103 replies to this topic

[Sable]

I don't understand the big deal about the deathstrike. Even with 6 medium lasers and duel gauss it still runs super hot. The deathstrike is like the 4th most effective madcat mkII in my opinion. You can get so much more damage out of better mixed builds especially with ATMs. I've always felt the deathstrike was mediocre in comparison. It doesn't hold up to the other mkII's

[Mcgral18]

Sable, on 10 October 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I don't understand the big deal about the deathstrike. Even with 6 medium lasers and duel gauss it still runs super hot. The deathstrike is like the 4th most effective madcat mkII in my opinion. You can get so much more damage out of better mixed builds especially with ATMs. I've always felt the deathstrike was mediocre in comparison. It doesn't hold up to the other mkII's

...ATMs
...Effective



I've found the issue in your opinion
It doesn't have a 80-94 damage pinpoint LOLpha

[Bud Crue]

Sable, on 10 October 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I don't understand the big deal about the deathstrike. Even with 6 medium lasers and duel gauss it still runs super hot. The deathstrike is like the 4th most effective madcat mkII in my opinion. You can get so much more damage out of better mixed builds especially with ATMs. I've always felt the deathstrike was mediocre in comparison. It doesn't hold up to the other mkII's

Um...would you be so kind as to post the three builds you find to be more effective than the Deathstrike? I for one would LOVE to know how to make any of my non hero MK-IIs more effective than the Deathstrike (and if your list includes the Scorch build, well, then...never mind).

[Snowbluff]

Bud Crue, on 10 October 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Um...would you be so kind as to post the three builds you find to be more effective than the Deathstrike? I for one would LOVE to know how to make any of my non hero MK-IIs more effective than the Deathstrike (and if your list includes the Scorch build, well, then...never mind).

I think it can be on par, for one El Bandito has settled on a ERLL +2 ERML on each side (because of heat on HLL and ERML was excessive). Last time I checked, hat's the same damage as 1 HLL and 1 ERML. It won't be quite as good, but it weighs 2 tons less.

Personally I use 2 Gauss 4 ERML and 2 ATM6 on my MCII-1, but I got a few good numbers doing a lasers and gauss.

[justcallme A S H]

Sable, on 10 October 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I don't understand the big deal about the deathstrike. Even with 6 medium lasers and duel gauss it still runs super hot. The deathstrike is like the 4th most effective madcat mkII in my opinion. You can get so much more damage out of better mixed builds especially with ATMs. I've always felt the deathstrike was mediocre in comparison. It doesn't hold up to the other mkII's

You're kidding right? 6cERML/Gauss runs hot? You cannot get more effective damage than a 70pt+ alpha in 1.1 seconds. If you can't manage the heat in it... Well... I don't need to say it.

The Deathstrike is hands down the best Assault mech in the game right now. It's not even a debate.

It is absolutely Pay2Win and I'm laughing all the way home that I got one free as my MWOOC2016 prize pool. Lord knows I'm not handing over another cent when balance/clan power-creep just moves further apart with each new mech release designed to keep the cash rolling in.

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

...ATMs
...Effective

I've found the issue in your opinion
It doesn't have a 80-94 damage pinpoint LOLpha

Another prime example of what PSR is so, so broken.

If I have anything under a 1,000dmg QP game / 2-4 kills in a Deathstrike, I count it as a bad game. That's just how OP the mech is... And nerfing the mech mobility wise ones the MKIICs are cbills, will not be the answer. It's the bloody weapons and cXL that are the imbalance.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 10 October 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Snowbluff, on 10 October 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

I think it can be on par, for one El Bandito has settled on a ERLL +2 ERML on each side (because of heat on HLL and ERML was excessive). Last time I checked, hat's the same damage as 1 HLL and 1 ERML. It won't be quite as good, but it weighs 2 tons less.

Personally I use 2 Gauss 4 ERML and 2 ATM6 on my MCII-1, but I got a few good numbers doing a lasers and gauss.

Yeah, I'm doing 2 Gauss a 2HLL and an 2ERML on one of mine and it is great (compared to anything remotely similar on the IS side, but I can't make mixed SRMS work nearly as well as the alpha and one two punch I can do with energy and gauss alone...especially at range. I tried 4 ATM12s and 4ERML and then dropped the ATMs to 9s and well, I hated it so much that I even turned it into the scorch build (which looks so ridiculous that I have only played it once). My other one is just 2LPLs and 2 UAC10s and I've had a couple of amazing games with it and the rest have been tantamount to suicide I died so quick (I just don't know what to do with it). So yeah, gauss vomit is the way to go,and I say that as a terribad with aiming problems; and the Deathstrike does gauss vomit better than any mech I am aware of.

[Damnedtroll]

CLan are more powerful for equal tonnage, it's like the light mech are medium and heavy are assault...

On TT to field one star ( 5 mech) against two lances ( 8 mech ) would be practically a disgrace for a clan mechwarrior because it's mainly equal on firepower. Clan want always to bid less for honor.

n FW 2 star against three lances with equal drop deck tonnage would be possible with unnerfed clan gun, like the 15 damage erppc and higher range for the pulse laser.

But the maps bring the difference of firepower down, it's easy to close range and IS higher tonnage right now help a lot to bring them a little bit on the same level.

Would be a lot better to have something like a battle value for the battlemech to have dropdeck based on quality of the mecha and not a quantity in tonnage.

For quick play... setting a drop battle value per team could be interesting, better than the tier thing that mean nothing.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 10 October 2017 - 02:55 PM.

[SeventhSL]

Great comparison but unfortunately they are both 90 ton Mechs and FW gives IS a 5 ton advantage per Mech. How does it go if you compare the MAL to say the War Hawk?

[justcallme A S H]

The game is not balanced around Faction Play.

