36 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

simple topic,

what if you got bonus cooldown for having less weapons?
lets say it caps at 3 weapons, so any more gives no bonus,

1 Weapon on mech = -45% Bonus Cooldown,
2 Weapons on mech = -30% Bonus Cooldown,
3 Weapons on mech = -15% Bonus Cooldown,
4 Weapons on mech = no Bonus Cooldown,

this could give smaller mechs that only use 1-3 weapons a boost,
LCT, COM, SDR, UM, PNT, ADR, SHC, VND,

as well as mechs that use builds that may not use allot of Hardpoints,
CAT-K2, MAD-C, KGC(any), VTR-9K,

if nothing else could this add new variety to mechs and builds?


what do you think, would this add some variety?
or do you feel it may not matter and change much?

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks


PS
yes i know some one will bring up what about a 2Guass 1ERPPC Build,
its not a perfect idea but perhaps it could help some builds and mechs,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 30 October 2017 - 05:15 PM.

[N0ni]

Barring dual guass only builds.

Quickdraw IV-4. Currently has -20% cooldown for ballistics and missiles. Since you'll only be taking 2 weapons of either class, you're looking at -50% cooldown before skill tree.

2 AC10s with 1.25s cooldown and 2 MRM30s with 2.15s cooldown. (Before taking cooldown nodes).


Might be a bit excessive for a pay-only mech. (Just as an example)

[Johnny Z]

This is why lrm 5's, srm and streak 2's are so good.

Edited by Johnny Z, 30 October 2017 - 05:26 PM.

[FupDup]

If such a system were to exist, it would have to be altered on a per-weapon basis. For example, hitting the 4 weapon mark with Small Lasers is mandatory if you want to be effective, but for PPCs you will always use just 2 (thus getting your 30% cooldown buff).

[Andi Nagasia]

N0ni, on 30 October 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

Barring dual guass only builds.

Quickdraw IV-4. Currently has -20% cooldown for ballistics and missiles. Since you'll only be taking 2 weapons of either class, you're looking at -50% cooldown before skill tree.

2 AC10s with 1.25s cooldown and 2 MRM30s with 2.15s cooldown. (Before taking cooldown nodes).


Might be a bit excessive for a pay-only mech. (Just as an example)

but it would be Only 2AC10s, or Only 2MRM30s, having all 4 would count as 4 weapons,

FupDup, on 30 October 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

If such a system were to exist, it would have to be altered on a per-weapon basis. For example, hitting the 4 weapon mark with Small Lasers is mandatory if you want to be effective, but for PPCs you will always use just 2 (thus getting your 30% cooldown buff).

but would this really be a problem?
most mechs that only take those and nothing else are ether Lights and Small Mediums, or the CAT-K2,
the idea for this is to help lights and mediums with only 1-3 weapons, helping those mechs the most,
ya you could take only 2AC20 on your ANI but why would you only take them and nothing else,

[Khobai]

no thanks all that does is punish assault mechs

[FupDup]

Andi Nagasia, on 30 October 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

but would this really be a problem?
most mechs that only take those and nothing else are ether Lights and Small Mediums, or the CAT-K2,
the idea for this is to help lights and mediums with only 1-3 weapons, helping those mechs the most,
ya you could take only 2AC20 on your ANI but why would you only take them and nothing else,

Yes it would be a problem. The loadouts that benefit most would be those double PPC mechs I mentioned earlier, such as the Summoner and Nova (which are already amazing).

Having any kind of system based on weapon count be a universal across all weapons is stupid because not all weapons are created equally. Weapons have different values, so such a system should value them differently. One Machine Gun does not equal one PPC.

[N0ni]

Andi Nagasia, on 30 October 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

but it would be Only 2AC10s, or Only 2MRM30s, having all 4 would count as 4 weapons,

Couldn't fit all 4 weapons on it anyway, which is why i said you'll only be taking 2 weapons of either class meaning 2 ACs or 2 MRMs. The cooldowns on a pay-only mech such as the IV-4 would be excessive compared to F2P options.

Another example: Ye old Yen Lo Wang.
Currently: -20% AC20 cooldown before skills (10 general ballistic, 10 AC20 specific). The ideal loadout being the AC/20 + SnPPC. (2 weapons).
Using your proposed cooldowns for only taking two weapons (30% bonus), this would give the AC/20 -50% cooldown before skill nodes. The only other option for an AC20 Centurion is the AH (-20% cooldown total for AC20), but you're likely to have 2-3 SRM packs on it as well reducing or ignoring any cooldown benefit.

This would make the Yen Lo Wang a better AC20 platform since the only other option will have reduced benefits from this system. It's also a pay-only mech.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 30 October 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

simple topic,

what if you got bonus cooldown for having less weapons?
lets say it caps at 3 weapons, so any more gives no bonus,

1 Weapon on mech = -45% Bonus Cooldown,
2 Weapons on mech = -30% Bonus Cooldown,
3 Weapons on mech = -15% Bonus Cooldown,
4 Weapons on mech = no Bonus Cooldown,

this could give smaller mechs that only use 1-3 weapons a boost,
LCT, COM, SDR, UM, PNT, ADR, SHC, VND,

I'd rather have PGI give those mechs more hardpoints, damn the lore.

