290 replies to this topic

[John McHobo]

Gameplay -Ballistics:
I am not certain if the general ballistic speed buff was needed, and keep in mind that velocitiy nodes get buffed at the same time, but I don´t think that it will be bad for the game, which contains hitscanning and homing weapon families.
Question: Do velocity nodes affect missile speed? I always assumed they do.
Buffing the LBX5, lInking UAC5 and AC5 for ghost heat makes sense, making the UAC5 hotter does not. The goal is to hit UAC5 boats, but increasing the general heat for it hits every mech which fields it. E.g. the Reaver usually fields 2 UAC5s which is by no means boating, but is hit by the nerf all the same.

Gameplay -Missiles:
Artemis is (for both clans and IS) a costly investment in terms of CBills and (more important) tonnage and crit space. It is by no means a freeby upgrade and freed up skill points for other fields. This nerf reduces the returns of it. Fielding a single SRM6 on any mech becomes completely unattractive, while a boating mech will still hit the same component due to salvo volume.

Using a missile lock to fire around an obstacle was a feat of skill, positioning and teamwork. To hell with that I guess.
Streaks are currently only viable against lighter mechs, on which you will have a harder time maintaining lock now.
Lurms wont suffer, since the target can´t switch angle fast enough due to the long distance the weapon is used.

Adjusting ATM spread to Artemis spread makes sense at least no matter what I think about the nerf itself.

Gameplay -Lasers:
Enough has been written about how weird the adjusted values are, and what annoys me most is how unviable a small number of lasers will become, and how much more pokey laser boats will play now. If you want to make laser boats weaker but still an active, non-hiding part of the team, you should increase burn duration.
Again, this nerf hits every mech, not just the boats.

Gameplay -Quirks:
The energy-based Grasshopper has become a rare sight already, why it gets hit by the nerf bat again in apatch that nerfs lasers in general is beyond me. (Note: I don´t own one).
The Jenner needed the buff and I thought; maybe we see more Jenners in the future untill I read that the next buffed mech is the Jenner IIC, which already trumps its IS predecessor.
Upping mobility for 100 tonners is a good thing in general, and not buffing the KDK3 is a good move. One thing however made my jaw literally DROP: The sprit bears base mobility is lower than the other Kodiak´s? WHY? Is this a punishment because it might use MASC for a few seconds? Please fix this!
I don´t think the Annihilator should loose tanking capacity, with its low engine cap and profile it needs every bit, the best solution may be to change the lost bonus armor into bonus structure



Gameplay -General:
MRM firing rate was influenced by client fps... oooookay.
Stealth armor working against radar, sweeps and turrets. Very good,it makes sense to do so and gives the sidegrade more tactical value.
Streaks do not target destroyed components any more: Great, but it shows how weird and clunky the entire weapon system is.
Friendly UAVs are shown as such on the HUD: THANK YOOOOOOUUUU!

Overall I don´t have a good feeling about this patch. PGI has well understood that boating weapons in general and lasers in particular is a huge issue, but their answer to the issue is to hit the weapons and mechs with the nerf bat. And that means that every mech suffers, so boating builds stay up in power in relation to their less fortunate non-boting brethren.
What is needed is a system of diminishing returns so the first medium laser is never a bad choice, while the sevenths becomes one. As long as this is not done, boating won´t be fixed, and thats why this patch does not help.
The attempt done with this patch is not helpful.

edit: all teh spellinks

Edited by John McHobo, 15 October 2017 - 04:13 AM.

[chucklesMuch]

Dear PGi,

I don't know where to begin. It would be hard to be less excited about a new patch than I am right now and that includes having 3 of 4 new mechs pre-ordered (though this is under review, as I already have plenty of unused mechs; Orisis - lasers, nova cat - arms, hoping nightstar is changed for the better).

The velocity increases are positive. The mobility increases, where noticeable are in the right direction. Then you have whatever it is that you are doing to the lasers (and missiles). I can't see how this is going to help balance between classes or factions. Seems more likely to neuter/shelf more of my builds (especially fast pew pew lights/mediums) that I liked to run and encourage more high alpha heavies/assaults.

Kek:
SL... need there own meme about how bad they are yet have been nerfed in sucessive patches
Can you go a patch without kicking an IS Mech - Grasshoppers really!?
Lurms did you actually make this terrible weapon system worse? (Artemis/angle)


I have barely used IS mechs since ST and would like too (half my mechs are IS)... but you keep nerfing them (either directly via specific nerfs or indirectly by balance changes). Please note how many were used in the semi's and that they lose all the CW/FP events.

