259 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

I too don't particularly care for crit based systems, it is similar to the reasoning I think UACs are conceptually just too strong, as many approach it as a double or nothing sort of deal, which quite simply results in dealing either way too much damage or just wiffing out, which directly effects your team and enemies too.

Minimising RNG in combat is the best path IMO mainly just because the reality of player vs player combat is often random enough.

[Koniving]

Shifty McSwift, on 21 October 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

That is a very interesting thought on how to apply that clan honor disadvantage idea to at least missile systems through their functionality, and I quite like that notion of IS missiles min range being about the arc, instead of missiles hilariously bouncing off mechs like nerf darts, they just land at 180m (possibly hitting other mechs).

A good example of this can be found here.
This 100 ton tank (and the insta-gibbed 25 ton Commando) are up against 8 Enforcers and one Atlas with quad LBX. The tank is tracked.

The tank gets 5 complete kills, 3 kills by disable/non-functional/ineffective before it is itself destroyed. 8 out of 9 enemies.

Its weapons? Twin AC/10s and 4 LRM-5s. The fire at everybody spazz shot you see is from targeting multiple enemies and firing those LRMs while the turret's twin AC/10s focus down (and obliterate) the Atlas.


At the time of the screenshot, Most of the area is flat but they are moving surfaces with raising and lowering pillars. Red indicates pillars about to move down in the next 10 seconds. Green indicates pillars about to move up. Green arrows are my firing solutions. Note the ranges in hexes are 30 meters per hex. Several within minimum range.

My tank for reference.

I am using the Armor variant in Megamek, stock, which has more armor than a 100 ton mech can carry at the cost of firepower. It has 4 LRM-5s mounted on the front of the hull and two AC/10s mounted on the turret. I am immobile due to the right track being destroyed.

The only one I could not hit is the guy behind me. Every other one had at least one missile from the volley of 5 hit. In fact after this screenshot, the guy up close to my front left (bottom of screen) loses his knee actuator due to 5 arrows, er uh... missiles. Seriously though he loses his lower leg actuator and soon after becomes ineffective by destroying itself in failed attempts to stand.

Edit, I say 'behind me' because eventually that's where he ends up, but at the time of the shot he's just too close and too far to my tank's right side.

Now imagine the flight path of these missiles if they must arc upwards first. The complete miss behind me is due to the inability to make that turn in time.

Now look at the turning capability of these OLD "overpowered" CT only streaks.

Imagine something between that and the current turning ability of LRMs.
Perhaps like this with the Spider?

Or if the Clan LRMs keep the current arc... what if the IS had this arc?

Edited by Koniving, 21 October 2017 - 01:31 PM.

[davoodoo]

I dont mind certain aspects of rng like spread, random crits assuming long enough time for x% chance to result in x% damage increase, hell even uac jam isnt that bad when its under 25%.

[Koniving]

Shifty McSwift, on 21 October 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

I too don't particularly care for crit based systems, it is similar to the reasoning I think UACs are conceptually just too strong, as many approach it as a double or nothing sort of deal, which quite simply results in dealing either way too much damage or just wiffing out, which directly effects your team and enemies too.

Minimising RNG in combat is the best path IMO mainly just because the reality of player vs player combat is often random enough.

Hypothetical thread used two things to address that.

One: Sub-hitbox system with crits in their actual locations, hit by skill not by dice. Much like shooting an enemy cannon in War Thunder.

Two: TacOps Rapid Fire Autocannons rule.
UACs are designed to fire in standard and Ultra (double) speeds. ACs are not. But in an over time system rather than all at once, you could expend two shell cassettes (aka magazines of bullets) almost as quickly by ignoring the weapon cooling time. This is supported with the three tier heat system (Equipment Heat, Heatsinks, Mech/Engine). In other words weapons have their own heat bars which pump into heatsinks at a given rate (which declined as the heat sinks flood with heat and restore as the heatsinks dissipate heat).
So provided the reload is fast enough you could churn the weapon again within that time you could match a UAC. However if you fire too soon after reloading, the heat gauge could fill too much and risk temporarily disabling the weapon, or fill too much and permanently warp the barrel requiring repair. Firing after that would cause it to go boom. (There's actually a list of malfunctions).

