32 replies to this topic

[StaticStorm]

krevLL, on 24 October 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Are you locked or did you hit R to target the mech? Lock is a red circle that animates over a targeted mech when you hold the reticle over it, target is the red box around the mech that eventually gives you sensor data.

Protip; if you have tonnage for it use a TC mk1 + active probe to stack lock time reductions

About the protip - I've seen this said, and would love clarification. It's my understanding from the description that probes only increase targeting data time, AKA the time it takes for the box showing the mech's health and components. It's noted poorly below as targeting boost, but I don't think it helps lock times at all. Also, people seem convinced that the clan probe counters ECM, and it's not in the description, versus it being in the description of the IS beagle probe. I assume it's left out because it does NOT counter ECM for the clan. I'm not sure if anyone's run tests to get the data down for sure, and god forbid PGI give accurate well worded descriptions so we know what things do. Lastly, I don't think the targeting computer helps locks either. I'm pretty sure the only things that help clan lock times are tag, narc, and artemis.

Also... why won't tag reliably counter ECM as written, and no, it's not because of failing to keep target "painted" The icon was over its head the whole time, but no lock reticle forms. If it's because of multiple ECMs, that should not apply, as tag is a physical target selection, and makes no use of electrical signals. I understand how that might affect narc, as it has to broadcast, but tag should always lead to a lockable target if maintained.

Edited by StaticStorm, 24 October 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[krevLL]

StaticStorm, on 24 October 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

About the protip - I've seen this said, and would love clarification. It's my understanding from the description that probes only increase targeting data time, AKA the time it takes for the box showing the mech's health and components. It's noted poorly below as targeting boost, but I don't think it helps lock times at all. Also, people seem convinced that the clan probe counters ECM, and it's not in the description, versus it being in the description of the IS beagle probe. I assume it's left out because it does NOT counter ECM for the clan. I'm not sure if anyone's run tests to get the data down for sure, and god forbid PGI give accurate well worded descriptions so we know what things do. Lastly, I don't think the targeting computer helps locks either. I'm pretty sure the only things that help clan lock times are tag, narc, and artemis.

Also... why won't tag reliably counter ECM as written, and no, it's not because of failing to keep target "painted" The icon was over its head the whole time, but no lock reticle forms. If it's because of multiple ECMs, that should not apply, as tag is a physical target selection, and makes no use of electrical signals. I understand how that might affect narc, as it has to broadcast, but tag should always lead to a lockable target if maintained.

Can't answer the TAG question, and you know what, you're right. It says nothing about lock times but I swear to god it makes a difference. Can't find anything to back my claim up short of academy testing which I may do... Next time I run anything that locks on...

The Clan AP does counter ECM like the BAP though, even if it's not in the description. Unless that changed in a recent patch.

[StaticStorm]

It seems like there's a lot of confusion about what affects locking mechanics, and especially when it comes to ECM and countering ECM. Maybe we should ask for a run down from PGI, and see if we could get an updated post about the mechanics.

(It would help us to report things that may not be working properly, if we knew how it should work.)

Edited by StaticStorm, 24 October 2017 - 05:04 PM.

[Void Angel]

Regardless, as a Light pilot I can tell you without a doubt that Streaks are lock-on weapons. They will home on their target. They are the bane of Light 'mechs everywhere. Now, you might be unable to fire your streaks unless pointed at the target - they just overhauled the mechanics - specifically to make it harder for people to fire locking weapons around corners (and to make Streaks less of an "Iwin" button against Lights) - so they might just work that way now. However - you are not getting a flat trajectory unless you are firing at an unmoving target. Your Streaks will hit, they will home in on random "bones" in your target's model (they do not target limbs first and work inward, by the way,) and they will maneuver to do that.

The only way you will get non-homing fire from Streaks is if there is a serious bug in that game system - take video and send it to Support.

Edited by Void Angel, 24 October 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Void Angel]

StaticStorm, on 24 October 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

It seems like there's a lot of confusion about what affects locking mechanics, and especially when it comes to ECM and countering ECM. Maybe we should ask for a run down from PGI, and see if we could get an updated post about the mechanics.

(It would help us to report things that may not be working properly, if we knew how it should work.)

Let me still see if I have the relevant posts... I should have saved the link from the last time I explained all this. =)
Here's the Latest Official Word on ECM's general interaction with sensors. Note that sensor ranges are likely to be different now, but this doesn't matter - PGI's numbers are not hard-coded, but the result of how the system works:

ECM does several things: it reduces the effective sensor range of enemy 'mechs against friendly 'mechs in its range by a certain percentage; it disables target information sharing against enemy 'mechs in its range; and it dramatically slows target information acquisition and lock-on for any enemy that is still able to lock a target inside ECM's "bubble" - this last is almost never seen in practice. Normally, ECM is either in effect and blocking locks, or totally canceled.

There are several counters available for ECM, hard and soft. PPC-class weapons will disable it for a few seconds, and NARC cancels ECM jamming on a target equipped with it (meaning if I'm NARCed my ECM suite stops working) ang burns through any amount of ECM, while UAVs also cancel ECM protection. Otherwise, the basic system of active probes and ECM (in counter-ecm mode) canceling the nearest enemy system is in place.

Active probes do not, if I recall (my game is down right now, so I can't test it - but you can check in the Academy easily enough,) increase lock speed. They increase the rate at which target information accrues at any given range, they counter the nearest jamming enemy ECM within their listed range in Smurfy, and they increase the equipped 'mech's sensor range by a percentage (25% for both original models, 15% for the Clans' Light Active Probe.) This is an important interaction with ECM, particularly if the ECM player doesn't have the relevant pilot skills selected. If I equip ECM with no skills, and you have an 800m sensor range, I'm only reducing your range by 30% - thus you can detect me on sensors and lock on at 560m. If you have a Clan Active Probe, that bonus is added to your total sensor range before this calculation, so your total effective sensor range against me and anyone under my bubble is 700m. On the other hand, if I had both skill points, my sensor reduction would go back up to the system's traditional value of 75% - your sensor range against me would be a whopping 200m, or 250 with the CAP.