Edited by chucklesMuch, 15 October 2017 - 04:21 AM.

[GweNTLeR]

Hey PGI, you REALLY want to drop IS FW win rate to 0%? IT'S a really really really REALLY bad idea to nerf lasers without nerfing c-mg's or boosting IS ones. Clanners will just spam SRM linebackers(which are already freaking strong compared to anything else) and MG ACHs, easily dominating the battlefield.

[Warschnuffel]

I agree on the Laser-Part beeing a very questionable idea. Playing the poking gaming will not be affected by this patch and is the preferred tactic of the already strong clan-side. It is a playstyle that is very pug-friendly. Coordinate a push, which would be very effective against it, is way harder and wil be even more so, if you can't brawl with laser weapons now. So i think it will be very problematic for balancing.

If you want players to use different weapons then lasers, its still the much better way to increase burn duration in my opinion. But we will see – i am always open for trying things out – but PLZ be prepared to change it back fast, if **** hits the fan.

[Skaav]

After starting 2017 with a few good ideas, we have now devolved into random changes to the game again.

These constant nerfs to the playability of ALL mechs, together with the lack of a matchmaker tho...

playing this game outside the competitive setting becomes more tough to enjoy every month

[Mighty Spike]

Tahawus, on 14 October 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

PGI, redefining incompetent community management and game balance (again).

^THIS° and that for more then 5 years. Its a shame what they doing with the game. and realy sad, i loved this game
My biggest concerns are not the laser changes, more the:
seems they are not interested to keep players and bring &hold new players here. may could think they do it intentionally to keep new players away and hold the veterans

Edited by Mighty Spike, 15 October 2017 - 06:08 AM.

[Yiryi-Sa]

If the aim is to reduce laser DPS, why not prevent a mech's heat dissipation from kicking in until after the laser cool down has finished (rather than nerfing laser cooldowns)? Boating more and more lasers would give an exponential penalty.

Edited by Yiryi-Sa, 15 October 2017 - 06:00 AM.

[Valyknir]

• Mechlab: Fixed an issue where the 'Mech Stats Component tooltip element could remain on the screen.

Finally!

[cougurt]

it would have made much more sense to reduce the damage on medium and large lasers and shorten their cooldown by a small amount.

as many others have said, increasing cooldown has little effect on laser vomit builds since they're limited far more by heat. the only thing this really does is make lasers almost exclusively a mid-long range poking weapon, which might make some sense had it come alongside a buff to the shorter range lasers, but instead we get yet another inexplicable nerf.

at this point i think i'd prefer it if you just stuck to shuffling around inconsequential quirks.

Edited by cougurt, 15 October 2017 - 07:17 AM.

[-Pik-]

Since the skill tree patch patches became increasingly weird.

Strange nerfs to weapons, instead of buffing underused weapons (light gauss, clan normal ACs, IS lbx20 come to mind) to increase diversity.
Random nerfs to mechs, like changing the Anni to help the Atlas. What kind of reasoning is this?
Nerf Grasshoppers?
Clan/IS balance hasn't really been touched since the skill tree, when IS lost most of its quirks and gained gimmicky (albeit fun!) weapons that didn't really help at a try hard level. Clans got heavy lasers, which perfectly fit the laser vomit/alpha strike meta...

Not a blog or even a mention of the new map (surely will be late) or the matchmaking problems, were they even recognized? No retrofits this month. Where is the new content?

Last week I was really pumped about the upcoming Nightstar release (the only mech I ever preordered).
Well Friday started with a bugged event with no progress, Saturday I looked at the patch notes (da Fuq!) then at the ingame screenshot of the new IS Assault Ebon Jaguar (wtf...). Today I woke up with cool pictures of the Nightstar hardpoints (feelsbadman) and looking further both clan mechs have better and more useable quirks than the IS mechs... (feelsbadman with a gun)
I probably won't cancel the preorder, but lesson learned. It is hopeless, it really is...

Edited by -Pik-, 15 October 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[Arend]

With stupid Design Decisions like this it feels like they want to Destroy the Game!
Every Patch Nerfs and new Changes that nobody asked for, same time no new Content or things to be exited about, where are new Maps or atleast tweaks to terrible Gamemodes like Escort and Community Warfare?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Public.
Test.
Server.


you got one. why do you implement such a big change into a game without testing it?
"better move carefully, there might be icebergs around..." - "nah, screw that, full speed ahead"

[shopsmart]

So glad I am not playing right now. Fallout 4 again due to new kid. Need a game I can pause.