UACs in that design are also subject to it but the timing is a bit more forgiving and would only happen if you kept doing it.

In terms of the constant feed variety (no magazine downtime) which work like RACs in MWO (and was written out a year ahead of RACs to include the weapons heating up as they fire leading to jams) would churn damage slower than their burst firing counterparts but with no down time they only need to stop due to the heat system and issues such as barrel warping, chamber expansion causing feed malfunctions, etc. would lock it down.

(The same heat system is applied to all weapons for varying effects.)

I'm not gonna get into it unless asked, but also had other factors helping to differentiate UACs from ACs in light of standard ACs being able to double fire in a time slice at the higher risks.

Edited by Koniving, 21 October 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

davoodoo, on 21 October 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

I dont mind certain aspects of rng like spread, random crits assuming long enough time for x% chance to result in x% damage increase, hell even uac jam isnt that bad when its under 25%.

Yeah, it exists enough in the mechanics of weapons and conditions of battle, and sort of has to exist in essence for things to be at all interesting, but just minimising it, with UACs for example if the extreme of it wasn't so high the negative aspects wouldn't have to be either.

[Shifty McSwift]

Koniving, on 21 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

Hypothetical thread used two things to address that.

One: Sub-hitbox system with crits in their actual locations, hit by skill not by dice. Much like shooting an enemy cannon in War Thunder.

Two: TacOps Rapid Fire Autocannons rule.
UACs are designed to fire in standard and Ultra (double) speeds. ACs are not. But in an over time system rather than all at once, you could expend two shell cassettes (aka magazines of bullets) almost as quickly by ignoring the weapon cooling time. This is supported with the three tier heat system (Equipment Heat, Heatsinks, Mech/Engine). In other words weapons have their own heat bars which pump into heatsinks at a given rate (which declined as the heat sinks flood with heat and restore as the heatsinks dissipate heat).
So provided the reload is fast enough you could churn the weapon again within that time you could match a UAC. However if you fire too soon after reloading, the heat gauge could fill too much and risk temporarily disabling the weapon, or fill too much and permanently warp the barrel requiring repair. Firing after that would cause it to go boom. (There's actually a list of malfunctions).

UACs in that design are also subject to it but the timing is a bit more forgiving and would only happen if you kept doing it.

In terms of the constant feed variety (no magazine downtime) which work like RACs in MWO (and was written out a year ahead of RACs to include the weapons heating up as they fire leading to jams would churn damage slower but with no down time they only need to stop due to the heat system and issues such as barrel warping, chamber expansion causing feed malfunctions, etc. would lock it down.)

(The same heat system is applied to all weapons for varying effects.)

I'm not gonna get into it unless asked, but also had other factors helping to differentiate UACs from ACs in light of standard ACs being able to double fire in a time slice at the higher risks.

Yeah if option 1 were possible that would be best I think.

I am not sure if I like that second idea entirely but there's definitely some interesting aspects there.

[Nightbird]

While I would love more details in the mechanics and visuals (armor melting or blowing off to reveal internal equipment in their correct slots, which can be damaged directly and explode in a satisfying manner), realistically these will have to be in the next MW game. I don't mean MW5

That been said, I'm, just hoping we can do what's needed to balance the IS/Clan stuff so we can develop more important things, like a real FP mode with galactic map management.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 October 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

PGI wants pulse to be DPS lasers? Then turn them into continuous strobes, e.g.

Nightbird, on 19 October 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

I see a 1 sec cool down as an opportunistic weapon. For you, it is always ready to fire. For your enemy, it's never safe to twist back.

Sure, and a good player would utilise such weapon types to their best advantage, I just worry about the nature of having too many face time weapons, leading to bad noob behaviours and general staring competitions, also they come across as too rewarding to certain mechs and situations, particularly lighter mechs.

I don't know, it would be cool to see how that actual dps strobe effect played out at least, despite my concerns I can see the kind of benefits it would bring.

[Koniving]

Shifty McSwift, on 21 October 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yeah if option 1 were possible that would be best I think.

I am not sure if I like that second idea entirely but there's definitely some interesting aspects there.

