123 replies to this topic

[Nema Nabojiv]

If anything, they should really do something with large pulses.
They are doing to little for their weight I doubt that nerfing ERMLs will make pulses more viable choice.

Now if they had about 0.1 burn time that would be a good trade for weight. That or low heat low cooldown dps weapon.

[Lux Monolithic]

Lordhammer, on 18 October 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Nah, you thinking only those stats are relevant is the proof.

You thinking those stats aren't relevant prove you have little understanding of the game.

[Baba Yogi]

Illuminous Owl, on 18 October 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

You thinking those stats aren't relevant prove you have little understanding of the game.

It is funny how a single word changes a meaning of a sentence. Perhaps you should have payed attention to your english class. If you did not understand which one i'll spell it out for you. The word "only" emphasizes the fact that you are choosing parts of a whole that suit you and ignore the rest as if they are not important. The fact that you dont find it important or just ignore for your post's sake means your suggestion is worthless. In fact one weapon system has .67 duration and the other 1.45 sec doesnt seem significant to you nor the massive ready-to-fire difference between weapon systems, which can let one weapon system fire twice while opposition can return fire only once and ineffectually. Ignoring these means you are not using one weapon system as they should be used and complain why it doesnt play out as you want to. This time perhaps you should think first before you reply.

Edited by Lordhammer, 18 October 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Lordhammer, on 18 October 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

It is funny how a single word changes a meaning of a sentence. Perhaps you should have payed attention to your english class. If you did not understand which one i'll spell it out for you. The word "only" emphasizes the fact that you are choosing parts of a whole that suit you and ignore the rest as if they are not important. The fact that you dont find it important or just ignore for your post's sake means your suggestion is worthless. In fact one weapon system has .67 duration and the other 1.45 sec doesnt seem significant to you nor the massive ready-to-fire difference between weapon systems, which can let one weapon system fire twice while opposition can return fire only once and ineffectually. Ignoring these means you are not using one weapon system as they should be used and complain why it doesnt play out as you want to. This time perhaps you should think first before you reply.

Except, again, the comparison is disingenuous. For the same tonnage as 2 or 3 LPLs I can mount a mix of HLLs and HMLs plus extra DHS and still beat you damage/tic, with extra damage to spare. Your faster cooldown only matters if I'm inexplicably standing around in the open and not back in cover until I'm ready to fire again. The advantages of the IS LPL are like the "better crits" on the LB5X vs a UAC5. Yes, in theory it has perks but they're significantly outweighed by other options.

Take a LL and 2 ERLL instead. Hotter but more useful overall.

[Lux Monolithic]

Lordhammer, on 18 October 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

It is funny how a single word changes a meaning of a sentence. Perhaps you should have payed attention to your english class. If you did not understand which one i'll spell it out for you. The word "only" emphasizes the fact that you are choosing parts of a whole that suit you and ignore the rest as if they are not important. The fact that you dont find it important or just ignore for your post's sake means your suggestion is worthless. In fact one weapon system has .67 duration and the other 1.45 sec doesnt seem significant to you nor the massive ready-to-fire difference between weapon systems, which can let one weapon system fire twice while opposition can return fire only once and ineffectually. Ignoring these means you are not using one weapon system as they should be used and complain why it doesnt play out as you want to. This time perhaps you should think first before you reply.

I am choosing to focus on the simple and obvious facts of 1 ton 10dmg Vs. 7 tons 10dmg. The details of the weapon, duration, cooldown, etc are not in focus here because they do not affect weapon performance or efficiency nearly as drastically as the difference in tonnage requirements vs. damage output. Your snotty and arrogant/condescending replies are getting annoying.

Edited by Illuminous Owl, 18 October 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[Lances107]

Op I have one simple question for you. Do you and others like you have the ability to not complain for one day about something the clan has? Is that even possible for you?

