Jump to content

Battletech vs Mechwarrior, let’s put it to rest


72 replies to this topic

#1 Stormwolf

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 3,951 posts
  • LocationCW Dire Wolf

Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:45 AM

Greetings, I wanted to create this thread a lot sooner, but a number of real life obligations have kept me from it.

I have been reading various posts and threads on this board and get the distinct impression that a lot of people don’t get what’s what. I read things like; “this is Mechwarrior, not Battletech” and “Mechwarrior split off from Battletech”, which to be blunt are rather ignorant statements. People seem to immediately equate Battletech to the boardgame, even though this isn’t correct.

Battletech is the entire franchise and universe, Mechwarrior has been a number of products in this franchise.
For instance, Mechwarrior was a RPG before it was a mech simulator. Mechwarrior represents the life of a character in the BT universe; the Mechwarrior computer games put the player in this universe via the cockpit of a mech.

In a number of other cases this boils down to discussions between tabletop and videogame players and how they perceive the games. I have personally started with MW2 and later moved on to the tabletop and novels after that I played MW4. The perspectives of the crowds give rather different interpretations on what MWO should be, but I’ll list a number of things that both “camps” so to speak think of each other.

The Mechwarrior Players
For this I’ll mostely focus on the MW4 and Mechassault crowds since MW, MW2 and MW3 are pretty close to the TT as it is. Many players in this category are really unfamiliar with the universe this all takes place in, MW4 and Mechassault don’t really bother to do a lot of explaining.

These players are also often overwhelmed by the plethora of information the universe has to offer. I’ll be fair here, the BT universe can be rather intimidating due to its copious amounts of lore and game books. I get from a lot of people here that they are scared that the game will essentially be turned into the TT where the players are sitting in miniatures instead of 3D mechs. This won’t be the case in MWO, the TT players don’t want this to happen as much as you do.

This probably stems from the fact that TT players want to have the TT construction rules for mechs. This will work for various reasons:
  • MW2 and MW3 already did this and approached the canon universe rather closely.
  • The novels and the mechs portrayed in them also obey these rules.
  • There are actual Technical Readouts with descriptions of mechs and their backgrounds the canon weapon loadouts can be found here.

This will ofcourse lead into “the TT mechlab is unbalanced” discussions, but let’s not fool ourselves here. The MW4 mechlab is extremely unbalanced since it throws out a lot of rules and often made stuff up along the way.

The only thing this group wants if fun gameplay, but they think that the TT crowd wants to bury MWO in boring rules and whatnot.

The Tabletop players
Often labeled “the Battletech players”, I’ll lump the MW, MW2 and 3 crowds in with these guys since those games are rather close to the TT. The main fear here is that MWO will be dumbed down too much like it was with MW4 and Mechassault. And to be honest, I agree with this, too many good things have been thrown out to keep these games simple. It doesn’t really help here that Microsoft pretty much replaced the canon mech configs with their own homebrew content.

Some people in this group can be rather elitist because they have far more knowledge on the background and universe then our average MW4 player. This tends to create a rift between TT and MW crowds.

But rest assured, this group only wants a decent mech simulator. These guys don’t want a 100% conversion of the boardgame, they want to play the game like it is depicted in the novels.

The TT crowd wants to see things unfold like they did in the canon storyline, this will most certainly enhance the gameplay.

My personal opinions
I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but people shouldn’t overreact. The MW4 and Mechassault crowds don’t know what they have been missing out on all these years. Many in the TT crowd shouldn’t expect this game to be 100% true to the universe since minor changes will be made for the sake of gameplay.

#2 metro

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,491 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationSians Celestial City- http://capellanconfederation.com/

Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:05 AM

Well said Stormy. :D

#3 God of War

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 447 posts
  • LocationGermany/Stuttgart

Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:39 AM

Well spoken. If we "Batletech players"(i like the lable :D ) would want a TT-copy to play online we could just turn around
and start playing a Megamek campaingn. We want a fast paced, taktical challenging, brilliant looking game that keep true to it´s
roots and the spirit of the BT-universe.

#4 Blackfire1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 1,462 posts
  • LocationLas Vegas

Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:47 AM

I've been away for a week and this is whats been going on on these fourms? Tsk Tsk.

But you Stormy shot the fish in the bucket with the hand-grenade. Very well said. I would admit, I don't even look at the MechAss games as battletech related. MW4 mechlab just kinda pissed me off. :\

To you get my like from me. :D

#5 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:11 AM

Sayla Stormwolf.

#6 Mchawkeye

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 883 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:25 AM

wow, talk about "sweeping generalisation?"

I have played battletech for 15+ years. I played mw2, mw2mercs, 3, 4, mw4nercs.

I do not appreciate the suggestion that just because I would prefer a good game rather than something potentially compromised by the adherence to the TT rules, I am in some way ignorant, that I "don't know what I'm missing"?

