21 replies to this topic

[Sunstruck]

This latest laser duration nerf is just proof that the last major laser heat rebalance was wrong. The medium lasers should have been left alone, with the heat higher than is was, but now we have medium lasers with cooldowns longer than PPCs. Does anyone even use small pulse lasers any more?

I didn't create the machine gun meta, I wonder who did?

[Vellron2005]

Nope.. have not mounted a pulse laser since.. Switched from smalls and pulse smalls to MGs on lights and even some mediums..

Mediums with a 5-6 second cooldown is bloody absurd..

Ok, the Heavy medium had the damage output of a large laser, so I could swallow the high cooldown.. but an ER medium?!

Just absurd..

[Paigan]

The limiting factor is heat, not cooldown.

What is weird, however, is that long cooldowns promote high alphas.
Cutting damage, heat and cooldown in half would preserve DpS and DpH but reduce alphaing.
Seems like PGI wants specifically to preserve high alphas.

Edited by Paigan, 16 October 2017 - 01:13 AM.

[Papaspud]

Not a problem, you just get your 80+ damage alpha clan mech and problem solved, get with the program man.

Go clans go!!!! No IS in MWOWC2018

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Paigan, on 16 October 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

The limiting factor is heat, not cooldown.

What is weird, however, is that long cooldowns promote high alphas.
Cutting damage, heat and cooldown in half would preserve DpS and DpH but reduce alphaing.
Seems like PGI wants specifically to preserve high alphas.

Agreed, except that on most lighter mechs cooldown very much is the limiting factor.
I don't heat up in the TDK too fast, nor in the jenner, or in the raven, or the spider, etc. etc.... All these mechs have their dps potential nerfed, while all they had damage-wise was dps. IS lights can't use big lasers properly, because the lightest big laser is 5 tons and 9 famage, so they all got nerfed, many of them to the state of total uselessness, while the only 'problematic' one was the Wolfhound-2, and that one was already nerfed last patch.

Also, medium laser was the go-to secondary weapon for mixed builds (tons of builds, especially the IS ones end up with spare tonnage you can't use to boat more main weapons, because these are too heavy, so you backup those with meds.). All these mechs get nerfed too.

And no, medium lasers wer not those backup weapons because they were soo good. They were the only not-useless small IS lasers.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 16 October 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Are you sure that it's not a proof that PGI is inept at doing balance?

[Darth Hotz]

Paigan, on 16 October 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

The limiting factor is heat, not cooldown.

What is weird, however, is that long cooldowns promote high alphas.
Cutting damage, heat and cooldown in half would preserve DpS and DpH but reduce alphaing.
Seems like PGI wants specifically to preserve high alphas.

Do I sense sympathy?

[Paigan]

Darth Hotz, on 16 October 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Do I sense sympathy?

Hu?
...
I could ask you to explain what you mean by that very short rhetorical question to confirm if you mean what I think you mean and reply accordingly.
But I don't care about whatever you mean in the first place.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Energy weapon patch update!

[SargeantShepard]

Jay Leon Hart, on 16 October 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

Energy weapon patch update!

Good, now maybe papaspud will stop his spamming.

In all seriuousness, I was willing to give the laser nerfs a shot, but Im biased as I tend to build my mechs around ballistics, but its good to see PGI listening to the community, but standing their ground somewhat.

Also, good to see the grasshopper not being nerfed.

[Revis Volek]

Darth Hotz, on 16 October 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Do I sense sympathy?

Stockholm syndrome

[El Bandito]

SargeantShepard, on 16 October 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Also, good to see the grasshopper not being nerfed.

Paul Inouye, on 16 October 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

The changes to the GHR-5H, GHR-5HC and GHR-5P were being made in anticipation of the original, global Energy change originally outlined the Patch Notes. As a result of the adjustments outlined above, we will not be going forward with those Grasshopper Quirk changes in the October patch.

I'm curious. Just how was GHR-5P's energy range nerf relevant to the laser cooldown nerf in the first place?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

If PGI were to do the opposite of what they did and give lasers short cooldowns but the same or higher heat then we'd make using small amounts of lasers viable and make boating a trade off. You either have enough cooling to put out nice laser damage over time or you have high alphas but you can't sustain at all if pushed. Basically how the pulse lasers vs regular laser should have been if PGI went a little further with their direction on pulse lasers.

It really seems that in general our idea of good isn't what PGI wants. PGI doesn't want there to actually be any *good* mechs, only all mediocre ones with mediocre weapons. UACs got nerfed, missiles got nerfed, lasers got nerfed, gauss and ppc got nerfed, now laser gets nerfed again after it was the only one that was holding up after the first nerf.

