103 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

It will be nowhere near as good as the original. For comparison, here is a typical DS build with Clan tech.




And here is where I tried to do the same build with IS tech on a Mauler-2P before running out of tonnage. Just imagine the ballistic are on the arms and the energy points are on torso and they are all as high mounted as DS.




As you can see, with IS tech this IS version of DS doesn't even have any tonnage for heatsinks, and moves 9 kph, or 15% slower than Clan DS, with less firepower and range. Lets make it more presentable by changing out the ERLLs with more ERMLs and use the spare tonnage for engine and DHS.




Still slower, has 20 points, or 25% less alpha, and doesn't have enough range for the mech to safely operate. I am sure we can free up more tonnage by using XL engine, but it will still run slower and/or still have less DHS. Not to mention IS XL + Gauss in the arms could mean faster death in many cases, and it still will not solve slot problem. And IS CASE can't even save you cause you can't mount them in the arms!

"But what about quirks?" you might ask. Sure, let's take the Mauler as example and see what quirks PGI is likely to give the IS DS, factoring in its high mounts and high engine cap. Most likely:

-20% UAC jam chance, 10% ballistic cooldown, -10% energy heat, +10 structure to arms, +10 structure to STs, and +10 structure to legs. Which is still not good enough to make up for the lost firepower and speed.


Bottom line is: Current tech balance is bad, yo.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 October 2017 - 07:13 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

How would the Nightstar NSR-9FC compare? It's a shame the NSR-9J has hand actuators, preventing the use of both Energy hardpoints if you put Gauss in the arms...

[El Bandito]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

How would the Nightstar NSR-9FC compare? It's a shame the NSR-9J has hand actuators, preventing the use of both Energy hardpoints if you put Gauss in the arms...

As you say, the Nightstar can't equip energy on the arms due to IS Gauss costing 7 slots. Which means it can equip only 4 energy at most, similar to MCII-1, making it even worse. The extra 5 tons will be used on the engine and armor to keep up with the tonnage, so it won't have any extra firepower or DHS, compared to the Mauler-2P example above.

You can run IS XL on it, but with Nightstar's profile I wouldn't recommend it, unless you stay well away from the frontline.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 October 2017 - 06:14 AM.

[Bud Crue]

This is a great illustration of something I have been trying to express for a while. It isn’t just the Deathstrike to Mauler (or anything frankly) comparison, but its somewhat across the board. The Deathstrike just turns the imbalance perception up to 11.

Consider other less blatant examples:
Say a Hunchback IIC. Now make me a 2UAC10, 2ERML, with a JJ, IS equivelant. Maybe on an IV-4 with an XL? Other than that a Cataphract 3D? Even these larger mechs where such a build is possible still lack decent hard point height.
How about an 8 ballistics light mech on an IS chassis? I’ll wait.
Sure some clan builds can be approached with something close to parity at the same tonnage (e.g a 6 SRM6A Huntsman vs a 6SRM6 +quirks Bushwacker for example) but even in those cases the clan mech still has some aspect that to at least PGI’s point of view makes it inherently superior (JJ for example on the Huntsman). Hell a Nova beats out a Partyback in terms of heat efficiency range, alph potential and JJ.

I don’t know. I think the Deathstrike is an obvious balance offender, but there are an awful lot of other mechs that are just simply superior on the Clan side, or that have no reasonable equivelant on the IS side; and that just makes me not want to play my IS mechs.

[El Bandito]

Bud Crue, on 10 October 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

I don’t know. I think the Deathstrike is an obvious balance offender, but there are an awful lot of other mechs that are just simply superior on the Clan side, or that have no reasonable equivelant on the IS side; and that just makes me not want to play my IS mechs.

Yep, tech imbalance basically makes meta Clan mechs to have 15 ton advantage in firepower, compared to IS mechs. IS mechs have more durability, but durability is strictly worse than firepower in this game, especially since IS mechs have slower speed with LFE, thus easier to hit. FP might not suffer as much since IS has 25 extra tons, but in QP, no such luck.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 October 2017 - 07:45 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Well, you could use light gauss on the NSR-9J and fill the e-slots. But I doubt anyone would want that unless lg damage is buffed hard.

[Daurock]

Yep, this just illustrates how bad the basic tech imbalance is. Between Gauss, Engine Tech, Bulky IS tech and the WTF laser balance, clan just doesn't have any real downside at this point. If PGI ever wants to go towards its stated "No quirk" model, they're going to need to get the basic tech shored up first, or live with huge imbalances such as these.

Edited by Daurock, 10 October 2017 - 06:42 AM.