Reading about the changes makes me glad I am not playing, but everything should pan out by the piranha hits. Should be about the time I start up again.

Structure nerfs on annihilator? WOW. Take away what makes the mechs name sake.

[aidenmpryde]

Do you even like money????? You do realize that your fan base continues to dwindle in two key areas, Finance and Participation.
Your trying fix crap that the majority of this forum has asked you to do like 4 years ago. Now your band aids are popping off and your trying to use a tourniquet instead of operating. This is the same fan base that your going to rely on to by MW5..........Great idea its working well, keep pissing them off . Well is running dry Lassie and Timmy isnt going to continue to come back to it...

Edited by aidenmpryde, 15 October 2017 - 08:49 AM.

[Dee Eight]

invernomuto, on 15 October 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

Finally!

1 degree of turn rate.... oh that's gonna make such a different on the swirling speed of pooo

[meteorol]

Man, lots of positive feedback you are getting here for the proposed laser changes. Or on reddit. Or anywhere.

Top f*cking kek.

Seriously guys. Did you see the recent decline in player numbers and thought "well, lets speed things up so we can focus on new projects" ?

It's painfully obvious that you don't really know how your own game is played, so it's pretty useless to argue on a balance level here, but...

Just think about something for a second. Just think about it.

Do you believe having 5 seconds cooldown on a ERML is fun to your average user?

Do you believe Mr. Scrublet Mc. Puggles, who uses 3x ERML, 1x LRM 5, and a LBX 10 on some **** mech will enjoy having 5 seconds cooldown on his ERMLs?
Because those 5 seconds will hit your average bracket build using casual way harder than people relying on high alpha laservomit builds. Their dps is limited by heat after 2 alphas (3 with coolshot) anyway. Your average Joe will suffer a lot more from this change.

[Rhialto]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 15 October 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Public.
Test.
Server.


you got one. why do you implement such a big change into a game without testing it?

Yes, WHY?

[Cy Mitchell]

John McHobo, on 15 October 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

Overall I don´t have a good feeling about this patch. PGI has well understood that boating weapons in general and lasers in particular is a huge issue, but their answer to the issue is to hit the weapons and mechs with the nerf bat. And that means that every mech suffers, so boating builds stay up in power in relation to their less fortunate non-boting brethren.
What is needed is a system of diminishing returns so the first medium laser is never a bad choice, while the sevenths becomes one. As long as this is not done, boating won´t be fixed, and thats why this patch does not help.
The attempt done with this patch is not helpful.

I am usually supportive of the performance adjustments that PGI makes to the game. I have also been very supportive of the changes that Chris has made since he has taken the balance reins. The one exception was the changes to UAC jam chances and duration to combat the dakka boating. It hurt the Mechs that only carried one or two UACs and the boats were still overly strong.

Now, the exact same thing has been done with lasers. In June, there was a big review of all the energy weapons and a lot of weapons were tweaked. It seemed to put most everything in a relatively logical place. Then the Civil War tech came online in the July patch and the Heavy Laser class skewed the Clan laser vomit towards being OP. Combine that with the Gauss/erPPC Ghost heat pairings and the go to weapon choice is Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit.

If the goal of this patch is to hinder Laser or Gauss vomit then it is doomed to fail. In addition it has taken all the work that was done during the June energy re-balance pass and just tossed it out the window. Nothing makes sense anymore. The Large Laser class weapons will now cycle faster than many of the Medium and Small class weapons. High Alpha builds will not be affected. They need to hide to bleed off heat anyway. Skirmishers and Brawlers that want to use lasers as primary or back-up weapons will find themselves without weapons to fire for long periods of time while engaged in close combat. A mixed build with UACs and lasers could find themselves without any weapons to fire due to the frequency of jams, long duration of jams and, now, the significantly increased recycle times of their back-up lasers.

While this change may increase TTK a bit and I support this goal, I do not think the cost are worth the gains in this case. It seems like Laser users are going to be pigeonholed into playing a peek and shoot style of play only and nothing else will be viable. I really hope I am wrong about that

As someone who mostly runs mixed laser/ballistic builds in mid-ranged/skirmisher roles, I find myself hoping that this patch never happens and I am not really very interested in playing when it does.

Edited by Rampage, 15 October 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Rampage, on 15 October 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

I am usually supportive of the performance adjustments that PGI makes to the game. I have also been very supportive of the changes that Chris has made since he has taken the balance reins. The one exception was the changes to UAC jam chances and duration to combat the dakka boating. It hurt the Mechs that only carried one or two UACs and the boats were still overly strong.

