42 replies to this topic

[Bombast]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 21 October 2017 - 04:10 AM.
inappropriate reference, replies removed

[RaptorRage]

Looks like a consequence of demanding the arms stick straight out was they are now not converging as well. The original lower arms would also have been closer together.

[Y E O N N E]

RaptorRage, on 20 October 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Looks like a consequence of demanding the arms stick straight out was they are now not converging as well. The original lower arms would also have been closer together.

Nit really. Closer together to an even lesser degree than the height change. I'll take that trade.

[Gas Guzzler]

The best is when you try to shoot somebody in river city, and both of your Gauss rounds hit buildings, even though the Mech is in plain sight shooting you.

[Gas Guzzler]

RaptorRage, on 20 October 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Looks like a consequence of demanding the arms stick straight out was they are now not converging as well. The original lower arms would also have been closer together.

Lol... if you do the geometry you are talking about an incredibly small delta in hardpoint width. Bishop Steiner claims the height change is negligible, and the width change is about 36% of negligible (assuming the Nightstar's arms were at 20 degrees initially).

[Appogee]

An Innocent Urbie, on 20 October 2017 - 01:30 AM, said:

the convergence is very far apart, they have actuators right? so

I think it'd work fine if only the arms drooped a little...

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 20 October 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

I think it'd work fine if only the arms drooped a little...

Gas Guzzler, on 20 October 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Lol... if you do the geometry you are talking about an incredibly small delta in hardpoint width. Bishop Steiner claims the height change is negligible, and the width change is about 36% of negligible (assuming the Nightstar's arms were at 20 degrees initially).

[Nightbird]

The problem of all mechs with upper and lower arms... hold them to the side at chest height and you shoot your teammates in the back. Hold the arms down, and you have to shoot from the hip. If only we can use the toggle to lift them in front of you, like the marauder's default.

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 October 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

I think you missed the intended irony.

[Thorn Hallis]

I'm ok with the arms, but I'm more pissed with the asymetrical placement of hardpoints on the right torso of the 9P and 9S. THAT needs fixing.

[Angel of Annihilation]

An Innocent Urbie, on 20 October 2017 - 01:30 AM, said:

the convergence is very far apart, they have actuators right? so

Hey, the "Community" wanted the arms raised so that they could have their high mounts and that is exactly what they got.

However it appears not one of them considered the effect it would have on convergence, corner poking ability, ability to navigate tight confines or ability to shoot around their teammates without risk of coring them from back due to those "High Mounted" but widely spaced arms.

Yep clearly a case of community knows best on this one but I guess as long as the "Community" is happy, we all should be happy, right?

So hate to break this to you, but you can't go blaming PGI on this one. The convergence issue is ENTIRELY on the "Communities" shoulders this time. PGI tried to give us a good mech but we wanted HIGH MOUNTS by God!!!!

[Gas Guzzler]

Viktor Drake, on 20 October 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Hey, the "Community" wanted the arms raised so that they could have their high mounts and that is exactly what they got.

However it appears not one of them considered the effect it would have on convergence, corner poking ability, ability to navigate tight confines or ability to shoot around their teammates without risk of coring them from back due to those "High Mounted" but widely spaced arms.

Yep clearly a case of community knows best on this one but I guess as long as the "Community" is happy, we all should be happy, right?

So hate to break this to you, but you can't go blaming PGI on this one. The convergence issue is ENTIRELY on the "Communities" shoulders this time. PGI tried to give us a good mech but we wanted HIGH MOUNTS by God!!!!

Are you joking?

You think raising the arms had a noticeable effect on the width of the mounts? Do you not understand trig? People were saying that the hardpoint height change was insignificant. Well, the hardpoint width change was ~35% of insignificant in that case.

[LordNothing]

El Bandito, on 20 October 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Obviously you don't deserve the hits if you pilot a mech with such wide spread hardpoints.

i like mechs with hardpoints that are close to the cockpit. higher is still better but lateral divergence can also be bad.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 20 October 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Hey, the "Community" wanted the arms raised so that they could have their high mounts and that is exactly what they got.

However it appears not one of them considered the effect it would have on convergence, corner poking ability, ability to navigate tight confines or ability to shoot around their teammates without risk of coring them from back due to those "High Mounted" but widely spaced arms.

