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Atlas Is Back.


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#21 Bombast

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:13 AM

View PostFupDup, on 29 October 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

There's a difference between being agile for its class/size and having the agility of a mech 45 tons below its weight (I compared it to Griffins for example).

Actually the rabbit hole goes even deeper than that, those values he suggested earlier can even compare to the Vindicator. That's kind of unfair as hell.


Ok, yah, maybe that's a bit much. But I do think the Atlas could use an agility buff. Not that much, but enough to set it apart from the rest of the assaults seems reasonable.

#22 Koniving

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:15 AM

Atlas, and by extension literally everything else... wouldn't need so many structure or armor buffs if the weapons weren't constantly getting buffs from elements such as the skill tree, quirks etc...

This said, just give the Atlas some melee skills and we can wrap this up.
Posted Image

#23 Bombast

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:18 AM

View PostKoniving, on 29 October 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Spoiler



Oh man, that angle is perfect.

#24 Khobai

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:19 AM

well the atlas also doesnt have access to any defensive techs like modular armor, hardened armor, reflective armor, ablative armor, blue shield, etc... it would slow down the TTK

the atlas cant really fulfill its role as a tank without any defensive techs

and melee wouldnt save the atlas in MWO. the thing is way too slow for melee in MWO. it only works in other games because of their turn based nature.

Edited by Khobai, 29 October 2017 - 09:21 AM.


#25 Wolfways

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:23 AM

The Atlas has light mech agility when compared to the Direwolf Posted Image

#26 YueFei

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:35 AM

View PostFupDup, on 29 October 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

There's a difference between being agile for its class/size and having the agility of a mech 45 tons below its weight (I compared it to Griffins for example).

Actually the rabbit hole goes even deeper than that, those values he suggested earlier can even compare to the Vindicator. That's kind of unfair as hell.


The problem is that the Atlas is so wide... in order to generate the necessary 1.2 meter lateral displacement to juke a shot to an adjacent hit box in the time span of human reflexes, it'd need some incredible agility. The numbers I presented are a bit rough but based on actual calculations I've done.

The alternative is to change the Atlas model to slim it down, but chances are that will never happen.

Or just quirk the hell out of it to make it super durable. But to me, that's not as interesting as making a higher skill ceiling for Atlas pilots.

#27 davoodoo

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:36 AM

View PostYueFei, on 29 October 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

The problem is that the Atlas is so wide... in order to generate the necessary 1.2 meter lateral displacement to juke a shot to an adjacent hit box in the time span of human reflexes, it'd need some incredible agility. The numbers I presented are a bit rough but based on actual calculations I've done.

Thats the thing though, most mechs cant do that despite what community claims.

Edited by davoodoo, 29 October 2017 - 09:36 AM.


#28 Athom83

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:39 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 29 October 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:


Aside from LFE granting it faster speed, I have no idea. Maybe UAC20+MRM is good now?

On my Atlas D, UAC/20, 2 MRM30, and an LFE 360... yup its pretty good. Also RAC/5, RAC/2, and 2 MRM 20s (same LFE 360 engine) is also pretty nice for a mmo classic DPS Tank role.

#29 YueFei

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:47 AM

View Postdavoodoo, on 29 October 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

Thats the thing though, most mechs cant do that despite what community claims.


A lot of Assaults cannot do it, but if you run the numbers, quite a few mechs (especially the ones most people consider good) are capable of juking hits to an adjacent hitbox.

For a non-Assault, take the Dragon for instance. It accelerates at 5 to 6 g's. Without using any leg turning at all, and simply by accel/decel at a 90 degree angle, it can displace laterally by 1.56 to 1.7 meters in 250 milliseconds. With hitboxes ~2 meters wide, even a perfectly-aimed shot at the center of a hitbox will miss to an adjacent hitbox, and that assumes perfect aim with hitscan weapons. A human shooter cannot react to it on reflex.

For Assault mechs, typically you must combine leg turning with simultaneous accel/decel in order to get sufficient lateral displacement. They usually aren't agile enough to juke just with accel/decel alone. The bare minimum you want for this, if your hitboxes are 2 meters wide, is about 20 meters/sec^2 with a turn rate of about 50 deg/sec.