I maintain the the background is a great place to take inspiration from, the rules of the TT a good place to take guidance from, but nothing more. Heap on the lore. Stack up on the personality. I want LBX to act like LBX, sure, but I want (for one example) lasers to act like (get this) lasers. not the inappropriately random instruments of the TT. The table top was designed like that for table top reasons, those reasons were retconned into the books and the lore. Sometimes you just have to leave some things behind, for the sake of game.

I sense of immersion that you need to achieve is different in both games. What works for one may not necessarily work for the other.

Don't get me wrong, if they manage to make a good game from exactly (or close too) the table top rule set, so ignorant individuals like me can finally see what I have been, apparently, missing, bring it. I don't care, so long as the game is good; but I do not believe that you can translate the TT game into a good simulator without compromises and the out right altering of some aspects.

Incidentally, I, for one, am not overwhelmed.

I did find the OP, intentionally or not, a tad patronising though.

#7 Jaroth Corbett

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Vicious
  • The Vicious
  • 2,257 posts
  • LocationSmoke Jaguar OZ

Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:59 AM

What if I am in both groups? MW3 was my first online game & I loved it. I love the lore of BT but I never played a TT game. I would like to see as much lore & canon packed into the game as possible.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 21 December 2011 - 04:59 AM.


#8 Knt Maverick

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Corporal
  • Corporal
  • 111 posts
  • LocationKentucky

Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:05 AM

Haveing some of this kind of "discussion" in my owh thread about the TT, MW,2,3,4, "MechAss" --love that.. lol.. -- and the bickering that it had caused between people. I had first thought that the OP was gonna say something rather ignorant toward the aspect. However, I'm greatly relieved that he had not. As was said, "shot the fish in the bucket," or "hit'n the nail on the head." Yes, you've masterfully stated the tie between the 2 "seemingly" different games. As for the calling of those whose lacking information "ignorant," again, it's a direct description of the term, not an insult. Myself, i started with MW2. I've played all MechAss, MW, games that was officially produced for PC minus the original MW. I've played MechAss 1 & 2. Reciently, i've got into the MekTek computer version of the TT game, and if the complexity of MekTeck is a direct translation of the Paper/Pen and TT games.. then i must say, it's far to complex for me to successfully play, but the rules and regs and lore that was produced for such a game, should as closely as possible be implimented (IMO) into MWO. As the Devs had said, They are BT/MW fans, also, and WANT to make MWO as close as they can to the Lore/Canon of BTU.

we will be (in many cases are) MechWarriors, thrust into the Heat of the BattleTech universe in 3048, currently, and the defication is about to hit the oscilation, come 3049.

As for my opinion of MW4 line and the MechAss line... I 100% agree, Micro$oft seriously FUBAR'd them for some unknown reasoning. Compared to their predicessors, as a player, you are left wanting...

#9 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:21 AM

I played the TT for 23+ years, I played the video game from MW thru MW3. I see exactly what the OP is saying and he isn't being "a tad patronizing", He generalized. Don't fit in the stereotype? Good. I don't either. The game is going to be a video game based around the board game, and the corresponding lore. It will not fully emulate the original TT game, but it should be a fun RPG in the line that I am a guy piloting a giant death dealing stompy robot for House Steiner vs Clan Jade Falcon or House Kurita. That's enough BattleTech for me. We TT or long time fans of the novels don't want the game to mess up the history of the game's lore. Much like the Video players wouldn't want to see House Griffindor or Hufflepuff in the game. You want a true MechWarrior game... so do we TT/VG gamers, including adherence to the established lore of BattleTech.

#10 Ferrox

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 31 posts
  • LocationClan Space

Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:45 AM

Sayla Stormwolf! Well said and done.

#11 AdamBaines

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,384 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:09 AM

Im on board with everything you said Storm. I have played everything Btech/MW since 1986. And one thing Id like to add to what you said; there is so much good overlap between the two. When its good it gives us great products like MW2 or MechCommader. When its bad...well.....MW4. (although I still played it ALOT :-) ). They can compliment each other so very well when done right and I have faith this will be done right.

#12 Black Sunder

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 452 posts
  • LocationDark Side of the Moon

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:11 AM

Stormwolf said it best.

#13 Cyber Carns

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 203 posts
  • LocationArc Royal

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:40 AM

As always, well said Storm. SEYLA!!

Edited by Cyber Carns, 23 December 2011 - 02:47 AM.


#14 Stormwolf

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 3,951 posts
  • LocationCW Dire Wolf

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:41 AM

Thanks peeps :D

View PostMchawkeye, on 21 December 2011 - 04:25 AM, said:

I did find the OP, intentionally or not, a tad patronising though.


I don't mean to be patronising to anyone.

My entire point is that there are too many BT vs MW discussions going on right now that are pretty much irrelevant. These discussions are causing something of a split, this sort of thing could have negative long term repercussions for the fandom.

The ironic thing here is that most players actually want the same thing in the end.