[FantasticMrDark]

Wow its almost like Clan Battlemechs completely break any semblance of balance over their knee.

[Black Ivan]

Well done in explaining how large the tech imbalance between IS and Clan is. Too bad PGI is very blind on this eye

[Tiewolf]

El Bandito, on 10 October 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Bottom line is: Current tech balance is bad, yo.

q.e.d. Well done El Bandito! Kudos

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

How would the Nightstar NSR-9FC compare? It's a shame the NSR-9J has hand actuators, preventing the use of both Energy hardpoints if you put Gauss in the arms...

was about to ask this, the IS is getting the nightstand soon so it should be able to build the same.

[Daurock]

Grus, on 10 October 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

was about to ask this, the IS is getting the nightstand soon so it should be able to build the same.

Not really. Due to the bulkiness of the IS gauss, it won't be able to mount the same amount of lasers as the clan one. Even if you DID have the same amount and location of hardpoints, you'd STILL have the Engine/weapon weight, total space, and laser alpha deficiencies inherent to IS tech.

Bottom line is, even the heralded nightstar is going to be a pale imitation of the deathstrike due only to being IS.

Edited by Daurock, 10 October 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[El Bandito]

Grus, on 10 October 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

was about to ask this, the IS is getting the nightstand soon so it should be able to build the same.

Unfortunately even the Nightstar, which is 5 tons heavier than MCII, will not be able to match the firepower and speed of the DS due to tech imbalance. I ran tests already. You can try to use IS XL to save more tonnage, but on a mech like Nightstar, IS XL is fast lane to death.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 October 2017 - 09:06 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

At least the Nightstar wins the coolness contest.

[TheArisen]

Well the Nightstar 9S doesn't have hand actuators but it does have more torso mounts. Currently it is an assumtion that you can't XL in a Nightstsr but we don't have it in game yet. But the point stands that Clan tech would dramatically improve many IS mechs like the Msuler & Nightstar.

[SFC174]

I wonder if you could accurately predict the outcome of solo PUG matches by comparing clan tonnage weight from one team to the other? Hmm, may have to go back to some of my old screenshots. Obviously derp builds throw a confounding factor in there, but...

[Daurock]

TheArisen, on 10 October 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

Well the Nightstar 9S doesn't have hand actuators but it does have more torso mounts. Currently it is an assumtion that you can't XL in a Nightstsr but we don't have it in game yet. But the point stands that Clan tech would dramatically improve many IS mechs like the Msuler & Nightstar.

I have a basic rule about ISXL - Basically, anything running under 85 is an automatic no. Remember those people who get laughed at by bringing an ISXL into an assault? Don't be one of those people.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Daurock, on 10 October 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

I have a basic rule about ISXL - Basically, anything running under 85 is an automatic no. Remember those people who get laughed at by bringing an ISXL into an assault? Don't be one of those people.

Except the Wubshee used to be meta and ran an iXL so that is more of a guideline than a real rule.

[Felix von Buelow]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 October 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

How would the Nightstar NSR-9FC compare? It's a shame the NSR-9J has hand actuators, preventing the use of both Energy hardpoints if you put Gauss in the arms...

In another thread I was talking about some possible Nightstar builds. The only variant coming closest to the Deathstrike meta build might be the 9FC with the following loadout:

9FC Gauss Vomit:

• LFE300 (51.2 kph w/o speed tweak)
  
• 3 external DHS (Cooling at 36%)
  
• 3 ERMLs
  
• 2 LLs
  
• 2 GRs /w 5 tons of ammo
  
• Max armor

For theorycrafting I used the BNC-3S. The 15 tons and 8 slots left over will be used for the second Gauss and the hand actuator the Nightstar has in both arms but the Banshee only in the right one.

• Alpha of 63
  
• Similar heat mgmt
  
• Far worse speed

Smurfy link: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7c563774bbbeed8

Edited by GhostNemesys, 10 October 2017 - 12:02 PM.

[Composite Armour]

They should bring the weapon damages in line with each other.

I'm fine with asym balancing of clans being longer range, longer burn times and hotter(Yes I know about the DHS thing, but just the idea) and IS being shorter range, quicker and cooler. That's fine.

However this falls flat on it's face when the damages are different. Clans can have a much higher alpha for the same slots and tonnage as their IS counterparts. It's a situation in which the clan er-med can start being compared to the IS LL.

A 1 slot, 1 ton weapon can be compared to a 2 slot, 5 ton weapon. That's just silly.

Of course, this by itself is nowhere near the only issue that needs to be addressed.