43 replies to this topic

[SFC174]

Seems to me that nerfing cooldowns was pretty much the 100% wrong way to go if PGI was trying to limit the high output Gauss/Vomit builds, or even the pure vomit setups (which are pretty much clan anyways).

Personally, I don't think they should have touched IS lasers at all at this juncture, but a small nerf to clan laser damage may have been appropriate without touching anything else.

Ignoring canon or tabletop values, it seems to me that we have a pretty strange progression in damage for the clan laser classes.

Generally you'd expect that for a given laser size, a pulse laser will do more damage than an ER laser, have shorter duration, weigh more and have less range. The new heavy class lasers weigh the same as their ER brethren, but they take up more critical slots, have less range, longer duration and longer cooldown in return for much more damage and heat.

And when compared to their IS counterparts, we expect the clan lasers to do more damage and have more range, but with a longer duration and more heat.

But the Clan lasers, thanks to last few balance passes starting with the CSPL nerf, no longer make sense.

The CMPL does the same damage as the CERML which doesn't fit with the structure. The CERSL actually does more damage than the CSPL. After the CSPL nerf we rarely see these on the battlefield anymore. And CERML are used a lot more than CMPL at this time. And I really don't see that changing much even after the new patch, but I could be wrong.

What I would like to see, which I think would balance the clan laser lineup a little more, is a return to a more logical progression. Let's ignore duration, cooldown and heat for now and just clean up damage.

CERSL - 4.5
CSPL - 5
CHSL - 6.5
CERML - 6
CMPL - 7
CHML - 9
CERLL - 11
CLPL - 12
CHLL - 16

Nothing else would really need to change (maybe a slight heat drop on the HLL since its heat/dmg ratio is poor). And in doing this you'd be dropping the alpha on some of the major clan vomit builds by 6-8% which has the equivalent effect of buffing IS laser builds as well as increasing the attractiveness of other weapon types. Finally, its not such a hard nerf that it requires massive respec'ing of your builds for matching up weapon types, etc.

For reference, look at how the CMPL damage nerf worked out. 2 reductions in damage over 2 patches. It reduced the usage of the CMPL, but they were slight changes with time given for assessment. I think it was a fair nerf, but it left the CERML too powerful damage wise which, combined with Gauss/PPC ghost heat, got us to where we are today.

Just my opinion, fire away

[Paigan]

Pulse lasers don't necessarily need to have more raw damage. They could even have considerably less raw damage, given their pulse nature. What counts is DpS and DpH. If they are better there, they are still a worthy alternative for some situations.

IMHO, the two types of lasers are way too close together. I wouldn't mind Pulse lasers having half the current damage but also half cooldown and duration. You know: pulsed damage, short burns. While ER-lasers would have long burns. But whatever.

Edited by Paigan, 15 October 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Rovertoo]

Yeah pulses should be super fast cooldowns, avg. Damage, high heat. Lasers shoulf be long duration, long cooldown, avg. Damage, lowish heat and range.

[FupDup]

Rovertoo, on 15 October 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yeah pulses should be super fast cooldowns, avg. Damage, high heat. Lasers shoulf be long duration, long cooldown, avg. Damage, lowish heat and range.

If pulses are gonna be reworked to be a DPS-oriented weapon, having high heat directly contradicts that. Heat is the primary limit of DPS in this game, particularly for energy weapons. Having high heat will make their actual DPS much lower than their theoretical Deeps.

Rapid-fire wubs should be medium to low in the heat department so they can be sustained longer than corresponding normal or ER lasers, because that's usually the point of a DPS-gun.

[Pariah Devalis]

Frankly, I'd be happy if Pulse Lasers functioned as machineguns with no cone of fire. Low per packet damage and lower range, but the DPS and HPS being better than standard or ER lasers of the same category. A constant spew of pewpewpewpewpew.

[Khobai]

pulse lasers should be hitscan PPFLD weapons

instead of having a beam duration they would fire pulses and each pulse would do all its damage up front and instantly

[Damnedtroll]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 October 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Frankly, I'd be happy if Pulse Lasers functioned as machineguns with no cone of fire. Low per packet damage and lower range, but the DPS and HPS being better than standard or ER lasers of the same category. A constant spew of pewpewpewpewpew.

Khobai, on 15 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

pulse lasers should be hitscan PPFLD weapons

instead of having a beam duration they would fire pulses and each pulse would do all its damage up front and instantly

Yes and Yes, i like that.

[SeventhSL]

I think you will find that they were not targeting the high alpha poke game play.

There was a good tread a while ago with a lot of people complaining about lights/fast mediums using medium lasers to remove armour for MGs. The cool down nerfs on mediums will certainly help that. A lot actually.

[FupDup]

SeventhSL, on 15 October 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think you will find that they were not targeting the high alpha poke game play.

There was a good tread a while ago with a lot of people complaining about lights/fast mediums using medium lasers to remove armour for MGs. The cool down nerfs on mediums will certainly help that. A lot actually.

Uh, that's pretty much a deliberately intended synergy isn't it? The whole point of having crit-seekers is to use them after you open up some holes.

[SeventhSL]

FupDup, on 15 October 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

Uh, that's pretty much a deliberately intended synergy isn't it? The whole point of having crit-seekers is to use them after you open up some holes.

Yer I'm not saying I agree with the changes just that a bunch of people complained and here we are.