Yep clearly a case of community knows best on this one but I guess as long as the "Community" is happy, we all should be happy, right?

So hate to break this to you, but you can't go blaming PGI on this one. The convergence issue is ENTIRELY on the "Communities" shoulders this time. PGI tried to give us a good mech but we wanted HIGH MOUNTS by God!!!!

Get your eyes checked, mate. The convergence difference was very minimal post arm raise--go compare them in mechlab. The increased height was far more significant in terms of gameplay--in a positive way.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 October 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 20 October 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

Get your eyes checked, mate. The convergence difference was very minimal post arm raise--go compare them in mechlab. The increased height was far more significant in terms of gameplay--in a positive way.

Convergence is only part of the reason I am sour on the changes and not the biggest one. Everyone was using the "You can shoot what you see" argument, well when I corner peek, I see just fine but most of the time one of my shots goes into a wall, a rock or the back of a friendly so the whole "Shoot what you can see" argument goes right out the window.

Seriously, I would much rather have had my weapons ever so slightly lowered but tight and tucked in rather than my wings spread full getting hung up on stuff and shooting into the wall often as not. Also I can much better manage my exposure when peeking over a hill then around a hill in this mech, especially with the arms so wide. When cresting a hill, as soon as I see over it, if I don't like what I see, I can back away and down even if it means I can't get my shoot off. When I try peeking a corner though, those stupid wide spread arm just telegraphs that I am getting ready to peek and I have to walk WAAAAYYYY the hell out to bring all guns to bear. This of course means I have a long *** way to go to reverse back into cover and I find myself taking tons more damage than I should be because of this.

Basically instead of a mech that can both hill peek and corner peek reasonably well providing good all-around performance, now we have a specialist mech that is excellent at hill peeking, but sucks at corner peeking which ends up being a net loss in my opinion.

I will leave it with this. The Marauder IIC is considered one of the best mechs in the game yet the majority of its hard points are rather low which based on popular opinion should make it suck. The reason it doesn't suck is that its hard points are tucked in very tight to its body which gives it a very narrow frontal profile to shoot at. It also maneuvers well in close, tight confined spaces, can easily shoot around its teammates or obstructions and can peek a corner, fire and return to cover very quickly with limited exposure. Additionally the mounts while low are HIGH ENOUGH that you can still peek a hill without having to over expose or worry about the shells going into the dirt. That is what we had with the Original Nightstar but instead the community wanted high mounts. Bad, bad trade if you ask me.

[Bombast]

Viktor Drake, on 20 October 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Seriously, I would much rather have had my weapons ever so slightly lowered but tight and tucked in rather than my wings spread full getting hung up on stuff and shooting into the wall often as not.

I'm pretty sure you'd still be hitting walls and rocks if the arms hadn't have been raised.

Honestly, I'm not sure why you'd expect anything else. Everything from the TROs, miniatures, MWO's concept art, the original screenshots and the final model all pretty clearly showed a mech that was going to have this problem. It's just a wide *** mech.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 20 October 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

well when I corner peek,

There's your problem. You are trying to corner peak with a 'Mech that is so wide that you are half exposed before your cockpit rounds the corner. That is true with or without the raised arms and that is true for other 'Mechs like the EBJ which only get away with it marginally better since the entire thing is smaller.

Not every 'Mech can corner poke just as not every 'Mech can hill-hump. The Nightstar is a pure-bred hill-humper.

Also, the convergence was going to suck even with the lowered arms, because the width changed by an even lower amount than the height.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 20 October 2017 - 07:24 PM.

[Andrew W Wiggins]

Not that I expect anyone at PGI to read but the Nightstar was the last mech pack I purchased and it left such a bad taste I've refused to spend another dime on the game.

[Stonefalcon]

Andrew W Wiggins, on 16 August 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

Not that I expect anyone at PGI to read but the Nightstar was the last mech pack I purchased and it left such a bad taste I've refused to spend another dime on the game.

What did you expect? The mech suffers from Fafnir syndrome so it could never be viable. It's no Annihilator.

[Jackal Noble]

Except the Fafnir is really good.