147 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 30 October 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

it will make fights far more personal.

Then call for a Solaris free-for-all instead. Nothing is more personal than that.

As I keep saying, mucking around with the current 12v12 just to compensate for a developer's inability to fix large sections of their game is a regression, not progress.

Rather than regressing, I'd rather MWO just died in flames.

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

light and medium mechs are much more powerful in 8v8 because they represent a larger portion of their team's overall tonnage. conversely lights and mediums really suffer in 12v12 because of the additional tonnage. Going back to 8v8 is important for restoring parity to the weight classes.

Again, that is just "regression" and covering it up with some "justifications". Lights, mediums, and everyone else for that matter will be better served with better maps and game modes.

El Bandito, on 30 October 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

PGI will gain more players cause many casuals will finally be able to try out this un-optimized mess of a coded game ...

The clue is right there.

Edited by Mystere, 31 October 2017 - 07:06 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Mystere, on 31 October 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Except match score can be gamed.

Winning, on the other hand, cannot. And a so-called "potato" who consistently finds himself on the winning team must be doing something right -- even if just being the team mascot.

There is a reason why many thing Elo was better than the current PSR system.

i dont agree, ELO wasnt as good as PSR, but thats not to say PSR doenst need work,
objectives need to matter much more, as well as items like Flanking and Taking Damage
(Rewards That Really Need To Be Added!)

personally though, i feel the Teir boundary should be based on Total MWO pop then points,
(20% will be in Teir1) (20% will be in Teir2)(20% will be in Teir3)(20% will be in Teir4)(20% will be in Teir5)
have a point system that only looks at the last 1000matches, and your Match score from those matches,
then it puts you on the PSR list of Players, the top 20% will always be T1, the bottom 20% always T5,

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 31 October 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

What about being bait? Vanguard? Distraction? Command? Leadership? Inspiration?

A great leader (whether or not a terrible fighter/shooter/whatever) who stays out of the fight while consistently giving out commands that make the team win will lose out on your "system".

Then as their team does better, in the quick play group queue, all he'll be doing is maybe lowering the team's average tier and maybe placing them against potentially unprepared opponents.

In the solo quick play queue, he'll be placed against people of similar rank, and if he's just bad at piloting a 'mech and firing while on the move, well, he'll still be in with the right group of players.

Win/Loss as a sole metric is failing, at least with how the current algorithm weighs wins and losses.

In the current metric, even if you lose most of your matches, if you do well enough while losing (and we're talking fairly high numbers) you can still go up, but not very much. Where as if you win, and you score pretty much zero, you're NOT going to go down.

The weighting for wins is either too high, or the punishment for losses is to low, IF we're going to maintain a win/loss oriented scoring system.

No, it's better to base it off actual performance: Kill 2 'mechs and score 200-300 damage, but your team loses, you should still go up in rank. As it is now, more than probably you're not going to get any rank increase, or worse, you'll take a rank hit.

(yeah, yeah, 2 kills with only 200-300 damage seems low, but there are a lot of us that don't spray and pray and can get kills WITHOUT having to destroy half of the 'mech to do it, PLUS, with headshots, that's a kill with less than 50 points of damage, so, y'know... REASONS!)

[Mister Blastman]

op, not soon enough.

[Mister Blastman]

Dimento Graven, on 31 October 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

We ALREADY did 8v8, it was NEVER as good as 12v12, we DO NOT need to go back and do something stupid because a few morons are 'remembering it fondly', and the idiots that never experienced it are drinking the moron's Kool-Aid...

Ahem, in YOUR opinion it wasn't, but in mine and many other player eyes, 8v8 was better. Game quality immediately dropped when they switched to 12v12, and this whole "popcorn madness" began where players poked around a corner and insta-died due to 12 player focus fire.

[Dimento Graven]

Mister Blastman, on 31 October 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Ahem, in YOUR opinion it wasn't, but in mine and many other player eyes, 8v8 was better. Game quality immediately dropped when they switched to 12v12, and this whole "popcorn madness" began where players poked around a corner and insta-died due to 12 player focus fire.

If you're poking around a corner and have 12 enemies facing you:

You're doing it wrong, you're bad at it, and you should stop doing it.

If you're that bloody bad at it, trust me, having 8 'mechs facing you when you poke around that corner means you're JUST as dead.

Again, just using average numbers here:

(avg. 50 point damage alpha x 8 'mechs) + (the avg 120 point CT) = dead one round.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 31 October 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[El Bandito]

Asym, on 31 October 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

I nornally agree with you but not this time...

Look, better players want 8x8 because they can "farm faster" with less clutter...