The second idea is part of a far more complex "real time translation of lore and tabletop into simulation". If you read into things like the 80 ton Goliath Quad Mech... you will notice that it both praises and chastises the mech's machine guns.. Praise due to incredible accuracy and flexibility in their mounts... and then chastise because they are prone to OVERHEATINg and JAMMING.

Machine guns... In Battletech.
Overheating?
Jamming?

And it goes on to all sorts of craziness. But basically if you figure a weapon rating to be defined as expectations of potential damage and heat within a given unit of time under standard controlled use... then if you can push that it would heat faster than it would cool or not have enough time to cool off before it heats up again, a frequent problem with LMGs in real life.

Spoiler

I have personally had a SAW (M249) barrel melt over in Fort Jackson (say what you will about "Relaxin' Jackson", Fort Sil would have me sit on my butt for 50 minutes after only doing something for 10 minutes, Jackson would only let you rest 20 minutes for every 40 minutes of high activity. ) Thankfully I was firing blanks but I was given 3 boxes of ammo and instructions to fire them all as quickly as possible. To "Cut those trees with the bullets." Remember the old popeye series with the girlfriend that had tube limbs? That's what happened to that barrel with the help of two guys to speed load my gun and firing a few M16 magazines from the spare port during the first somewhat prolonged reload.

The point is the design is to include lore tidbits like that into actual mechanics, with a tangible risk system for jams and other issues (you can see it build, you can see when it reaches the threshold for issues both temporary and permanent and if you stay there you will suffer but you can push it to get that tiny edge when you need it. Risk versus Reward.)

The heat system... well it uses a basic form of thermal dynamics but the gist is this:
Equipment generates heat. It bleeds at a steady rate into the Mech/Engine threshold (the 30 limit to shut down) and the heatsinks pump the heat away from the equipment and out of the mech/engine threshold. Heatsinks have two tasks that they do at all times, absorb (pump) heat away from equipment and the engine and expel it into the air. Heatsinks of lore do this regardless of the mech's engine status. Though a consideration is to be able to turn off the expel function when attempting to hide, since armor can disperse heat very quickly, allowing one to try and blend into the background in thermal sensors.

As the heatsinks fill in capacity, their ability to draw heat from other locations becomes impeded proportionately to how full they are. Dispersing the heat will allow them to regain their rate of absorbtion. However exceeding their capacity causes damage as per the TacOps Heatsink Overtaxing rule (which gives heatsinks a capacity/threshold, and when you surpass the heat they can handle by a certain amount the rolls begin to see if you get a permanent punishment, reducing the effectiveness of your heatsinks or even destroying them).

Using the TacOps heatsink rule in Megamek led to an absolutely desperate situation in a Clan Invasion 1 versus Phoenix pack 4 vs 4 fight...

Bah, I never finished the details of that fight but it starts here. Or don't seem to have. But the long and short of it was after the building I was on collapsed, I lost a side torso. Due to design quirks and a Battletech proper Nova, I had no pelvis, no torso twist, and as such losing the side torso also meant losing an arm and a leg. My only means of transportation is progressively difficult jump jetting. My engine has two ticks of damage, I'm generating 10 heat every turn from the engine damage alone. Every jump, every shot, all adds to that. And though I'm cooling I'm also pushing my heatsinks. Not getting enough to shutdown, but more than enough to constantly damage my heatsinks. I reduce power to my lasers to reduce their heat output, causing them to do less damage. I make longer jumps and abstain from shooting to try and keep up, but before I've realized how bad it was it I have already melted over 8 Double Heatsinks. In the end the heat was so bad that my pilot lost consciousness in a still powered mech, face to face with the Battlemaster that chased me over 3,000 meters, while I waited stationary for 10 seconds both to try and cool and have my final showdown when he came around the corner.

---

In another case a custom made security mech using a fuel cell engine only had a single heatink which is perfectly fine... until you used the Vehicle Flamer mounted on it. Intended to be rarely used I gave it two shots over 20 seconds and this was enough to melt the heatsink. Unable to cool at all the mech soon became a walking time bomb over the next couple of minutes until in one case the ammo cooked off or in the second case (I had two of them) after the forethought to jettison the ammo to avoid the same fate, the pilot literally cooked to death inside.

The system is NOT intended for MWO or a game in MWO's arcadey point and click shooter style but a true Battletech / Mechwarrior Simulation.

