63 replies to this topic

[Kael Posavatz]

"Fortunately, Russ Bullock is all about the little details."

Which might explain how some big details *cough*long tom*cough* have gotten missed.

[ForceUser]

Bombast, on 11 October 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Today I Learned that apparently PGI traded its mech models for HBS's design documentation.

Fair enough, really.

There's going to be a lot of overlap between Battletech and Mercenaries and I'm 100% sure that this is by design. Cohesion, branding, making a universe consistent across multiple titles, platforms and genres is extremely powerful for encouraging cross pollination and growing/keeping a playerbase.

[Thorn Hallis]

Rebel Ace Fryslan, on 11 October 2017 - 02:11 AM, said:

@curccu i have that problem with this forum i haven't added any bb-code myself. I can not even quote anything.

That's also why i can't really discuss without the quote option working.

Have you tried the small litte button called "Toggle editing mode" in the upper left part of the reply window? It worked wonders for me.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 11 October 2017 - 09:03 AM.

[James Argent]

No, there's an issue with the forum itself. Some people (myself included) can't quote, insert images, or even paste copied text into the reply box, whether it's from the forum or a separate text editor.

Quote

I can 'construct' a quote if I type out the text manually, highlight it, and press the quote button., but the 'reply with quote' buttons on individual posts may as well not even exist.

Additionally, after about 20 characters, I have to slow my typing speed to a crawl (about a full second between key presses) or the text box won't pick them up.

For the final insult, I had to restore this post from saved content as the forum page decided to stop working and had to reload.

[Lightfoot]

Well, having played MechWarrior singleplayer games for 20 years (and I still do play MechWarrior 3 and 4 and Mercs) I think Mechlab adds the maximum player involvement and game re-playability.

Mechlab doesn't control access to things like Ferro Fibrous armor, the game storyline does. It's the Storyline that adds to the decisions the player might make while pursuing a non-linear storyline (oxymoron). Do I go to Missisagua where they have FF armor or do I go to Wolf 359 for Gauss Rifles?, for instance. It's not Mechlab.

However, Mechlab does control Tactics. Outfitting for a particularly difficult mission. Therefore Mechlab controls Mission depth and Mission difficulty. It enables missions to be made more difficult than can be beaten in just normal deployments. It enables alternate strategies to complete the missions in better fashion with more mechs surviving. There is so much more Mechlab adds to gameplay that it makes MechWarrior shine as the unique Mech Sim that sets the standard above all others.

Now no one has said there will be no customization at all so hopefully there is some that is enough to balance the scarcity of mechs with the need to outfit the mechs for special missions and strategies.

I remember how MechAssault was kind of a letdown when they just handed you your mechs for the next mission. It didn't ruin the game, but it seemed more shallow. Worst was no Joystick support and having to just point the mech in the general direction of targets to hit them ala gamepads.

[Wintersdark]

We know you would think just be handed mechs for the next mission, as the Merc company economy is a big part of the game (as they sell it now; as we all know the game that launches is often different from the game that was talked about during development).


Moreso, it's more "open world" than "linear storyline" from what the PCG article says, so while current game year will impact availability, simple finances and location will too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for customization and would go further and say that I feel it's less problematic in a SP game because balance is dramatically less important - it's perfectly ok to obsolete old chassis/gear as time progresses in a SP game.

But I get where they are coming from. When you allow full customization, you turn mechs more and more into Gun Bags, which makes finding rare variants WAY less interesting. Mechs are not supposed to be super customizable, particularly Battlemechs. That's why variants exist in the first place.

[N0ni]

Lightfoot, on 11 October 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

I think Mechlab adds the maximum player involvement and game re-playability.

This right here nails it. People play the same campaigns in games for endless hours because they have the ability to start all over and try different things. Borderlands series is a good example of that. You have a choice to go back to the start and try a different character or play the same character with a different style/build.

Going back to Mechwarrior, previous titles have let you start all over again and offer you the chance to play it differently because of mechlabbing. Instead of your ggez mechs/builds, you can try to beat the same missions with different mechs/builds or even make personal challenges (like my personal favorite, the "Commando challenge" disregarding the missions where you're forced in a Stalker and in a stolen Kodiak in MW2:Mercs).

Point is, previous games had replay value because of player choice. You start taking choice away and it becomes not worth the price of the game.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 11 October 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

But I get where they are coming from. When you allow full customization, you turn mechs more and more into Gun Bags, which makes finding rare variants WAY less interesting. Mechs are not supposed to be super customizable, particularly Battlemechs. That's why variants exist in the first place.

Yeah, but that can easily be fixed by making the Mech like your PC and equipment like your typical game. You shift the focus on finding rare mechs to rare equipment.

[ForceUser]

Lightfoot, on 11 October 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

Well, having played MechWarrior singleplayer games for 20 years (and I still do play MechWarrior 3 and 4 and Mercs) I think Mechlab adds the maximum player involvement and game re-playability.