[MadRover]

MischiefSC, on 18 October 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

So 21 tons for 3 LPLs. That means you could take 3hmls and 19 extra DHS - more than you can fit. 3HMLs for the same damage is so much more efficient you literally dont need to limit yourself that way, you should take even more weapons and still have way more DHS than the 3LPL version.

It's rarely an issue because the HLL is same range as LPL, 2 tons lighter and CDHS being smaller does 2x the damage and runs cooler. So for the same tonnage as 3 LPLs I can do 2 HLLs, 2HMLs and 9 DHS for 2x the damage and better actual cooling at about the same range. Even with "shorter burn time" (lol) I will still beat you damage/tic.

That’s only if your shooting all of it at optimal ranges and don’t get too zealous and cook yourself to death. If you’re not, then the isLPLs will win because getting DPSed to death with proper heat management is not fun while you sit and wait to shoot back.

[The Lighthouse]

Lances107, on 18 October 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Op I have one simple question for you. Do you and others like you have the ability to not complain for one day about something the clan has? Is that even possible for you?

We won't have that ability for ever until the game is balanced.

[MischiefSC]

MadRover, on 18 October 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

That’s only if your shooting all of it at optimal ranges and don’t get too zealous and cook yourself to death. If you’re not, then the isLPLs will win because getting DPSed to death with proper heat management is not fun while you sit and wait to shoot back.

Except because I have 9 more DHS I will also cool way more quickly.

[Jun Watarase]

>this thread

If all we do is compare one aspect of a weapon while ignoring everything else, then i can do this to make pretty much anything look OP. Watch this :

SRM-6 : 3 tons for 12.9 damage
LRM-10 : 5 tons for 10 damage

SRMs OP right? You pay 2 tons less for 2.9 more damage!

2x medium lasers : 2 tons for 10 damage
1 large laser : 4 tons for 9 damage

Medium lasers OP!

MG : 0.5 tons for 0 heat
ER LL : 4 tons for 8 heat

MGs OP!

Any comparison of IS and clan weapons have to include quirks as PGI insists on using them as balancing mechanisms despite being repeatedly told that it is a bad idea.

The IS LPL is one of the most OP weapons in the game because it has decent range, damage, great heat efficiency and most important, a very low burn duration. Lasers were initially balanced vs ballistics by burn durations, ballistics (at that time) were all PPFLD, which is a HUGE advantage. Laser spread meant that for every point of damage on paper, it was less effective unless you were firing at stationery targets, and it meant more exposure time. When you have burn durations of 0.5s or less (via skill nodes/quirks), lasers **** all over ballistics.

Just compare 2x LPL vs 1 AC20. Is it any wonder that most people would rather boat 3x LPL than any other combination when making a build for mid to short range?

The LPL has roughly a 100m range advantage over the HML. Its like the range advantage of the LL over the IS ER-ML. In real world conditions, what actually happens is that the LPL boat will fire then torso twist and tank the HMLs with shield arms. The clan mech has no counter to this. You cannot stop someone from torso twisting. And because the pulse boat is doing more or less 100% of its damage to the location of its choice and its weapons cycle faster/are more heat efficient, it wins. Anyone that torso twists (especially with shield arms) basically laughs at heavy lasers. High duration lasers are terrible for brawling, and HMLs are brawling range.

[MadRover]

MischiefSC, on 18 October 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Except because I have 9 more DHS I will also cool way more quickly.

Still need to be able to dunk all that alpha within optimal range. You can cool down all you want as long as the guy with 3isLPLs stays away from 400m. It’s just not a practical build anyway.

[Lux Monolithic]

Lances107, on 18 October 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Op I have one simple question for you. Do you and others like you have the ability to not complain for one day about something the clan has? Is that even possible for you?

I am not complaining about something the Clan has. I am saying that the IS LPL is too heavy for the damage. If you would have read the posts you would know that I specifically said I didn't think the HML was OP and that I like IS and Clan equally.