The problem, like I said, is that the Atlas hitboxes are so fraggin wide, that you really have to give it ridiculous acceleration/deceleration and turn rate in order to give it the necessary agility to juke incoming fire.

#30 Koniving

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:52 AM

Two quick things.
This isn't meant to make fun of anyone.
I stand corrected on widest CT in the game. Victor rear CT is beat by someone. That edit is at the end.

View PostRovertoo, on 29 October 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

With that scale in mind though... Those cars and things we stomp around on must be like the size of one of those electric kids jeeps

This kind of proves two things... one that YueFei can't measure very well that (if he means the whole torso and even if just meaning the torso he's 0.6 meters off), and that other people don't have much of a sense of scale.

The Atlas is 17.8 meters tall in MWO according to both old and new cales, (13.6 in Battletech though fictional narrators in distress have exaggerated it to "15" and "25" meters.) and its width, as you can see for yourself, is a FUCKLOAD more than 2.4 meters.

Posted Image

Even so, it is one of the skinniest (100 ton) assaults in MWO.

King Crab isn't considered too slow for its width.

Also at the scale of 2.4 meters... It would look like this in terms of width.
Sadly I didn't adjust it to just the torso hitbox, but this gives you an idea of how rediculous that is. Was YueFei trying to measure just the CT? In yellow for your convenience (and this time I didn't bother lining up the grid perfectly, I just spun a copy of the front/top profiles, rotated minus 90 degrees, measured against the scale, rotated 90 degrees, and plopped in the middle to laugh.


Posted Image

I did it one more time for the approximate widest point of the CT hitbox, just in case if that was the screwy focus on the measurement... The CT comes out to roughly 3 meters wide and about 1.1 to 1.2 meters at the skinniest point of the CT hitbox so he may have been measuring just the CT rather than "the torso".

Note, the hitbox measurements are made by comparing the most recently available hitbox that I know of (below), and blocking in the basic idea of its widest and skinniest points with a single colored block and comparing to the scale on the left within the scale chart (you cannot go by the hitbox image itself because it is in perspective, not orthogonal and thus it is misleading.)
Posted Image
If there is a more recent hitbox model, please inform me.

If the Atlas's whole torso were 2.4 meters wide, though, those cars in the field would be 5 and 10 dollar remote control cars, not kids electric jeeps.

Side note:
The Atlas has one of the skinniest CTs of the 100 ton assaults.
For comparison to an 85 ton mech, the widest width of the Atlas's CT is the almost uniform width of the Battlemaster CT.
It is also exactly as wide as the Adder CT (terrifying thought).
The Atlas's widest point of the CT hitbox is as wide as most of the Dire Wolf's CT, skinnier than the Gargoyle's CT(no wonder that mech sucks balls) and is narrower than the King Crab's CT. The biggest contender for CT is the Victor's rear CT, larger than every other mech's front or rear hitbox in the game.

Edit:
Actually widest CT (its rear side compared to any CT on any mech) title is taken away from the Victor.

That actually belongs to the Cataphract. Victor's rear CT comes in as a close second, but the rear CT makes up for the front CT's blatant lack of width. Given the mech relies heavily on XL engines however, this is rather ******** to do. Cataphract CT is 3.2 to 3.3 (so rough guess 3.25?) meters wide, the widest CT in the game. Victor's rear CT is 3.15 to 3.2 meters wide.

Edited by Koniving, 29 October 2017 - 10:03 AM.


#31 davoodoo

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:52 AM

People consider dragon good??

But ok, night gyr 45deg/s, not much faster, equally horrible front profile, but can carry good firepower.
hbk2c, 45deg/s, even worse front profile, but can carry good firepower.
kgc 33deg/s, you can shoot ct from pretty much any angle, but can carry good firepower

Do you see where the problem with atlas is?

Edited by davoodoo, 29 October 2017 - 10:11 AM.


#32 YueFei

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 09:54 AM

I didn't say the Atlas was 2.4 meters wide. Please read more carefully. I said the torso hitboxes are about 2.4 meters wide, each.

#33 Khobai

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 10:29 AM

i wish the atlas was only 2.4 meters wide

then it would be good

#34 Paigan

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 10:46 AM

View PostPahrias, on 29 October 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Yay! the Atlas can brawl again! whoohoo!

