66 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Darian DelFord, on 22 October 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Skill on Skill

Assaults every time.


There is no scenario where the lights have a snow balls chance in hell of winning.

I will take that bet...

Find 3 other fatty pilots and i will take you on with 3 other lights pilots any day. Id say you would win maybe 1 outta 10 if you are lucky.

[Darian DelFord]

Revis Volek, on 22 October 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

I will take that bet...

Find 3 other fatty pilots and i will take you on with 3 other lights pilots any day. Id say you would win maybe 1 outta 10 if you are lucky.

The absolute worst enemy for any Light Pilot to face is an assault who actually knows how to pilot an assault. With the exception of the Stalker and Dire Whale, which have limited torso twisting, any other 4 assaults can take out the lights.

Once again... skill on skill, assaults win every time.

Remember most lights are limited to medium to small range weaponry. Assaults limit access, and or back to back and the lights are dead and nothing they can do about it.

Once again, Skill being = assaults win

[m]

Here is a basic graph that best represents the Assault Vs Light Scenario that we are discussing here with the amount of mechs worked in alongside Tiers. Ego's aside, here is the best case scenario.

Tiers for the Light Mechs is consistent whereas the Assault Tiers is inconsistent or a fluctuating variable.




Also when looking at graphs like this try and ignore the top and bottom corners collected results as they are skewed heavily in an extreme sense. Look at this type of graph by placing a circle on top of it to get a better representation of the data. Whatever is not within the circle and below the blue line should be ignored as we are focusing on a minimum of four Assault mechs. From that we can focus on a game mode that is a good fit.

Edited by m, 22 October 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[Zigmund Freud]

Sjorpha, on 21 October 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

So I thing 4v6 would be pretty balanced, do an event and set it up in private matches. I'd be up for it.

Count me in too!

[Darian DelFord]

m, on 22 October 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

.

Tiers for the Light Mechs is consistent whereas the Assault Tiers is inconsistent or a fluctuating variable.

See that is the problem, that is not fair to either assaults or lights.

Put me in locust and I can take out 2 maybe 3 assaults if they are all tier 4 or 5.

However a Tier 1 who is on the same skill level as I will have an excellent chance of winning.

[m]

Darian DelFord, on 22 October 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

See that is the problem, that is not fair to either assaults or lights.

Put me in locust and I can take out 2 maybe 3 assaults if they are all tier 4 or 5.

However a Tier 1 who is on the same skill level as I will have an excellent chance of winning.

Since you are a Tier 1 Light or Locust in your statement, according to the graph you would be going up against around 6 Assaults with varying Tiers, and you would have a total of 3-4 mechs in total on your team which are also Lights or Locusts.

Don't forget that our Tiers are not strictly 1 and 2 and 3 and so on. They are on a bar in-game and I assume can be separated into buckets on the Light side to the hundredth of a decimal kind of like this:

Tier 1
Tier <1.99
Tier 2
Tier <2.99
Tier 3
Tier <3.99
Tier 4
Tier <5

I applaud your confidence but the result is debatable depending on the assault Tiers playing at the time and how the buckets are defined.

The reason for not having a strict Tier applying to the Assault Mechs is because of many reasons:

• New Players would increase the Light mech amount automatically
  
• Veteran Players can experience the 4 vs 20 scenario as described before without being locked out or restricted
  
• New Players can play with Veteran players in the Assault Class against both veteran and new players in the Light mech queue

Edited by m, 22 October 2017 - 10:07 AM.

[Novakaine]

Haha I'm more afraid of four lights than I am of four assaults.
Which is just arse backwards, but hey PGI..........

[Y E O N N E]

Novakaine, on 22 October 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

Haha I'm more afraid of four lights than I am of four assaults.
Which is just arse backwards, but hey PGI..........

Only because Lights can evade LRMs more effectively.

[Novakaine]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Only because Lights can evade LRMs more effectively.

Oh hell naw if I catch em at a distance their tiny metal arse's are mine.
Up close the little ******** give me the *******

[Lykaon]

Davegt27, on 21 October 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

OP light Mechs are called light-assault mechs

so you have to get your terms correct lol

Actually by technical definition the typical mission profile of "light" mechs is assaulting while the typical mission profile of "assault" mechs is probably better described as Siege duty.

But I knowwhat you meant...so I am wondering what is an OP light mech and what makes that mech OP compared to an assault counterpart.

Because I know some perameters that speak differently about the power gaps in general performance between the two weight classes.

Now as to the original posters idea...

There are several factors other than the simple math of weight balance.

A single 100 ton mech is seriously out matched by five 20 ton mechs because of the increased capacity to exploit advantages the five mechs have.

First is angle of attack. a 100 ton mech vs andother 100 ton mech has one direction of attack as the origin point of incoming damage. This means there is one angle to be focused on for defensive counter-play. Blocking one point of LOS is significantly easier than five As is defensive manuver applied against one origin point (torso twisting against one attacker vs five)

Next we have the heat scales. One 100 ton mech obvioulsy has one means of building and venting heat. Once the heat cap is reached it will be shut down or damaged by over ride. Conversely five 20 ton mechs have individual heat scales and means of building and venting heat. If one or more 20 ton mechs reach their heat thresholds they may disengage to cool off while the remaining un heat burdened mechs can continue the attack. There is a much much higher degree of sustainable offence in five 20 light mechs than one 100 ton ton assault mech.

With just two advantages it takes only two light mechs to express these effects and these effects are exponentially improved by adding more light mechs.

Essentially only two light mechs will win the vast majority of the time assuming there is not a considerable skill gap between the participents.

