key.

You seem very symphatetic towards the people on the winning team, not so much for those on the loosing one. It's ok and fair for me to end up a meat to be grinded because my team died like flies? Then it's also fair for you to get the kill only if you can secure it. You didn't kill me, you don't get the kill. Nuff said. You want that kill, earn it. And don't play innocent victim because you were on the winning side and couldn't kill stuff. You pretty much CAN kill an overheating mech, if you can't do it, git gud

--
This game is very lopsided. It's totally a team-based game, but still 90% of matches are pug matches with random people and random amount or lack of teamwork. Stomps happen all the time, also as a consequence of the game mechanics. There is no "leveling factors" that would make the battles more equal, quite the opposite - some 2 assaults from your team decided to run straight into the enemy formation - you probably already lost, even though the remaining 10 people on your team didn't even got the chance to engage the enemy. No respawns or healing or anything to prevent the game from becoming a stomp from that moment. That last effort you can do with overheating while jumping the enemy team as the last man standing is that only little balancing factor we got in this game when a stomp occurs. You still can kill something and NOT get killed in return.

[Nameless King]

Natred, on 10 October 2017 - 04:53 AM, said:

Suicides should count as a kill, either for the person who last damaged them or the one who did the most damage to them before they cooked themseleves. Usually see atleast one or two a game and thought it was strange this was not a thing. Thoughts?

Kills mean nothing so who cares.

[Dee Eight]

It already counts for KMDDs and kill assists.

[gooddragon2]

I think you should get kill assist if you didn't already and a special category of kill for the one who dealt most damage. Not full value because you didn't kill it, but like 90% of the value. Also, there should be a special option to set your mech to detonate if you want to (probably because you have no weapons left). This should also happen if you die from overheat. Probably have it deal damage based on your mech's reactor (basically the engine).