Now, can you please sort out its daft limp when it goes up or down slight inclines?

Thanks muchly.

Did I get this right?

This is like saying "Yay, I have good news! Please explain them to me".
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Edited by Paigan, 29 October 2017 - 11:24 AM.


#35 YueFei

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 11:10 AM

View Postdavoodoo, on 29 October 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

People consider dragon good??

But ok, night gyr 45deg/s, not much faster, equally horrible front profile, but can carry good firepower.
hbk2c, 45deg/s, even worse front profile, but can carry good firepower.
kgc 33deg/s, you can shoot ct from pretty much any angle, but can carry good firepower

Do you see where the problem with atlas is?


Atlas firepower isn't going to change, and hardpoint mounting locations aren't going to change, either.

HunchbackIIC has fantastic hardpoint locations, so it can effectively hill hump with minimal exposure time even if it doesn't turn quickly (you don't use leg turning to hill hump anyways). Note also that the Night Gyr's hardpoint locations are far more favorable than the Atlas's, it uses Clan technology, and it has jump jets to boot. With longer-ranged weapons you can engage from farther out and it also makes it more difficult for enemies to focus down a component.

Not every single mech has to play to same way, anyways, nor should we desire them to play the same way, because that way just creates redundancy. Assuming the hitboxes and the model of the Atlas aren't touched, leaving hardpoint locations the same, this is not an issue that can be solved with newer tech or newer weapons, because all mechs have access to newer tech and newer weapons.

The Atlas is, at heart, gonna have to be a brawler. The problem of being a brawler is that in order to enter your own effective range, unless your team has utterly dominated and suppressed the enemy, and the enemy isn't setup to mutually support each other, you will enter line of sight of multiple enemies when you engage. You can't exactly "slice the pie" when cornering to engage to try to isolate enemies 1 at a time, because that often takes you out of your own effective range.

So the Atlas has to be tough. You can do it the unimaginative way with mega quirks for armor and structure. I have no problem with that, either. I just think there's a very interesting potential here to re-examine agility and why it should matter and how the numbers can be set. Even if the Atlas had some amazing agility, it probably still gets kited to death by anything with a significantly higher top speed and long range weapons.

#36 Khobai

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 11:45 AM

Quote

Not every single mech has to play to same way,


The problem is the way the atlas plays is worse than the way other mechs play

having low hardpoints is only ever a bad thing, theres no real situation where its better

#37 Mechrophilia

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 12:45 PM

THE ATLAS

Atlas should be the premier tank. So, given its terrible speed, hitboxes and hardpoints, pgi should actually add armor to its existing structure quirks and make it harder to kill than the annihilator ever was (a lot of armor).

It should be a uniquely huge, slow, short-range beast (with glowing eyes) that must be stripped or destroyed before it reaches within 270 meters of you, or it will rip off your face.

Oh.. and it must have a magic forcefield that prevents the installation of long range missiles.

#38 YueFei

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 12:49 PM

View PostKhobai, on 29 October 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:


The problem is the way the atlas plays is worse than the way other mechs play

having low hardpoints is only ever a bad thing, theres no real situation where its better


First of all, I never said having low slung hard points is a good thing. But let's consider what is feasible and practical for PGI to implement. They're not gonna change the Atlas hard point locations, nor will they rescale it.

Imagine an Atlas with 5 times the hitpoints it has now. It would be overpowered, but in a very very different way, and play with a different style compared to other mechs. Any mech not much faster than it eventually gets closed on and trucked. Your only chance would be to kite the hell out of it with longer ranged weapons.

But somewhere in between the current hitpoints and 5 times the number of hitpoints is a point where it would be balanced.

#39 Khobai

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 12:58 PM

The problem isnt unique to the Atlas though. Most assault mechs feel like theyre made of tissue paper.

The difference is other assault mechs have better offensive capabilities.

#40 Shifty McSwift

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 01:01 PM

View PostKhobai, on 29 October 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

The problem isnt unique to the Atlas though. Most assault mechs feel like theyre made of tissue paper.

The difference is other assault mechs have better offensive capabilities.


Well that and other assault mechs also mostly have better mobility and a smaller frame, unless they are an anni.





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