I've actually asked players I know and those are their words... Sync drop in and farm faster and more efficiently.... It worked earlier because it was a new game. People have "gamed the system" now and figured out what is the fastest and easiest way to farm.... We read about it each and every day on this forum... So I asked" Why would you prefer 8x8 and the answer was about 90% of the time "because it is faster (to farm noobs and weaker players)". People in this game enjoy that if you haven't figured that out my friend. I was TK's in FP when I insisted that we finish a match in "single combat" vrs farming the spawn site......

That's hogwash. I do a lot of solo-drops and the amount of sync-dropping is miniscule to the point of not noticeable. If anything, syncdropping will become less effective in 8v8, since there will be more matches going on at once, compared to 12v12. You basically invalidated your own argument.

Dimento Graven, on 31 October 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

We ALREADY did 8v8, it was NEVER as good as 12v12, we DO NOT need to go back and do something stupid because a few morons are 'remembering it fondly', and the idiots that never experienced it are drinking the moron's Kool-Aid...

I was there and I disagree with your assessment. 8v8 had much less deathballing compared to 12v12, as proven by all the old videos I had stored in my YT account.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 October 2017 - 06:50 AM.

[Mystere]

SFC174, on 30 October 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

You guys who want 8v8, good for you. But its because you like it, remember it fondly, or think it will be better. But there is no evidence it will improve matchmaking, TTK or in game experience. You can make a case that it will improve PC resource utilization, server load, and queue time. Personally I don't think those things are a big deal in Solo QP. I still want them to address player ranking and MM before they try something like 8v8.

It's called "treating the symptoms" instead of "curing the disease".

[Mister Blastman]

Dimento Graven, on 31 October 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Again, just using average numbers here:

Less eyeballs on the enemy team means it is easier to flank and easier for one of them to not notice you.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 31 October 2017 - 06:54 AM.

[Mystere]

GoatHILL, on 31 October 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

The MWOWC is 8v8 because it saved PGI the price of 12 plane tickets. Russ said as much in the town hall when he laid everything out.

It had nothing to do with game play.

Now that is what I call an interesting -- and very revealing -- piece of information.

[Mystere]

Asym, on 31 October 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Look, better players want 8x8 because they can "farm faster" "look like conquering heroes" with less clutter...

FTFY.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 31 October 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

Then as their team does better, in the quick play group queue, all he'll be doing is maybe lowering the team's average tier and maybe placing them against potentially unprepared opponents.

In the solo quick play queue, he'll be placed against people of similar rank, and if he's just bad at piloting a 'mech and firing while on the move, well, he'll still be in with the right group of players.

Win/Loss as a sole metric is failing, at least with how the current algorithm weighs wins and losses.

In the current metric, even if you lose most of your matches, if you do well enough while losing (and we're talking fairly high numbers) you can still go up, but not very much. Where as if you win, and you score pretty much zero, you're NOT going to go down.

The weighting for wins is either too high, or the punishment for losses is to low, IF we're going to maintain a win/loss oriented scoring system.

No, it's better to base it off actual performance: Kill 2 'mechs and score 200-300 damage, but your team loses, you should still go up in rank. As it is now, more than probably you're not going to get any rank increase, or worse, you'll take a rank hit.

(yeah, yeah, 2 kills with only 200-300 damage seems low, but there are a lot of us that don't spray and pray and can get kills WITHOUT having to destroy half of the 'mech to do it, PLUS, with headshots, that's a kill with less than 50 points of damage, so, y'know... REASONS!)

Your post does not address the "great leader who would rather lead than fight directly" case, among other things that cannot be measured but help win the game.

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

That's hogwash. I do a lot of solo-drops and the amount of sync-dropping is miniscule to the point of not noticeable. If anything, syncdropping will become less effective in 8v8, since there will be more matches going on at once, compared to 12v12. You basically invalidated your own argument.

I was there and I disagree with your assessment. 8v8 had much less deathballing compared to 12v12, as proven by all the old videos I had stored in my YT account.

I respectfully and completly disagree.
I see sync drops everyday with advance players using alias accounts (it pays to record end screens and ask guys like you who knows whom these players are)....WOW that was some tier 4!!! Nope, a T1 founder on a third-forth-fifth account.) And, that's an interesting thing to: how many alias accounts do some players play on? On my team, we have no less than 3 players with 3 seperate accounts and each account is on a different team...... We have one player that has a clan, an IS and a Mercenary account.....

I've played 8x8 in the COMP que and it's less fun: period. No maybes, nothing to recommend other that it is faster..... Farm, beat some seal cubs for the dun of it, repeat........now, instead of 12 minutes it's 9 minutes..... Is that quality?