This is the first MW game with this many chassis and variants. Previous ones literally had a fraction of the number of mechs in the base game. Giving full or close to full customization (which has differed from one game to the next btw) will more or less make having that many variants effectively redundant. Re-playability will be a huge part of why the customization is limited. If you can just take a variant and make it do the job of 12 other mechs through customization then what's the point of having things like a market, salvage options, different factions to take missions from, moving from one part of the IS to another to get access to different variants or even advancing the time line to get access to new variants? What's the point of having 400 variants if you only need 12 because customization?

(The below is just a general post about why I think limited customization could be a good thing and not aimed at Lightfoot's post so don't take it as such)

Both Battletech and MW5 is going with a much more limited customization while at the same time introducing different weapon manufacturers with weapons that have different attributes (something present in later TT and Lore).

I think a lot of people are so hung up on 'muh customization' because that's all they've ever known that they're not willing to try something that could not only be as good or as fun (in a different way) but perhaps even more so.

The biggest problem with customization, in a single player game especially is that once you solve the puzzle of what's the best, what point is there in doing it differently? Once you solve the formula then the excitement of salvaging a new variant or seeing a new variant in the market or the drive to work for a different faction to get ahold of a different variant is all gone. And with that most of the re playability.

Previous MW titles worked around this by making the mechs you have access to through salvage (MW3/4) or the market (MW4) random. Problem is once you have that one specific mech or variant you just boat X numbers of weapon Y and proceed to cheese though the game. You could puposefully hobble yourself with bad builds but as soon as you hit a kinda tough mission you just go back to cheese. Path of least resistance and all that. It's different when you have to make the most of what you have, the variants you have and the weapons/mercenaries/contracts/market availability/timeline/etc. that you find yourself with and in.

It's overcoming the limitations that make something worth doing. Being given everything on a silver platter cheapens it and reduces/removes real replayability.

And hay if you do want to just easy mode cheese your way through the game, that's what trainers/cheats/mods are for and I'm sure those will be available in one way or another.

[Lightfoot]

@ ForceUser

It is not Mechlab, or no Mechlab, that sets limitations. It's the Storyline that controls what assets you have. Mechlab just adds replay ability and gameplay depth. It doesn't add cheeze. Cheeze is relying on the total removal of Mechlab to exert control over how players play the game, IMHO. So I think there will be load-out changes allowed, just not full Mechlab. No load-out changes at all would be a big reversal from MechWarrior's best selling games.

Mechlab let's you play with Rocket Science. 'nuff said.

[Jun Watarase]

There are plenty of ways to discourage rampant customization...hell, MWO has some. Battletech itself has refit rules that make it very expensive/time consuming to refit a mech to crazy levels. Changing the structure of a mech to endo-steel for example takes factory level facilities and thousands of man hours. It would not be too hard to port the rules over so that players could do simple refits like downgrading a large laser to a medium laser. As long as the game doesnt give players easy access to c-bills, players would have plenty of reasons to buy certain variants rather than go nuts with customization.

But you know, that kind of takes effort.

[Nema Nabojiv]

ForceUser, on 11 October 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

Previous MW titles worked around this by making the mechs you have access to through salvage (MW3/4) or the market (MW4) random. Problem is once you have that one specific mech or variant you just boat X numbers of weapon Y and proceed to cheese though the game. You could puposefully hobble yourself with bad builds but as soon as you hit a kinda tough mission you just go back to cheese.

Seems you have found the right words to sum up the lategame problem MW4 Mercs has. I remember once I've got 8 assaults with I dont remember which guns, it became a cakewalk from there on.

[ForceUser]

Jun Watarase, on 11 October 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

There are plenty of ways to discourage rampant customization...hell, MWO has some. Battletech itself has refit rules that make it very expensive/time consuming to refit a mech to crazy levels. Changing the structure of a mech to endo-steel for example takes factory level facilities and thousands of man hours. It would not be too hard to port the rules over so that players could do simple refits like downgrading a large laser to a medium laser. As long as the game doesnt give players easy access to c-bills, players would have plenty of reasons to buy certain variants rather than go nuts with customization.

But you know, that kind of takes effort.

We already know we will be able to do weapon refits. To what degree we don't know but yea there will be some customization, but not close to what we see in MWO. It just doesn't make sense for a tiny merc company from the periphery to have access to Mech Factories or the kind of techs or money needed to do a refit of a mech with Endo.

We're talking levels of resources available only to Leaders of the major Houses.

Edited by ForceUser, 11 October 2017 - 12:29 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Yeah, but that can easily be fixed by making the Mech like your PC and equipment like your typical game. You shift the focus on finding rare mechs to rare equipment.

perhaps, but that's less cool than making the actual mech variants more interesting, given how they are focusing on mech availability by house and timeline.

