197 replies to this topic

[Judah Malganis]

High alphas could be addressed with lower base dmg and faster cycling, making poke'n'hide more inefficient.

[BattleBunny]

Meh.

[Tordin]

Nice to see a response and action taken, regarding the patch and its worries.

However, besides the global nerfs to energy weapons and the worry that smaller lasers of any type will suffer.

Would like you to careful monitor those proposed Lock on and artemis changes aswell? LRM, Streaks and ATM are hampered enough as is. LRM and ATM with all the counters (low arc, obstacle hiding, ecm etc) against them meaning reduced usage and same with Streaks which are mostly useful against lights but not much else, maybe some tonnage bracket in the medium class.

[C E Dwyer]

BattleBunny, on 16 October 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Meh.

Seconded

While the reply is nice.
It still says to me, we're still going in the wrong direction nerfing the wrong parts, but because people are cancelling pre orders and the pitch forks are out, we're going to go in the wrong direction with less items.

[Bud Crue]

Still fairly disgusted. Sorry, but I can't help it.

You said you did a months long review of actual game play and as a result of that review we had the September "major balance pass". This, toned down or pulled back or whatever you want to call it October pass is STILL far more significant to game play in its effect than any of the nerfs you applied in September. WHY? What changed other than the new economy of screwing with stuff to force players to change mechs as they try to compensate for what you are doing here and will inevitably continue to do. It comes down to this:

If you expect us to believe that "there is an issue" with whatever that is supported by "observation, play, player feedback and metric monitoring" you should prove it. There is no reason not to share with us your metrics and prove to us that you have an understanding of what is going on and why with that which you claim is an "issue". There are no other MW games that will steal your secret balancing sauce. Prove it to us that you know what your doing by sharing with us your data that you claim is illustrating these oh so obvious issues and concerns. Otherwise I will continue to assume that you are doing this random dart board nonsense for no other reason than to drive a perpetual cbill sink of attempted meta shifting, which has NOTHING to do with balance.

In other words: I call BS on medium lasers being an over performing problem.

Edit: Oh, and leaving the Grasshoppers and their OP 5% bonuses is not the issue. The issue is that you and your "monitoring" think that removing quirks of any kind on some of the already most nerfed mechs in the game and one of the few IS mechs that can still perform at a high level is a good idea in the first place. You need to reevaluate your whole approach to this sort of balance nonsense.

Edited by Bud Crue, 16 October 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[Elegant and Sophisticated]

How about increasing the heat rate exponentially? The more lasers you fire, heat rises faster. Also, bigger lasers increase the heat rate significantly more than smaller lasers.

Big alpha laser boats would heat up practically instantly.

[M1Combat]

That's pretty much the ghost heat solution in a nutshell Hipo... The difference being that people combine different laser sizes to skirt around ghost heat.

Energy draw was a good solution IMO...

[Brain Cancer]

Given, medium lasers are the go-to weapon for an efficient blend of range, damage, and weight. It's backs up laservomit alphas a-plenty, ends up a secondary weapon on many builds as well. Thanks to the extended ranges (at reduced damage) we get in MWO, it has considerable reach.

Still think linking more stuff like large to medium laser tables (so vomit builds GH at 2-3 rather than effectively 5-6) might help. Alphas are what kill fast, and the bigger our alphas, the worse it gets.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Hipoalergeniko, on 16 October 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

How about increasing the heat rate exponentially? The more lasers you fire, heat rises faster. Also, bigger lasers increase the heat rate significantly more than smaller lasers.

Big alpha laser boats would heat up practically instantly.

What if I told you laserboats already can do just two alphas before hitting threshold?

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

ANd the brown seas complaints make them back off of changes big surprise, no cluster table complaint about missles or machineguns anyone?

[Jman5]

You guys know what you have to do, you're just afraid to do it. Tie the heat penalty for Medium and Large Laser variants together and you will fix the laser vomit alpha strike problem for good.

[CMetz]

In the grand scheme of things I really don't see how Grasshoppers are OP. Refer to the above chart of the MWOWC 2017. They didn't even make the list. Frankly, with the weight advantages that Clan mechs have and the fact that they can fit more DHS due to them only taking up 2 critical spaces I think that some 5% heat bonuses here and there are needed. I'm as much a fan of the lore as anyone, but some semblance of parity is required in a computer game. There should at least be some argument each way when top tier players are picking what mechs to play in a drop.

[Revis Volek]

Bud Crue, on 16 October 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Still fairly disgusted. Sorry, but I can't help it.

You said you did a months long review of actual game play and as a result of that review we had the September "major balance pass". This, toned down or pulled back or whatever you want to call it October pass is STILL far more significant to game play in its effect than any of the nerfs you applied in September. WHY? What changed other than the new economy of screwing with stuff to force players to change mechs as they try to compensate for what you are doing here and will inevitably continue to do. It comes down to this:

If you expect us to believe that "there is an issue" with whatever that is supported by "observation, play, player feedback and metric monitoring" you should prove it. There is no reason not to share with us your metrics and prove to us that you have an understanding of what is going on and why with that which you claim is an "issue". There are no other MW games that will steal your secret balancing sauce. Prove it to us that you know what your doing by sharing with us your data that you claim is illustrating these oh so obvious issues and concerns. Otherwise I will continue to assume that you are doing this random dart board nonsense for no other reason than to drive a perpetual cbill sink of attempted meta shifting, which has NOTHING to do with balance.