Edited by Asym, 31 October 2017 - 07:12 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Asym, on 31 October 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

I respectfully and completly disagree.
I see sync drops everyday with advance players using alias accounts (it pays to record end screens and ask guys like you who knows whom these players are)....WOW that was some tier 4!!! Nope, a T1 founder on a third-forth-fifth account.) And, that's an interesting thing to: how many alias accounts do some players play on? On my team, we have no less than 3 players with 3 seperate accounts and each account is on a different team...... We have one player that has a clan, an IS and a Mercenary account.....

sync dropping is not an easy thing to do, its mostly up to chance,
you have to make sure your PSR is just right, even if your in the same Teir their no guarantee,
and IF you get into the same match as the person your trying to sync drop with, you may be on the other team.
in that case their no advantage being rended to ether side,
-
id love to see your screen shot of this happening,
as saying to happens Everyday is quite extraordinary,


also Alt accounts is another problem in its self and has no relation to Sync Dropping,
some times people have a Clan and an IS account, few people actually make new accounts to farm T4-5 players,
though most people like to win, most also like a challenge, and wining with no challenge i wouldnt consider fun,

Asym, on 31 October 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

I've played 8x8 in the COMP que and it's less fun: period. No maybes, nothing to recommend other that it is faster..... Farm, beat some seal cubs for the dun of it, repeat........now, instead of 12 minutes it's 9 minutes..... Is that quality?

its hard to compare the extreme organization of 8v8 Comp Que, to a 8v8 Quick play test,
-
in Comp everyone only brings tried and practiced Mechs that are fully decked out, and trained on,
this is enhanced by the teams map strategy and the training on how the group moves as a whole,
-
compared to what 8v8 solo would look like, you would have next to non of that,
most will take what they feel like playing and will muddle around and have fun,
ive had very few Solo matches where someone took over and target called,

comparing 8v8 Comp with solo is much like comparing jogging with Olympic running,
i guess very few people can run like an Olympian, so whats the point of Jogging?

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 October 2017 - 07:38 AM.

[Khobai]

well its pretty clear were not all gonna agree that 8v8 is better than 12v12.

can we at least all agree that matchmaker should use matchscore instead of wins/losses for elevating players?

top8 match score advances in rank
middle8 stay the same
bottom8 go down in rank

that way players dont get into tiers they dont deserve to be in and the matchmaker might actually start working...

that would at least fix the issue of not having to carry as many terrible players in 12v12 because players would actually be in the tiers they belong in.

Quote

Except match score can be gamed.

Winning, on the other hand, cannot. And a so-called "potato" who consistently finds himself on the winning team must be doing something right -- even if just being the team mascot.

There is a reason why many think Elo was better than the current PSR system.

so change match score so it cant be gamed? pretty simple.

if you make it so every action awards an appropriate amount of match score, there is no way to game it.

it would just require adjusting the match score awarded for things like ams shooting down missiles, which is currently set way too high. you shouldnt get like 600 match score because you shot down 2000 missiles.

its an easy fix. its not really a problem to fix that at all.

Quote

Less eyeballs on the enemy team means it is easier to flank and easier for one of them to not notice you.

another legitimate reason 8v8 was better. it was harder to cover all flanks with 8 mechs. which made flanking much more possible.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 07:55 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mister Blastman, on 31 October 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

Less eyeballs on the enemy team means it is easier to flank and easier for one of them to not notice you.

Oh so what you are saying is that you want 8v8 because it is easier for you. You don't like having to work as hard to sneak off and surprise the enemy.

To me that is an argument FOR 12v12 not against.

Yes it should be more risky to do things like that.

But again if the result of your poking around the corner is you getting face shot by the entire enemy team, that is a problem for you that 8v8 is NOT going to resolve.

[Bigbacon]

again old 8v8 worked because the game wasn't a complete pile of unbalanced trash.

it was a hugely different game back then.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 31 October 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

Your post does not address the "great leader who would rather lead than fight directly" case, among other things that cannot be measured but help win the game.

Granted, but in the group queue those result in better scores for the team, and while the drop caller may not directly benefit, he does get the advantage of grouping with individuals of better ranking. In the solo queue those unmeasurables are limited in effect, at best, due to the typical "cat herding " nature of that particular queue and he'd be matched with and against appropriately skilled players.

[Mr Snrub]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 October 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

sync dropping is not an easy thing to do, its mostly up to chance,
you have to make sure your PSR is just right, even if your in the same Teir their no guarantee,
and IF you get into the same match as the person your trying to sync drop with, you may be on the other team.
in that case their no advantage being rended to ether side,
-
id love to see your screen shot of this happening,

This happened several times at the weekend:

Edited by Mr Snrub, 31 October 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[Mystere]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 October 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

ive had very few Solo matches where someone took over and target called,

Most of the players I used to see doing just that I no longer see.

Heck, I myself no longer give a flying **** about doing the same. I just go "Is my HOTAS doing what I want or should I adjust its programming again" when dropping in MWO.