It's been a long time since I hashed all this out, and I can't find my old links, so take some of this with a grain of salt. However, while I might be misremembering a few nuts and bolts, this is in general how ECM systems work.

[The Basilisk]

StaticStorm, on 24 October 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

About the protip - I've seen this said, and would love clarification. It's my understanding from the description that probes only increase targeting data time, AKA the time it takes for the box showing the mech's health and components. It's noted poorly below as targeting boost, but I don't think it helps lock times at all. Also, people seem convinced that the clan probe counters ECM, and it's not in the description, versus it being in the description of the IS beagle probe. I assume it's left out because it does NOT counter ECM for the clan. I'm not sure if anyone's run tests to get the data down for sure, and god forbid PGI give accurate well worded descriptions so we know what things do. Lastly, I don't think the targeting computer helps locks either. I'm pretty sure the only things that help clan lock times are tag, narc, and artemis.

Also... why won't tag reliably counter ECM as written, and no, it's not because of failing to keep target "painted" The icon was over its head the whole time, but no lock reticle forms. If it's because of multiple ECMs, that should not apply, as tag is a physical target selection, and makes no use of electrical signals. I understand how that might affect narc, as it has to broadcast, but tag should always lead to a lockable target if maintained.

The only things that are speeding up lock on time of LRMs and SSRMs are TAG, ARTEMIS and NARC.
Targeting computer do not influence LRMs in ANY way.

Also B-Probe and C-Probe do counter ONE ECM in their direct vicinity.
TAG will break through ECM shield on DISTANT ECMs but if the TAG carrier is inside the enemy ECM range its primary sensor systems are influenced by ECM and TAG can not do anything anymore since the reciving part of the carrier mech gets jammed by the ECMs emmisions.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

"Also... why won't tag reliably counter ECM as written, and no, it's not because of failing to keep target "painted" The icon was over its head the whole time, but no lock reticle forms."

There is or was bug with tag that didn't counter completely stealt armor.

https://clips.twitch...amosaKappaPride


If you are being jammed by ECM mech your entire hud will flicker, and you won't be able to aquire lock, even if you can target an enemy. That happens on the 80/90 meter range of ECM mech, I forgot which range is is,same for both IS and Clan ECMs.

But it's fairly clear then that you are being jammed.


Of general topic streaks are fairly weak because of their requirement to be exposed to enemy for relatively long time for the damage you are able to do. They may work on lower tiers but on higher tiers you won't see much of them. Even Clan streaks which have better range still suck.

SRMs are much better.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 25 October 2017 - 04:55 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

if TAG is not producing a lock there are 3 likely reasons:

you are within an enemy ECM bubble, TAG does not shut down ECM it just makes a Mech under ECM targatable, so if the Mech you are TAGing is withing 90m of you the TAG does nothing, and if the enemy manage to sneek an ECM Mech close to you then you will not be able to get a lock on the target wven with TAG on it

you are out of range ^{(regular TAG maxes out at 750m, there is also a Clan light TAG with 450m range)}

you have something else locked



Void Angel gave a pretty good breakdown of ECM counters above but there is something he forgot to mention
NARC shuts down the ECM on the Mech it hits, but a NARC can itself be shutdown by being in proximity of an active ECM, if the enemy have multiple ECM Mechs close to each other you would have to NARC them all to get a lock on any of them

[Doctadoone]

Like said above streaks are mainly a pretty good light mech counter. Against slow mediums and larger mechs the difference between a streak and a regular SRM is pretty unnoticable due to the range they are fired at and the speed of both the mech and the missile. However on lights that frequently move horizontally, unless you're a really good shot SRMs can be unreliable if you lead just a little to short or too long. Streaks will almost ALWAYS hit.

[mogs01gt]

Bottom line, do not use missiles right now. First learn how to use laser vomit to help understand twisting and shielding, then use ballistics on specific mechs. Missiles are hard more because they are vastly inferior.

[The Cyberserker]

iofhua, on 18 October 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

I'm a little pissed right now. I spent a pile of money to upgrade the SRM's on my mech to Streaks because they were advertised as homing missiles. It says in the description that they never miss their target. Researching streaks on the wiki says they have guidance.

There is no guidance. They fly in a flat trajectory. You have to point your crosshair at the target AND have the target locked, or they won't fire.

What I wanted was to lock a target, point where-ever, and have the missiles home in on the target. Guided missiles. Exactly what was written in the product description.

What we have with streaks is you're paying extra tonnage for missiles with a safety mechanism for stupid people. "point this end at the enemy or it won't fire"

All missiles in MWO lock by holding your crosshair in the general vicinity of the target. That includes LRMs and ATMs. The benefit of streaks is that you don't need to lead your shots manually and you don't have to worry about spread making some go wide and miss. They do in fact follow the target and are fantastic for killing lights. You just can't launch them at a 90 degree angle.

[arcana75]

If you're using Streaks, BAP is useful, cuz when your enemy shuts down due to heat, you can still lock onto them and fire your streaks. Without the BAP, you can't lock onto a powered down mech thus you can't fire streaks at him. Plus BAP increases your radar range, so you can select a target using R from further out and get the missile lock before you close in to fire.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Well no, if your primary or worse, only weapon is streaks, you will need probe or tag, as without it, any single ECM mech will come next to you, under 90 meters, and his ECM will jam your locking completely.