Jun Watarase, on 18 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

>this thread

If all we do is compare one aspect of a weapon while ignoring everything else, then i can do this to make pretty much anything look OP. Watch this :

SRM-6 : 3 tons for 12.9 damage
LRM-10 : 5 tons for 10 damage

SRMs OP right? You pay 2 tons less for 2.9 more damage!

2x medium lasers : 2 tons for 10 damage
1 large laser : 4 tons for 9 damage

Medium lasers OP!

MG : 0.5 tons for 0 heat
ER LL : 4 tons for 8 heat

MGs OP!

Any comparison of IS and clan weapons have to include quirks as PGI insists on using them as balancing mechanisms despite being repeatedly told that it is a bad idea.

The IS LPL is one of the most OP weapons in the game because it has decent range, damage, great heat efficiency and most important, a very low burn duration. Lasers were initially balanced vs ballistics by burn durations, ballistics (at that time) were all PPFLD, which is a HUGE advantage. Laser spread meant that for every point of damage on paper, it was less effective unless you were firing at stationery targets, and it meant more exposure time. When you have burn durations of 0.5s or less (via skill nodes/quirks), lasers **** all over ballistics.

Just compare 2x LPL vs 1 AC20. Is it any wonder that most people would rather boat 3x LPL than any other combination when making a build for mid to short range?

The LPL has roughly a 100m range advantage over the HML. Its like the range advantage of the LL over the IS ER-ML. In real world conditions, what actually happens is that the LPL boat will fire then torso twist and tank the HMLs with shield arms. The clan mech has no counter to this. You cannot stop someone from torso twisting. And because the pulse boat is doing more or less 100% of its damage to the location of its choice and its weapons cycle faster/are more heat efficient, it wins. Anyone that torso twists (especially with shield arms) basically laughs at heavy lasers. High duration lasers are terrible for brawling, and HMLs are brawling range.

You're assuming players do a perfect twist at every shot. That's ludicrous. And I am not saying anything is OP... if you would have read the posts. I think the IS LPL is too heavy for the damage.

[MischiefSC]

MadRover, on 18 October 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Still need to be able to dunk all that alpha within optimal range. You can cool down all you want as long as the guy with 3isLPLs stays away from 400m. It’s just not a practical build anyway.

Doesn't matter where he is. 2hlls and 2hmls has more DPS, better cooling and 2x the alpha.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

You're assuming players do a perfect twist at every shot. That's ludicrous.

Uh....even the mediocre units in FP know to torso twist after every alpha, let alone top tier competitive players.

I mean, I guess if you are playing in tier 5 where most people dont torso twist, then HMLs would be OP i guess...like LRMs...

[MischiefSC]

Jun Watarase, on 18 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

>this thread

If all we do is compare one aspect of a weapon while ignoring everything else, then i can do this to make pretty much anything look OP. Watch this :

SRM-6 : 3 tons for 12.9 damage
LRM-10 : 5 tons for 10 damage

SRMs OP right? You pay 2 tons less for 2.9 more damage!

2x medium lasers : 2 tons for 10 damage
1 large laser : 4 tons for 9 damage

Medium lasers OP!

MG : 0.5 tons for 0 heat
ER LL : 4 tons for 8 heat

MGs OP!

Any comparison of IS and clan weapons have to include quirks as PGI insists on using them as balancing mechanisms despite being repeatedly told that it is a bad idea.

The IS LPL is one of the most OP weapons in the game because it has decent range, damage, great heat efficiency and most important, a very low burn duration. Lasers were initially balanced vs ballistics by burn durations, ballistics (at that time) were all PPFLD, which is a HUGE advantage. Laser spread meant that for every point of damage on paper, it was less effective unless you were firing at stationery targets, and it meant more exposure time. When you have burn durations of 0.5s or less (via skill nodes/quirks), lasers **** all over ballistics.

Just compare 2x LPL vs 1 AC20. Is it any wonder that most people would rather boat 3x LPL than any other combination when making a build for mid to short range?