[James Argent]

The entire concept of 'replacing structure to upgrade' is nuts. The structure IS the mech. You don't replace the structure, you would have build an entire new mech from scratch then stuff it full of engine, gyro, cockpit, myomer bundles, weapons, and armor you spent a lot of time to take off of the old mech, effectively doubling the amount of work a factory would require to build one. And no way would even the Sphere's largest most well-established and -equipped mercenary unit have access to the molds and smelting facilities required to cast, alloy, and forge (and who knows what else) the materials required to make a new structure customized to a mech you just happened to have on hand. Structure ain't Legos.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 11 October 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

perhaps, but that's less cool than making the actual mech variants more interesting, given how they are focusing on mech availability by house and timeline.

Guess I'm different. I want the ability to do the whole career in the mech of my choice and not be forced to use whatever mech happens to have the best tech on it. If this were a game where you could pick a house you are loyal too then sure that would be cool, but you aren't, you are a merc which means you don't necessarily have to pick an allegiance which means, pick whatever mech is cool to you.

This is a single player game after all, I want the rule of cool to be a thing that doesn't necessarily screw me over.

I'm willing to bet the game will have the same issue with weight class creep to, where eventually the best mech for the job will be assaults and taking anything less will be sub-optimal. I don't want lights or mediums to be one of those things you take for hard-mode.



Not to mention houses can still impact what tech you have available (like Light Gauss being exclusive to FWL or Stealth Armor being exclusive to CC) for direct purchase.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 October 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Guess I'm different. I want the ability to do the whole career in the mech of my choice and not be forced to use whatever mech happens to have the best tech on it. If this were a game where you could pick a house you are loyal too then sure that would be cool, but you aren't, you are a merc which means you don't necessarily have to pick an allegiance which means, pick whatever mech is cool to you.

This is a single player game after all, I want the rule of cool to be a thing.

That was 90% of the replayability of the old MW titles. Trying to beat the game on hard settings with a single mech without changing. I always screwed up in MW2 games cuz I would always forget about the stupid stealth missions. Beating MW3 with a Mad dog was my favorite. If I could get them to load now, I would still likely be trying other mechs.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Guess I'm different. I want the ability to do the whole career in the mech of my choice and not be forced to use whatever mech happens to have the best tech on it. If this were a game where you could pick a house you are loyal too then sure that would be cool, but you aren't, you are a merc which means you don't necessarily have to pick an allegiance which means, pick whatever mech is cool to you.

Sure, as a Merc you're not stuck to a house and you can travel to another house to shop - makes sure everything is available, while promoting exploration to find where you can get your dream mech.

Quote

This is a single player game after all, I want the rule of cool to be a thing that doesn't necessarily screw me over.

On the flip side, this makes mechs genuinely unique instead of MWO style increasing blandness - it is, when all is said and done, how the IP is supposed to be. I understand prefering the tradition Mechwarrior Gunbag Style, but it does detract from the way things are supposed to be.

Quote

I'm willing to bet the game will have the same issue with weight class creep to, where eventually the best mech for the job will be assaults and taking anything less will be sub-optimal. I don't want lights or mediums to be one of those things you take for hard-mode.

I fear this too. At least Russ has already repeatedly discussed being aware of that as a problem (even from the initial MWO design), and while MWO hasn't avoided the problem entirely, it's done better than any prior Mechwarrior game in that department.

In fact, the failing of MWO here isn't one of balance, and is instead more an issue of the nature of arena shooters. It's extremely difficult to make lights equal to assaults when you can't really have missions that *need* lights in a non stupid way.

On the other hand, a SP campaign's missions can be designed to need that speed/agility.

Will it? Who knows. I'm hopeful, but that hope is well tempered by years of experience here =/

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 11 October 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

On the flip side, this makes mechs genuinely unique instead of MWO style increasing blandness - it is, when all is said and done, how the IP is supposed to be. I understand prefering the tradition Mechwarrior Gunbag Style, but it does detract from the way things are supposed to be.

Not necessarily, I mean a lot of stock variants themselves are pretty bland especially in L1 tech. That said, I'm not against more controlled measures being in place to ensure customization is still limited and letting tech upgrades be the big thing (like a Vindi or Griffin have to mount a PPC, but whether you upgrade to Lord's Light PPC from a Magna PPC or even a Heavy PPC is another story. At that point weapon manufacturers give you an "upgrade" path of sorts that you can use to upgrade mechs within a limited scope. Hell you could even go more granular than that and have for example special "structures" for mechs like the Vindi that offer more protection than you would otherwise get for a 45 tonner. There's a lot of possibilities when you start to get granular for equipment and single player can get away with that since these are considered upgrades.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 October 2017 - 03:13 PM.

[Ghogiel]

RNG missions on RNG maps, with RNG markets. Getting vibes it'll be a bland version of no mans sky or something.