Now, the exact same thing has been done with lasers. In June, there was a big review of all the energy weapons and a lot of weapons were tweaked. It seemed to put most everything in a relatively logical place. Then the Civil War tech came online in the July patch and the Heavy Laser class skewed the Clan laser vomit towards being OP. Combine that with the Gauss/erPPC Ghost heat pairings and the go to weapon choice is Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit.

If the goal of this patch is to hinder Laser or Gauss vomit then it is doomed to fail. In addition it has taken all the work that was done during the June energy re-balance pass and just tossed it out the window. Nothing makes sense anymore. The Large Laser class weapons will now cycle faster than many of the Medium and Small class weapons. High Alpha builds will not be affected. They need to hide to bleed off heat anyway. Skirmishers and Brawlers that want to use lasers as primary or back-up weapons will find themselves without weapons to fire for long periods of time while engaged in close combat. A mixed build with UACs and lasers could find themselves without any weapons to fire due to the frequency of jams, long duration of jams and, now, the significantly increased recycle times of their back-up lasers.

While this change may increase TTK a bit and I support this goal, I do not think the cost are worth the gains in this case. It seems like Laser users are going to be pigeonholed into playing a peek and shoot style of play only and nothing else will be viable. I really hope I am wrong about that

As someone who mostly runs mixed laser/ballistic builds in mid-ranged/skirmisher roles, I find myself hoping that this patch never happens and I am not really very interested in playing when it does.

Really all these changes will do is make it even easier for light LMG boats to strip the armor off your mech while running circles around you without taking damage because your lasers will take so long to cycle and your missiles will spread the damage even more now.

Really if MG lights are what PGI wants us all to pilot, then just get rid of Mechs altogether and just make an Elemental-based shooter.

Edited by Ed Steele, 15 October 2017 - 12:14 PM.

[PrimeMehster]

What always baffles me is why PGI attempts to nerf down weapons / mechs to a determined mean performance, rather than buff other weapons / mechs up to compensate? If people are loading into a certain weapon combo or chassis, whether it just be a fun, quirky build that cannot be replicated or some consistently performing meta cheese, then why not just improve other chassis to give even more options and reduce complaints? It literally is the difference of which way they change numbers. PGI could please over half the playerbase tomorrow and drastically improve retention if they merely just took the time to get their ingame values to a balanced and enjoyable state. If you want to increase TTK, then give mechs better agility / durability to compensate if they should have better roles. Make things like ECM and stealth armor worthwhile without requiring high amounts of skill investment. None of these changes require new content or bug fixes, they are just changing numbers around to create a better system.
I get the common saying that these guys play spreadsheet warrior, and my only question is why? What can you possibly learn from a list of numbers? There is no context, no face to face commentary, nothing. If PGI wants to have their game played by and balanced for AI, then they should come out and state it, rather then just assume that their changes will work on a human playerbase just because the numbers work out. And that's the worst thing, this patch's numbers don't even work out. When Clan MLs have a higher DPS then IS MLs across the board, you are doing something wrong. That literally goes against what they state in-game, with tips saying that clans do more damage over longer exposures at range, while the inner sphere is supposed to have greater DPS and better heat efficiency. These changes look like whoever was in charge spent five minutes looking at meaningless numbers and making a decision, then spending an hour trying to defend said decision when their previous actions don't even match the same intentions. What kind of organization is that?
I get that what I'm saying is just another salt infused modified repost of the same complaints that everybody else has made, but at what point will PGI realize that this literally the worst thing they could do, in any way they think about it? Their game doesn't look good, because players don't enjoy mixed messages and bad balancing and as a result, they won't pay for it. I love the idea of this game to death, and yet I can't spend money on it because I know that it is a doomed product if I do.
I feel like, if PGI hired somebody, or maybe even just used somebody in the company or a bunch of common streamers and whatnot as gameplay testers and feedback contributors, their game's balance and QOL would skyrocket in a month. If they sent 3 people to just play an hour or two a day in each region, and at the end of every match, say something like: "Hey I'm part of the dev / feedback team, if you have any complaints or comments, make them now", they would have so much better data then before. You don't have to spend money, you don't have to introduce new content or create new assets, you just have to play with numbers and take some extra non-numerical data. It's just depressing to watch what is going on now and see what is considered "game development." I don't care how the meta turns out, I just want something that is enjoyable to play and isn't just use the same stale chassis with single weapon max boating while people just sit back and play hide and peek. That's not a game, that's a waste of everyone's time.