That said I'm gonna stop hijacking this thread.

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 21 October 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

Sure, and a good player would utilise such weapon types to their best advantage, I just worry about the nature of having too many face time weapons, leading to bad noob behaviours and general staring competitions, also they come across as too rewarding to certain mechs and situations, particularly lighter mechs.

I don't know, it would be cool to see how that actual dps strobe effect played out at least, despite my concerns I can see the kind of benefits it would bring.

One of the issues with MWO is that the staring weapons often aren't good enough to justify the staring, either because the DPS is unreliable or because the DPS is too hot. And PGI keeps it this way because DPS is annoying to fight, even it has that explicit weakness. As such, only the UAC/2 boats are competitive these days because the short down time and the safety of long range make them useful.

As for lighter 'Mechs, again, standard lasers can be configured as the burs+twist option, though I would absolutely consider taking something like a Locust with SPL if the strobing is potent enough that holding on target for about half a second is roughly as powerful as 6x SPL was before they were nerfed to 3.5 damage.

[Nightbird]

How I fit Table Top rules into Mechwarrior games is that they exist within the universe as a board game with collectible pieces for children to play. The numbers that are copied over from 'real life' were as accurate as possible, but when fit into a 10sec turn some things were broken like the 2 class weapons. Even so, it worked to get kids interested in mechs and also taught them the rules of warfare that had held for hundreds of years in a fun to learn format.

If a simple CGI scene of this was ever done, it would put TT in its place

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 21 October 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

How I fit Table Top rules into Mechwarrior games is that they exist within the universe as a board game with collectible pieces for children to play. The numbers that are copied over from 'real life' were as accurate as possible, but when fit into a 10sec turn some things were broken like the 2 class weapons. Even so, it worked to get kids interested in mechs and also taught them the rules of warfare that had held for hundreds of years in a fun to learn format.

If a simple CGI scene of this was ever done, it would put TT in its place

Reminds me of the mech game in Battletech (the cartoon) on Dustbowl. A game series known as Sunrise that also gained a lot of its mechanics from Battletech despite being a Japanese-style anime board game (subtitle: Mask of Arcadius and its direct sequel whose name I can't recall, NOT the Academy spinoff which is an entirely different genre of game), has its own spinoff references in the Academy game in which it is a arcade action game, a handheld strategy game, and a stress relief that ate your money.

But to actually make tabletop work as a rule base for the real game...

Spoiler

To make a straight tabletop translation work you need to do one of two things, set them up to work in a 5 second window, or in a 10 second window.

If you go for a five second window, then you can get away with straight weapons. The small lasers can make up for their lack of firepower with multiple small lasers. (feeding them a faster firing rate lets them be abused when using them in mass, much like the MG issue. Mechs that need a little help in terms of firepower could always have access to weapon variants of a reasonably better nature or 'quirks'. Though if using customizing rules via the now named Battletech RPG campaign system rather than "build your own mech construction rules", most mechs won't really need help as you can't exactly turn a Firestarter into a mini-Centurion and outclass everything else that's remotely similar just 'cause you got more hardpoints).

In the 10 second window, you pretty much have to split the fire of lasers to multiple shots unless you want their firepower to blatantly outclass the autocannons, regardless of whether you do autocannons true to lore or tank cannon style. Doing so actually makes balancing Clan versus IS considerably easier, too. In the case of 8 damage ER Large IS versus 10 damage ER Large Clan, what if the IS ER Large fired twice in 10 seconds for 4 damage each, while the Clan ER Large fired 3 or 4 times in 10 seconds for either 3.33 damage or 2.5 damage each. Also makes their high heat very manageable. When you consider this, missiles would only be firing once in 10 seconds, though variants could exist where the damage is divided to make more salvos out of smaller missiles, so you might have a launcher that can do 2 or 3 shots but in the end the result is the same. Just a matter of how readily available it is versus how upfront it is.