[OrmsbyGore]

Darian DelFord, on 22 October 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

The absolute worst enemy for any Light Pilot to face is an assault who actually knows how to pilot an assault. With the exception of the Stalker and Dire Whale, which have limited torso twisting, any other 4 assaults can take out the lights.

Once again... skill on skill, assaults win every time.

Remember most lights are limited to medium to small range weaponry. Assaults limit access, and or back to back and the lights are dead and nothing they can do about it.

Once again, Skill being = assaults win

If 4 light pilots and 4 assault pilots of equal skill faced off, the lights would win 100% of the time, as they have the speed to to effectively stay out of the assaults' effective ranges while using long range poking/sniping weapons to slowly pick off the assaults 1 by 1; remember that armor is a finite resource, but speed is essentially infinite. Also, with greater speed, the lights can seize the most advantageous cover on the map and slowly peel away armor while the assaults try to get into effective range. Remember, every aspect of this game is designed to favor long range engagements while hiding behind cover, and lights have the advantage in that scenario

[Y E O N N E]

OrmsbyGore, on 22 October 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

If 4 light pilots and 4 assault pilots of equal skill faced off, the lights would win 100% of the time, as they have the speed to to effectively stay out of the assaults' effective ranges while using long range poking/sniping weapons to slowly pick off the assaults 1 by 1; remember that armor is a finite resource, but speed is essentially infinite. Also, with greater speed, the lights can seize the most advantageous cover on the map and slowly peel away armor while the assaults try to get into effective range. Remember, every aspect of this game is designed to favor long range engagements while hiding behind cover, and lights have the advantage in that scenario

Er, no. Assaults with ERLL put the kibosh on that idea immediately. ERLL on slow 'Mechs was taken specifically to counter that particular strategy as employed by SDR-5Ks in last year's MWOWC. In one match where 228 didn't take an ERLL 'Mech, they got picked apart. All other games? The Lights were effectively suppressed.

[Christophe Ivanov]

2 weeks ago, I was in a QP match on the Polar map in Conquest mode. I was in my Assault DW-Prime with Charlie Lance and our Lance stuck together throughout the entire match which is rare for me to experience. As the match went on, we lost Alpha and Bravo Lance, but the enemy also lost their Charlie and Bravo Lance and have only 3 Lights left.
We had the majority of the CAPS to begin with and what caps we didn't have we made over to get them as well.
The enemy lights got together and proceeded to confront us and try to isolate one of us assaults from what I could gather happening. But like I said, we stuck together and defended each other and the lights stood no chance to kill us quickly. But they did get one of us purely from combat damage where it was going to be easy to kill that one assault.
However, it also cost them in major damage and a loss of one of their own. So it was 2 lights against 3 assaults. I got one from about 250 meters and another assault lost a leg, but the last enemy light started to hide and seek and poptart when it could. One of our assaults was able to destroy a leg, but I was too far away to do anything other than a 500 meter shot.
In the end, we dispatched the light quickly and won the match.
To me, this is the true power of the assaults if used correctly and this is just one way we were able to win using the assaults power and armor. I thoroughly enjoyed this match and wish I recorded this one!

Edited by Christophe Ivanov, 22 October 2017 - 03:11 PM.

[OrmsbyGore]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Er, no. Assaults with ERLL put the kibosh on that idea immediately. ERLL on slow 'Mechs was taken specifically to counter that particular strategy as employed by SDR-5Ks in last year's MWOWC. In one match where 228 didn't take an ERLL 'Mech, they got picked apart. All other games? The Lights were effectively suppressed.

So you're basing the potential results of 4 assaults vs 4 lights on the outcomes of matches that included mediums and heavies?

[Hobbles v]

If the mode is specifically assaults vs lights. The assaults should easily win. Dont take meta. Take anti light builds. The assaults spam streaks and lbx. Easy peasy.

4 streak cyclops would easily walk through a dozen locusts

[OrmsbyGore]

Hobbles v, on 22 October 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

4 streak cyclops would easily walk through a dozen locusts

If they can get into effective range

[Koniving]

This would highly depend on whether the lights all came in at once or in waves.

From a more technical point of view, this game mode has the unfortunate problem in that it can't be done in quick play due to its exclusion of other weight classes.

And in faction play, well....yeah.

Side note:
Something like it? My 88 ton Atlas versus many lights.


4 guys in 2 mediums and 2 heavies take down 7 assaults and a light.

Skip to 2:30.
Our 4 assaults get obliterated in less than a minute while doing only minor damage, but then our second lance wipes the floor with them in a straight up circle brawl.

[Y E O N N E]

OrmsbyGore, on 22 October 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

So you're basing the potential results of 4 assaults vs 4 lights on the outcomes of matches that included mediums and heavies?

No, I'm basing it on the fact that those Lights got savaged even when they did attack those Assaults alone.

Speed is infinite, armor is not. Scrape the legs a few times with 45-55 points at 900 meters and see what happens.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 October 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[Khobai]

assuming equal skill levels, 4 assaults should pretty much always beat 4 lights.

although Id be interested to see how the lights performed if electronic warfare was actually a thing

if mechs suffered a damage penalty when firing beyond optimum range without a sensor lock and lights had better sensors than most assaults, the lights would then have the advantage at long-range sniping. it would certainly make assaults like the cyclops important for the extra sensor range.

[jper4]

I always wanted a Halloween event. Night of the Living Urbies. where you would take the mech of your choice and have to fight through a horde of stock AI controlled urbies to make it to a dropship on the other side of the map and evac off the planet.