#15 TheBlade

    Member

  • Pip
  • 14 posts
  • LocationDover NH

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:44 AM

For those knocking the TT laser accuracy thing I ask them one question. "Did you ever try MW4 with force feedback on" I did and it changed my opinion on those random hit locations. You are normally fighting from a rocking platform with the stabilizing gyros straining just to keep the mech upright. It is not so crazy to lack pinpoint precision.

#16 Threat Doc

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Bowman
  • The Bowman
  • 3,715 posts
  • LocationO'Shaughnnessy MMW Base, Devon Continent, Rochester, FedCom

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:50 AM

Stormwolf, I respect you for putting this out there, and I wholly agree with you on what you've said. However, I do not believe this is going to be resolved by words. The "other" crowd is just going to need to see how the game plays before they will acquiesce and we can put all of this collective foolishness behind us. The devs are BattleTech lovers, and they also loved the video games, so I believe they're going to make something unique, that will embrace both worlds. They have BattleTech books on at least one desk, Bryan's, from what I saw, and that's a heavily encouraging sign. Finally, Randall Bills is involved with this, and he's the one sending out the ISN Updates and said he's there to check lore. All of these are extraordinary signs that we veterans are actually going to get a BattleTech computer game, MechWarrior, that is worthy of the name, and not just some slovenly developed pile of Urbie fodder.

That being said, how about we not worry about this argument, anymore, until the game puts our fears and issues to rest? 7.5+ Months isn't that far away, so I think we can survive.

#17 The Basilisk

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Mercenary
  • The Mercenary
  • 3,270 posts
  • LocationFrankfurt a.M.

Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:33 AM

There may be some definitions I don't agree with completely but you made some good points stormwolf.

Still ..... MWO will be a simulator with RPG aspects.
If close to lore means close to the Battletech Cycle its Mechs and weapon systems I'm all in with you.
If it means close to the ruleset of the bordgame ..... hmmm.
Don't get me wrong I love Battletech ( yea Battletech IS the bordgame, everything other came later)
but its ruleset translated to every simulater is somewhat odd at least.
I realy realy hope they are doing a completely new take on this.

#18 Tannhauser Gate

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blood-Eye
  • The Blood-Eye
  • 1,302 posts
  • LocationAttack ship off the Shoulder of Orion

Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:44 AM

Paraphrasing some of the ignorant posts Ive seen…
“Make it as close to the TT rules as possible and educate the poor fools whove never played it.”
“I want endless jump jets, melee combat and an energy sword.”
“MWO should be more like MA because no one cares about lore and MA was the best and most popular Mechwarrior game ever”.

MWO will be what it will be. The devs seem to have a great mastery of video game design, of BT lore, and they have a great team with loads experience in both. Personally, I want an immersive exciting MW experience in a convincing, deep, and dynamic BT universe. Judging by what PGI has done so far, looks like this will be an excellent game and the most BT of any of the video games. Possibly THE game of whole franchise that breaks BT out of the shadows and unites the polarized fans.

Edited by lakedaemon, 21 December 2011 - 08:53 AM.


#19 Garth Erlam

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,756 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • YouTube: Link
  • LocationVancouver, BC

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:02 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 21 December 2011 - 02:45 AM, said:

I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but people shouldn’t overreact.

So say we all.

#20 CeeKay Boques

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 3,371 posts
  • LocationYes

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:05 AM

This is a bit untrue. Besides the LAB, and bit more FASA in the lore, what did MW3 and MW2 do more "BattleTechy" than MW4? Lumping MW4 with MechAssault is a travesty. You're really just shooting for "ancient players of the old guard aren't you?" Having played all MW2-4 plus expansions... I'm not feeling you. Direcitonal jump jets? I can't think of, in game play, how MW2 or MW3 brought more battletech to the screen. (well... MW3 was more simmy, to be honest...but it wasn't more BattleTechy, just more sim in the gameplay.) Both of those games were great Single player adventures. However their multiplayer was a lag fest joke of silliness. This topic has some merit but is condencending to non Battletech player. As someone who does both, I can see it. You tried to be fair, saying "Some of us are elitist because we're so smart and know so much", but it didn't really work. You might have notices that many of us "bothers" took offense to this.

Besides, the pod simulators trumped both. :D

The only problem I have with TTers is that they seem to be a little out of touch with todays video games abilities, and attempt to throw in randomizers from the board game to "simulate" things that can now be acturately simulated with computer code. A simulation of a simulation if you will. Things that have been "Thrown out" from the TT before were actually probably too hard to implement, or implement with good game play value 10, 15 years ago. Championing things like CoF and adding randomizers to simulate how hard things are under a specific circumstance, a single speed ratio (3/5/9) for an engine class of mechs. Not being able to imagine a finally fair MechLab, (this is 10 years after MW4 mind you), its as if they can't think outside the boxset. Things can be calculated down to the millimeter, down to the kilogram. For my part, I know I'm taking our space robot game too far. But why not, time? Money? Ah, we've got both. Build a frame today, a skyscraper tomorrow.

Anyway, todays Wednesday should clear much of this up when the reveal how the community will interact in the game.





5 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 5 guests, 0 anonymous users