[H I A S]

SeventhSL, on 10 October 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Great comparison but unfortunately they are both 90 ton Mechs and FW gives IS a 5 ton advantage per Mech. How does it go if you compare the MAL to say the War Hawk?

The difference of dropdeck tonnage is only because tech inbalance.

[Grus]

I like the 4erll and 2 gauss MKII myself. I won't buy the D'S because, well money..

[SeventhSL]

H I A S, on 10 October 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

The difference of dropdeck tonnage is only because tech inbalance.

Correct, which is why a fair comparison should include it as it is part of the balance mechanism.

Edited by SeventhSL, 10 October 2017 - 03:20 PM.

[Mcgral18]

SeventhSL, on 10 October 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

Correct, which is why a fair comparison should include it as it is part of the balance mechanism.

No, it's a result of the imbalance

It is not typical
It doesn't show up in Comp queue, or PUG LIFE


Balance the robots, and suddenly it's not necessary anymore.

[Jay Leon Hart]

SeventhSL, on 10 October 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Great comparison but unfortunately they are both 90 ton Mechs and FW gives IS a 5 ton advantage per Mech. How does it go if you compare the MAL to say the War Hawk?

Ok then...

4x ERPPC WHK
Vs
4x ERPPC MAL
Vs
4x HPPC MAL

4x LPL WHK
Vs
4x LPL MAL

Look like the WHK is faster, with better damage, better range and runs cooler with PPCs.

[SeventhSL]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Ok then...

4x ERPPC WHK
Vs
4x ERPPC MAL
Vs
4x HPPC MAL

4x LPL WHK
Vs
4x LPL MAL

Look like the WHK is faster, with better damage, better range and runs cooler with PPCs.

Now that's what I'm looking for. Thank you.

[justcallme A S H]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

No, it's a result of the imbalance

It is not typical
It doesn't show up in Comp queue, or PUG LIFE


Balance the robots, and suddenly it's not necessary anymore.

Exactly. The tonnage is only there because of the imbalance that exists. And since stupid-tree, honestly, the gap is even larger. IS needs another 5T, not even kidding.

The problem is though balancing by tonnage is just a band-aid level fix. It's the wrong way to do it, doesn't fix the core problems etc.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Well done in explaining how large the tech imbalance between IS and Clan is. Too bad PGI is very blind on this eye

It's almost as if PGI attempted to balance two deliberately imbalanced tech trees as equal 1:1 tonnage for some reason related to selling $500 gold robot packs.

The WoW player in me looks at that and wonders how anyone thought putting T4's into a match with T9s would ever work out well.

[panzer1b]

I currently run the MCII-1 with 2GR 2HLL and 2ERML and it just murders people all day (provided i dont make a stupid positioning error or get left behind and rapped by light mechs). Its not my most consistent QP mech (HBR gets that since its super fast and ECM in QP is alot better then in FW or higher level play), but its pretty much near the top, and if i could get a teeny bit more alfa out of it (80 is the max practical alfa you can get out of the non p2w model), im pretty sure itd become handsdown the best mech i had access to.

Also, while i do have other models, have fun in them, and do really well with things like ATM vomit builds (one of mine is setup with 2ATM12, 2HLL, 2ERML), none of these are super reliable nor do they work well against super skilled players as ATMs are all but useless if the enemy understands how they work and either stays outside of death range, or bum rushes you to make them useless. In other words, you are either running gauss vomit, gauss+ppc (which is still useable, just sucks that you cant just poke alfa and hide, you need to do PPCs then charge gauss and fire later), or the scorch builds which are still arguably better on the scorch (2GR 4 ASRM6, yeah normal people rur LBX20s but i just hate those guns).

Also, asymetric balance is perfectly fine, it just needs to be done so that clan cant run around with 90+ alfa strike at mid range without even suffering DPS issues (you get over 8 sustained DPS with the 94 alfa edition and a XL360 engine onboard). Essentially, it can outtrade ANYTHING, and it can still stand up to a push a little bit. That said, its ONLY an issue on teh deathstrike, gauss vomit may be strong on many other mechs, but they cant really do dual gauss, and they cant have alfa strikes in excess of 90 either (dire is an exception, but between the agility AND the atrocious hardpoints and hitboxes, its fair here).

You can do many things, but i think the only way to truly solve the problem is to set a sort of maximum alfa strike of ~50-60, and anything above that regardless of weapon combos or how its achieved incurs steep heat penalties. That way, gauss vomit on heavys is fine (as it has always been), but it doesnt go from good to OP when you stick it in an assault that can now outtrade anything, all with 100% pinpoint damage too which means you cant even spread that damage easily.

Edited by panzer1b, 10 October 2017 - 04:23 PM.

[Mechrophilia]

To me, the MWO world championships showed inarguably just how bad the disparity is. ...Which still has me scratching my head about IS nerfs like the large pulse. I was truly puzzled by that one.

[SeventhSL]

Mechrophilia, on 10 October 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

To me, the MWO world championships showed inarguably just how bad the disparity is. ...Which still has me scratching my head about IS nerfs like the large pulse. I was truly puzzled by that one.

It is an excellent indicator but again it isn't the full story. We saw above how the comparison of the MAL is a lot closer to balanced when the 5 ton advantage is added. Now how did IS mechs get their 5 ton advantage in the worlds?

Triggered: The above probably triggered a lot of people so let me explain. I'm not saying there isn't tech imbalance. There is and if we want aysymetrical balance there should be. I'm not saying Clan doesn't have inherent advantages over IS. It does. Look at the high alpha, poke, NASCAR meta. It all favours the Clan tech base and play style. I am simply saying that unless we want symmetrical balance then it is time to look past the Tech base and start to look at flawed game mechanics. E.G. The idea of balancing based on tonnage or Class.