But to really pull off either in an acceptable fashion, TacOps and MaxTech must be examined and added in. Straight basic can lead to a lot of abuse straight as is by those who can carry bigger guns, or f the fire rates are tinkered with PGI style, the small weapons will blatantly outdo the big ones. However, TacOps especially is filled with all sorts of rules that help out in creating a real time simulation, such as the rapid fire autocannons, burst fire rule for machine guns (which does in fact cause them to generate enough heat to be noticeable and require you to account for in tabletop), direct blows (a reward if you can keep the fire on the same spot for multiple shots, getting additional damage). Keep PPCs of all forms straight TT TacOps, Gauss straight TT TacOps, and add in MaxTech pilot skills (optional if you want your different pilots to feel unique), design quirks and finally make sure there are more than just mechs so that every weapon, every role has a use.

If you just use the damage/heat of each weapon system and come up with your own firing rates, it leads to a host of other issues to deal with... as well as a number of other solutions for it but at that point you have an ever delicate balance that can fall apart at the slightest introduction, such as a new tech, a new mech with just one extra hardpoint, etc. Sort of what we have now. Then again MWO has a host of other issues, lack of mixed warfare with vehicles and aircraft and infantry, lack of actual mission structure, lack of true asymmetrical circumstance...etc. Can't even start a forest fire or disappear from sensors by hiding behind smoke.

Also, yes... that is a Centurion with jumpjets.


And yes... for some reason if your guns don't work, a good diagonistic method is to one: Ask the computer to run a diagnostic. Two: Jerk the throttle forward while smashing the foot pedals (turning your mech) and flip the occasional switch. All while the mech ignores your command inputs and remains stationary in front of the enemy...when the only malfunction is your weapons are disconnected from the power source. o.O; Cartoons, am I right?

Edit for side note:
If you read the compendium for the show along with it.. The Centurion actually uses his autocannon to take out the ship's thrusters. But we see lasers, due to censorship at the time, no ballistic weaponry was allowed. So throughout the cartoon nobody has any autocannon ammo and they make a running gag of it. In the compendium, they had plenty of it and in the scenarios having them proved to be good turning points in battles, particularly when the Clanners had jams. Sadly that doesn't happen in the cartoon. (The compendium also has tabletop setups to play the story out yourself. I'm gonna tinker with them to see if I can get a bot to play along, otherwise I might recruit someone to play with me to put them up on the forum.)

Edited by Koniving, 22 October 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[Koniving]

Sorry the game is called Sunrider, not Sunrise. The first one, Mask of Arcadius, is available free because its kickstarter far exceeded what they were expecting. It is reasonably short with a few branches to the missions, multiple outcomes to a number of events, and it has reasonably solid gameplay as well as a "Space Whale hardcore" mode which I'm actually getting ready to youtube through. There's also cheats you can dig up online if the game proves too difficult, which it can since there is a repair and rearm mechanic and bad luck is really bad luck. Just remember, everyone is expendable except your primary ship. They won't die permanently. Well hired help will but the main cast won't, they just retreat. Conveniently many of the mechs also share Battletech names, such as Paladin, Blackjack and more.

If you think of the weapons in terms of Battletech it is really easy to get. Pulse lasers are basically laser machine guns. Then you have your small scale ballistics, rapid fire and easier to hit light targets, though they can pull into large unarmored targets easily. The "Lasers" are your large scale extended range beam weapons. I don't like the Japanese fantasy laser bending effects but hey, just ignore them the music and sound is ******* awesome. Kinetic weapons, they're the big guns, your Gauss Rifles. They sound so damn good. They punch through armor pretty well. Armor blocks against ballistic weaponry and missiles. Shields block against energy weaponry. Energy isn't as affected by armor, and ballistics ignore shields altogether. Missiles serve as something of a trump card, but they are very limited in supply. There's also the nukes and the big energy gun which is very difficult to be able to use much but the effect is just dreadnaught class awesome.

Good luck, just remember it's an American made tribute to Japanese tropes, and uh.. lets be honest we're not playing it for the story.

One thing I learned early on (and low and behold, if you look into the lore of the AMS it's basically true in Battletech; AMS is just a smaller machine gun on a turret with autotracking software).... your lighter ballistic weapons also serve as your anti-missile defense. This is absolutely crucial because by the time you encounter pirate missile boats or even military class missile boats, or several Light Mechs, you'll be screwed without investing in improving this trait on your carrier and on your mechs (that have them).