I think PGI is actually listening to the people who have asked for higher time to kill, as they've been nerfing weapons and weapon quirks left and right on any mech that gets a moment of fame.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 16 October 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

I think PGI is actually listening to the people who have asked for higher time to kill, as they've been nerfing weapons and weapon quirks left and right on any mech that gets a moment of fame.

I don't think so, cause no Clan mech was nerfed this patch.

[Shifty McSwift]

OP's definition of proof is different from Webster's.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

I don't think so, cause no Clan mech was nerfed this patch.

>"No Clan mech was nerfed this patch"
>CUAC5 heat increased
>CERML cooldown increased
>CHML cooldown increased
>ATM spread increased
>Artemis nerfed on both sides
>Lock on nerfed on both sides

???

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 16 October 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

>"No Clan mech was nerfed this patch"
>CUAC5 heat increased
>CERML cooldown increased
>CHML cooldown increased
>ATM spread increased
>Artemis nerfed on both sides
>Lock on nerfed on both sides

???

> isUAC/5 heat increased
> isERML cooldown increased
> isML cooldown increased
> MRMs not nerfed, but that's because they don't get Artemis and suck anyway

...and the Grasshopper was directly nerfed, but no Clan 'Mech was directly nerfed. In fact, they were only directly buffed.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 16 October 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

>"No Clan mech was nerfed this patch"
>CUAC5 heat increased
>CERML cooldown increased
>CHML cooldown increased
>ATM spread increased
>Artemis nerfed on both sides
>Lock on nerfed on both sides

???

My point still stands. Both sides' techs and IS mechs were nerfed (Grasshopper nerfs were later reverted cause players pointed out PGI's horsedung), but not Clan mechs, even though they are the chief culprit of las-vomit proliferation. I dunno what you were seeking to accomplish by trying to sound smart but failing.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 October 2017 - 09:03 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

My point still stands. Both sides' techs and IS mechs were nerfed (Grasshopper nerfs were later reverted cause players pointed out PGI's horsedung), but not Clan mechs, even though they are the chief culprit of las-vomit proliferation. I dunno what you were seeking to accomplish by trying to sound smart but failing.

My point is you were saying no clan mech was nerfed in this patch while any Clan mech that relied on the weapon classes I mentioned was nerfed, saying no clan mech was nerfed is rather deceptive. Either way though, both sides were nerfed. I don't see the point in bringing the whole IS vs Clan debate into this right now when both sides are nerfed instead of talk about alternatives to this nerf that would actually bring some balance rather than just stomp both sides down.

For example, my suggestion of decreasing the cooldown on lasers rather than increasing it while increasing the heat per shot of lasers, thus giving the IS an advantage with their generally colder per shot lasers so that they can put out 3 or so short range alphas in the time that a Clan mech would fire one medium range alpha that would be somewhat reduced in damage due to the higher heat gen, per shot. This way IS would entirely dominate short range engagements while Clans would fare better at long range while mid range is a toss up between large pulse lasers and ERMLs builds.

[MadRover]

Dakota1000, on 16 October 2017 - 09:15 PM, said:

My point is you were saying no clan mech was nerfed in this patch while any Clan mech that relied on the weapon classes I mentioned was nerfed, saying no clan mech was nerfed is rather deceptive. Either way though, both sides were nerfed. I don't see the point in bringing the whole IS vs Clan debate into this right now when both sides are nerfed instead of talk about alternatives to this nerf that would actually bring some balance rather than just stomp both sides down.

For example, my suggestion of decreasing the cooldown on lasers rather than increasing it while increasing the heat per shot of lasers, thus giving the IS an advantage with their generally colder per shot lasers so that they can put out 3 or so short range alphas in the time that a Clan mech would fire one medium range alpha that would be somewhat reduced in damage due to the higher heat gen, per shot. This way IS would entirely dominate short range engagements while Clans would fare better at long range while mid range is a toss up between large pulse lasers and ERMLs builds.

CDs don’t mean much if you can’t fire within the optimal which makes this whole point moot. Lowering how much damage a laser vomit alpha can do could help but we’ve already seen how PGI is going to handle it and it’s going to be the community bringing out the torches and pitchforks.

So for any balancing to actually work, PGI needs to start listening to the MWO community not on Reddit or Twitter, as in on this forum at this site. Otherwise we won’t get the kind of balance we’ve all been asking for.