In other words: I call BS on medium lasers being an over performing problem.

Edit: Oh, and leaving the Grasshoppers and their OP 5% bonuses is not the issue. The issue is that you and your "monitoring" think that removing quirks of any kind on some of the already most nerfed mechs in the game and one of the few IS mechs that can still perform at a high level is a good idea in the first place. You need to reevaluate your whole approach to this sort of balance nonsense.

IF ER meds are over performing then why did they get back their 800M range not so long ago?

Why if they have been over performing, according to your hidden valley data, would you buff them at all in any way?



I smell a big fat lie, sorry PGI but i returned all 3 of my packs because i its very clear, once again, you have no idea what you are doing or you are not telling us what your motives really are and therefore i cannot makes sense of it. I wont even be mad if you told me "we change stuff because we dunno how to do anything else."

I thought id be nice and support ya's shame on me for thinking that was a good idea.

Edited by Revis Volek, 16 October 2017 - 02:19 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Dear Paul, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for nerfing the arcs of lock-on weapons.. It's hard enough to play LRMs as it is.. so please.. DO NOT nerf LRMs and ATMs..

There's really no need..

And as for Artemis nerfs.. I've NEVER in my years of LRM boating seen missiles hit only one component.. that's pure nonsense.. so please..

Just..

NO.

[dr3dnought]

And I had just finished rebuilding most of my IS mechs without mediums. Some are quite good but maybe now some will go back to how they were.

If I'm reading this right they're dropping the nerfs to small, medium pulse, and large lasers. The only laser nerfs are the IS ML and ERML, clan ERML and HML

If that's correct, the new CYCLE TIMES and (DPS) are:

IS SL 3.0 (1.08)
IS ML 4.4 (1.13)
IS LL 4.2 (2.14)

IS SPL 2.4 (1.46)
IS MPL 3.4 (1.77)
IS LPL 3.67 (2.73)

IS ERSL 3.5 (0.93)
IS ERML 4.9 (1.02)
IS ERLL 4.5 (2.00)

C SPL 2.5 (1.60)
C MPL 4.4 (1.80
C LPL 4.29 (2.80)

C ERSL 4.3 (1.16)
C ERML 5.75 (1.22)
C ERLL 5.1 (2.16)

C HSL 5.2 (1.25)
C HML 6.95 (1.44)
C HLL 7.3 (2.50)

So mediums that are getting nerfed are mostly cycling slower than larges of the same type, and still have very similar DPS to small lasers of the same type. Looks like I won't be reverting many builds after all.

[Magnus Santini]

There are IS brawlers with so few hardpoints that 2 MLs get thrown in as filler, and I understand they have to be balanced against two tag lasers. Since we cannot nerf number of hardpoints, or stop releasing over-hardpointed mechs, I say put ghost heat on any firing of 6 (or 3?) weapons in any combination, and set the ghost heat "cooldown" to 1 second. To prevent exploitation of the hardpoints. Then clan mechs will still be superstrong at different ranges, but not as able to be op at any range.

[Bud Crue]

And another thing:

You say you have "direct feedback" on energy balance. Fine. We all see it here, reddit, and Russ's twitter feed as well, and at least in the general sense.

Now, cite to me 1 thread, just one, since new tech or skills tree that states or even suggests that medium lasers are over performing in the eyes of the community. One thread where folks are really bent over the capabilities of 3ERML vs a Large Pulse laser (If you want I can direct you to multiple threads where people were bent over the nerfs to the Large Pulse though...ya considering THAT direct feedback?). Lemme know. Please include full citations.

Edited by Bud Crue, 16 October 2017 - 02:28 PM.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Mcgral18, on 16 October 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

Just look at MWOWC for further evidence...

cERPPC and Clan Laservomit were solid performers


Sphere?t
...not so much

Maybe I'm not seeing it, but where exactly are the grasshoppers on that chart?

Why was the grasshopper singled out? The grasshoppers primary armament is laser and it was all ready getting an indirect neff. How does nerfing the lasers make the grasshopper OP?

DOES an I.S. mechs need to be nerfed every patch just because?

Edited by The Nerf Bat, 16 October 2017 - 03:10 PM.

[panzer1b]

Thanks alot devs for being a bit more reasonable. That said, i really think you need to take a look at something like global ghost heat or so that kicks in if your total alfa strike exceeds some amount. Nothing is more annoying then having a ST go from 100% to orange internals with but 2 seconds of inattentiveness and a good enemy shot. There is nothing wrong with high alfas, but anything over 60 points (that is pinpoint and not spread everywhere like rockits) needs to incur heat penalties since its just too much (albeit id limit lasers to 50 points since 50 is enough to play pokewarrior, but it wont instantly devastate enemy mechs).

Its good that laser vomit has been noticed as way to strong (especially after clan heavys came out), but nerfing cooldowns of all things just wont solve the root problem, which is stupidly high alfa and not DPS (who the hell actually tries to outDPS an enemy woith lasers anyway?)...

Edited by panzer1b, 16 October 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Dee Eight]

The irony is of course... going from CBT... standard medium lasers have always been the ideal laser type and size. 270 meters of range for 1 ton, 1 crit, 3 heat, and 5 damage. Small lasers might have had the best damage to heat ratio but at 90 meters their range sucked. Large lasers had more range but that came at the expense of only equal heat to damage, for a lot more weapon mass. Except in this game where CBT rules don't matter in the dart board of balance destiny.