Edited by Koniving, 22 October 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[Koniving]

In a way similar to how you would put tabletop inside the universe... Battletech pod simulation trainers managed a way to put their own pods into universe, though in a non-canon way.
Known as the Dooley trainer, it basically says once you are strapped in you are teleported into a mech already sent to the field. O.o; yeah. Neat though.
Real actors.

Or if the real actors are game breaking with their 1980s / 1990s looks... "Anime"?


Battletech PC Game (2017) is also incorporating those simulator pods, as "pilot trainers".

(In the first episode of the Battletech cartoon, the simulator pod was also used to help an aerotech pilot learn how to use a Battlemech; though her choices in combat are meant to show inexperience... they have nothing to do with what a combat pilot in an aircraft would have done so it really felt forced.)



The official lore in regards of tabletop itself in the universe does actually exist and can be found in the Tech Manual, Mechwarrior RPG 1st edition, TRO 2750 under Crab.

Basically the tabletop game is a virtual (computer) simulation based in recorded sensor data of actual battles which can be played back, edited and can extrapolate expected reactions to any changes so the pilot can tinker with data from a previous engagement and go "What if I did this instead" and find out if maybe things could have gone better. Evidently Crab pilots were known for doing this while bored. It also helped that their system could basically read data across the planet...somehow. Did you notice it also says it has 7 or 8 redundancies to keep them active and needs them because the typical battle will wipe out or more? Fragile sensor system.

Edited by Koniving, 22 October 2017 - 08:56 AM.

[Nightbird]

I added LBX to the first post. I changed the "spread" column in the Google Sheets doc to a formula, so it is easy to double check the math and also to change it in the future.

[Snowbluff]

I love all the rationale that can be better explained as better material science.

Still, nerfing C LBX spread is ridiculous. LBX should have a fixed spread at all ranges anyway, to make them better at distance.

Edited by Snowbluff, 22 October 2017 - 08:31 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 22 October 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

I love all the rationale that can be better explained as better material science.

Still, nerfing C LBX spread is ridiculous. LBX should have a fixed spread at all ranges anyway, to make them better at distance.

Why would you want LB-X to be better at a distance, though? There are other weapons for that role. Why not make LB-X actually good as short-range weapons instead? The only reason the IS get the better spread is because they can't take as many supplemental weapons and have to lean harder on the big tonnage ones.

[Nightbird]

Snowbluff, on 22 October 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

I love all the rationale that can be better explained as better material science.

Still, nerfing C LBX spread is ridiculous. LBX should have a fixed spread at all ranges anyway, to make them better at distance.

Re: rationale, thanks!

I'm suggesting LBX spread that is lower than ingame right now? For C-LBX20 I have 0.8 and ingame it's 1.0.

Edited by Nightbird, 22 October 2017 - 08:45 PM.

[Nightbird]

Any thoughts on autocannon balance? It it clear what the strengths/weaknesses within IS & Clan are for each class of weapons? What about between IS/Clan?

[Shifty McSwift]

Nightbird, on 23 October 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Any thoughts on autocannon balance? It it clear what the strengths/weaknesses within IS & Clan are for each class of weapons? What about between IS/Clan?

My thoughts on that are simple, the main distinction between AC and LBX (in my opinion of course), should be the burst/stream fire versus the spread splat fire, this balance weighs itself out if the numbers match up pretty well and keep it more about personal preference there.

As for UAC which always comes up, my thoughts there would be to scale back its potentials but make the jamming less severe. I.E. and/or E.G. A UAC would function much the same as now, except its volley would only do 75% of their AC counterparts damage at the same number of projectiles, making a double burst deal at maximum 150% damage comparatively, in this way the penalties of jams could be less severe, and/or jam rates could be reduced or reworked. Either that or fundamentally reword the weapon to have half the cooldown of its AC counterpart at the cost of higher heat, potentially longer bullet streams, and of course the dreaded jam chances and effects.

I also think all PPCs should do some of their damage in splash form to varying degrees, but at the same time reduce their heat and the like. All of these changes make the PPFLD nature of gauss (as well as the instant but usually brief hitscan of lasers) all the more valuable, but they have their own downfalls, namely in heat and forced burn times for lasers and charge time and fragility of gauss

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 23 October 2017 - 05:57 AM.