The LPL has roughly a 100m range advantage over the HML. Its like the range advantage of the LL over the IS ER-ML. In real world conditions, what actually happens is that the LPL boat will fire then torso twist and tank the HMLs with shield arms. The clan mech has no counter to this. You cannot stop someone from torso twisting. And because the pulse boat is doing more or less 100% of its damage to the location of its choice and its weapons cycle faster/are more heat efficient, it wins. Anyone that torso twists (especially with shield arms) basically laughs at heavy lasers. High duration lasers are terrible for brawling, and HMLs are brawling range.

Nobody uses LPLs anymore because you're wrong. DPS, damage/tic, heat sustainability, with heavy lasers now I can for the same tonnage make a vastly better laserboat with Clan lasers.

Nobody has taken LPLs for trading for a while now. Since new tech and the last LPL nerf that came a couple months ago. Now you're better off with LLs and ermls.

[MadRover]

MischiefSC, on 18 October 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Doesn't matter where he is. 2hlls and 2hmls has more DPS, better cooling and 2x the alpha.

Mischief I know youre better than this. HMLs are not brawling weapons. Not very good ones at least.

[MischiefSC]

MadRover, on 18 October 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

Mischief I know youre better than this. HMLs are not brawling weapons. Not very good ones at least.

Alone? No. Well, yes and no. 2 HLLs and 2 HMLs is a passable brawling loadout you can poke with. The 21 tons for 3 LPLs makes for 2 HLLs and 2 HMLs and nine extra DHS. That will out perform 3 LPLs in damage/tic, DPS, 2x the alpha and heat management. However if you want brawling you could do 8 MPLs and 5 extra DHS and, again, destroy 3 IS LPLs in DPS, alpha and heat management for the same tonnage.

The only reason HMLs are not used for brawling is they don't have to be, because Clans have even better brawling laser loadouts for the same tonnage.

That's the whole point. Lpls have been bad since the nerf prior to this one and they were barely adequate then the same patch left cmpls a better choice for the tonnage than clpls and HvyLas of all sizes are insane performers for the tonnage.

There's a couple IS mechs that can do a decent gaussvomit but pure laservomit? You're at a real disadvantage now. Have been for a while.

[dr3dnought]

MadRover, on 18 October 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

That’s only if your shooting all of it at optimal ranges and don’t get too zealous and cook yourself to death. If you’re not, then the isLPLs will win because getting DPSed to death with proper heat management is not fun while you sit and wait to shoot back.

You concede the argument here with 'only if'

IS LPL will beat Clan heavy lasers 'only if' the Clan heavy laser player is bad (out of range, cooks himself, sits and waits) and the IS LPL player is good (at optimal range, proper heat management)

You should assume both players are good.

[FupDup]

If only the IS LPL had 11 damage or something.

Nah, that would be cray-cray.

[Kiiyor]

Illuminous Owl, on 18 October 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Clan Heavy Medium - 10dmg, 1 ton, 270m
IS Large Pulse - 10dmg, 7 ton, 365m

This is ridiculous. 7 Tons for the same damage and only slightly more range!? Honestly, how is IS expected to compete at all with that? We all know its alpha strike peeking that dominates this game. IS have limited energy hardpoints and no omnis. I mean this is just blatantly stupid. 7 tons? So my Catapult has to use 21 tons to equal 30dmg where a Clan mech only uses 3 tons? O_O (Has far better cooling, more hardpoints, higher mounted, faster)

I have been playing this game a long time, but I just feel the need to talk about this because its so incredibly stupid. Why would anyone ever play IS? Most of the mechs are just plain inferior, and drastically so.

I am of the opinion that there should at least be a discernable advantage to take IS over Clan, that allows the adaptation of a different playstyle to narrow the gap against Clan.

I enjoy playing both sides, but this is just plain stupid.

You forgot about heat, duration and cooldown!