[Rovertoo]

FupDup, on 15 October 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

Uh, that's pretty much a deliberately intended synergy isn't it? The whole point of having crit-seekers is to use them after you open up some holes.

While on that topic though, shouldnt machine guns be less binary? Like, people will always complain when they get insta-critted by mgs, reducing crits to normal levels but upping the damage I feel would be a much less frustrating weapon for both ends. Id prefer MGs to fill a similar damage-central niche as maybe heatless small lasers.

[FupDup]

Rovertoo, on 15 October 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

While on that topic though, shouldnt machine guns be less binary? Like, people will always complain when they get insta-critted by mgs, reducing crits to normal levels but upping the damage I feel would be a much less frustrating weapon for both ends. Id prefer MGs to fill a similar damage-central niche as maybe heatless small lasers.

It would probably reduce complaints if PGI could make MGs deal bonus damage to internal structure in a way that didn't involve getting critical hits on equipment.

Beyond that I think that having the MGs of one faction be the "crit seekers" we have now and the other faction having better anti-armor damage but with no crits at all. It would help make the factions feel a little more different and balance them against each other in a way other than "lighter guns with reduced performance" that some people keep asking for.

[Paigan]

Khobai, on 15 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

pulse lasers should be hitscan PPFLD weapons

instead of having a beam duration they would fire pulses and each pulse would do all its damage up front and instantly

AFAIK, that would contradict the lore, but it's a nice idea.

[Papaspud]

No, just NO, we need MOAR alpha damage- nerf MPL please and anything else that might even threaten alpha warrior online..... thanks!


go clan go!

[Khobai]

Quote

AFAIK, that would contradict the lore, but it's a nice idea.

who cares if it contradicts lore

lore is stupid

[Paigan]

Khobai, on 16 October 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

who cares if it contradicts lore

lore is stupid

Depends.

If lore puts every weapon equally at a 10 second cooldown (because of TT mechanics), it should/must be adjustest for a real time game and dependant values (damage, heat) with it.
But the underlying "spirit" of the universe should be maintained, otherwise it's not that universe anymore.

If you happily throw every lore detail over board as soon as it seems inconvienient, you're basically creating a completely new game in a new universe. You'd probably also get into legal trouble pretty fast. having revoked the license to use all the original Mech designs, etc.

If you want Battetech Mechs, you have to stay at least roughly inside the Battletech universe.

TL;DR: Life is not as simple as you might think it is.

Edited by Paigan, 16 October 2017 - 05:04 AM.

[Daurock]

Paigan, on 16 October 2017 - 05:04 AM, said:

Depends.

If lore puts every weapon equally at a 10 second cooldown (because of TT mechanics), it should/must be adjustest for a real time game and dependant values (damage, heat) with it.
But the underlying "spirit" of the universe should be maintained, otherwise it's not that universe anymore.

If you happily throw every lore detail over board as soon as it seems inconvienient, you're basically creating a completely new game in a new universe. You'd probably also get into legal trouble pretty fast. having revoked the license to use all the original Mech designs, etc.

If you want Battetech Mechs, you have to stay at least roughly inside the Battletech universe.

TL;DR: Life is not as simple as you might think it is.

While this is mostly true, I think that PGI can reasonably "Stretch" what is in the lore far more than what they've been willing to do so far, and still stick with the "Spirit" of the game. For example, I think that the "Spirit" of an LBX AC would still be maintained if they buffed the damage by 20% over its "Standard cousin to balance it.

Some people will disagree on what the correct spirit is for some weapons as well. What is the purpose of a Pulse laser, for instance? Is it's key feature its more accurate nature, or is it its higher damage? Is it supposed to be flatly outlcass the standard laser, (A common feature in the lore) or is it supposed to be a balanced alternative?

In the instance of pulse lasers, I think that right now they overlap a little too much with standard lasers. If it were me, I'd probably start with lengthening the burn time of the standard and Heavy lasers to give the pulse class lasers some breathing room in the burn time department. (I.E. a medium laser would feel more like a heavy medium)

[Khobai]

in lore pulse lasers are more accurate than regular lasers

in MWO, making a weapon PPFLD is how you increase the accuracy of a weapon

[Kuaron]

1. Lore is important, not stupid. Well, maybe it is stupid, but still important.

2. Giving the much heavier pulse lasers an advantage by nerfing (C-)ML is a good decision.

3. Increasing cooldown that only nerfs backup lasers on cold builds but barely touches heat-limited lasers boats is plainly stupid.

4. Increasing laser duration instead for the same laser variants would be the right call.

[Paigan]

Khobai, on 16 October 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

in lore pulse lasers are more accurate than regular lasers

in MWO, making a weapon PPFLD is how you increase the accuracy of a weapon

http://www.sarna.net...rge_Pulse_Laser
"Pulse lasers differ from traditional laser weaponry, in that instead of firing one powerful beam, they maintain laser beams fired off in quick succession."

Again: Life is not as simple as you think it is or want it to be. If you want to argue what pulse lasers are according to lore, it helps to LOOK UP FIRST what you are talking about. Not just talk about some half-true crippled statement.
(Are you a politician? )

Also again: I find the idea of one single PPFLD "pulse" pretty good. I just say it would break lore. Maybe the break would be small enough to be acceptable. Would be nice.

Edited by Paigan, 16 October 2017 - 06:56 AM.