[Xiphias]

A pure application of your system is going to encourage low "boating" the biggest weapon(s) that a mech can mount, with the sweet spot probably being 2 benefiting mediums and heavies the most. Thinks like 2xGauss, 2xPPC, 2xAC20, would all become really good while mechs that rely on light weapons wouldn't gain much if anything unless they were already under-hardpointed. The spider 5V is still bad even with a 50% cooldown and something like the Jenner-K gains nothing.

You have to adjust this by weapons or it would incredibly skewed towards the heaviest weapons (Heavy Gauss anyone?). Any light mech that is decent already has to take at least 4 weapons so it doesn't really help lights.

[Khobai]

a better solution is just to give more hardpoints to the mechs that are lacking hardpoints

[InvictusLee]

Suddenly mechs with single or dual primary weapons would become OP.
Yen-Lo-Wang, which is a pain to kill to start with, would be OP.
Any Victor would be OP.
King Crabs, using only AC20's would become OP.

The idea sounds nice but I feel will probably poorly executed.

[Nighthawk513]

The biggest issue I can see with this is Dual heavy ballistics.
Or Dual ATM12 on a MDD-H. Getting hit for 72 every 2.5 seconds until they hit heat cap? No thanks you.

[Dr Hobo]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

a better solution is just to give more hardpoints to the mechs that are lacking hardpoints

Not really,hardpoint bloating is already too much.

[Khobai]

Quote

Not really,hardpoint bloating is already too much.

huh? if you give a catapult with 6 hardpoints two extra hardpoints thats not hardpoint bloating. Since most other heavies have 8-10 hardpoints.

not sure what youre talking about.

were not talking about giving mechs with lots of hardpoints more hardpoints. were talking about giving mechs that lack hardpoints more hardpoints.

thats hardpoint equalization not hardpoint bloating. its to help make older mechs like the catapult more viable again.

equalizing hardpoints in that manner is preferable to giving a potentially abusable cooldown buff to certain weapons for using less of them. I mean thats just creating a new balance problem we really dont need. And it really undermines assault mechs by punishing them for taking more weapons than other weight classes. there is no reason to do that. mechs with less weapons should not be rewarded for having less weapons, that makes no sense.

Edited by Khobai, 30 October 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[Bombast]

Just diminishing returns in reverse.

Which I've advocated for before. So sure, I'm game.

[Dr Hobo]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

huh? if you give a catapult with 6 hardpoints two extra hardpoints thats not hardpoint bloating.

not sure what youre talking about.

were not talking about giving mechs with lots of hardpoints more hardpoints. were talking about giving mechs that lack hardpoints more hardpoints.

thats hardpoint equalization not hardpoint bloating. its to help make older mechs like the catapult more viable again.

Why?

Giving extra hardpoints just hurts you because of tonnage/slot/cooling restrictions. And to think of it,where are you gonna put those extra weapons?

The Catapult is still viable. It doesn't need more weapons,it needs a way to stand out to it's peers of newer and newer mechs. Throwing more weapons at it isn't a really good solution sadly.

I'd rather see mechs with lower weapon counts to get better cooling efficiency.

[Khobai]

Quote

Giving extra hardpoints just hurts you because of tonnage/slot/cooling restrictions. And to think of it,where are you gonna put those extra weapons?

increasing the catapults hardpoints from 6 to 8 would not hurt it in the least.

that is only a buff.

Quote

The Catapult is still viable. It doesn't need more weapons,it needs a way to stand out to it's peers of newer and newer mechs. Throwing more weapons at it isn't a really good solution sadly.

huh? but the whole reason why the catapult doesnt stand out among its peers is its lack of hardpoints.

its offensively lacking compared to other heavies specifically because of its lack of hardpoints.

Quote

I'd rather see mechs with lower weapon counts to get better cooling efficiency.

why? heatsinks are what adds cooling efficiency. you undermine the purpose of paying tonnage for heatsinks if you allow mechs to increase their cooling efficiency by not paying for heatsinks and just taking less of a particular weapon instead. thats just a bad idea. theres tons of potential for abuse there.

why should a light mech with 10 heatsinks have proportionally better heat efficiency than an assault with 20 heatsinks just because the light has 1-2 of a weapon while the assault has 5-6 of that weapon?

that concept is just as illogical as ghost heat. its like ghost heat in reverse.

Edited by Khobai, 30 October 2017 - 07:58 PM.

[Dr Hobo]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

huh? the whole reason why the catapult doesnt stand out among its peers is its lack of hardpoints.




why? heatsinks are what adds cooling efficiency. you undermine the purpose of paying tonnage for heatsinks if you allow mechs to increase their cooling efficiency by not paying for heatsinks. thats just a bad idea.

1-Not really. It's not new and shiny anymore. Butterbee is the newest one locked behind a paywall. There's not many effective builds for most people(as most people don't want LRMs,or Splat builds,most just get the Boomapult). It isn't hardpoints are the problem,you just run out of slots and tonnage. Since you don't need the rule of 3 anymore,you just get the boomapult,and maybe the splatapult and you're done with the entire tree.

LRMs have so many counters it's not even funny anymore. MRMS are bleh? Fun to use,but not the most effective. Splats are only good if boated(and only one can do that).

It also doesn't help the fact that the mech is incredibly expensive to fit properly. XL engine,Artemis,Command console(even if it is worthless,I still run it because that lock time buff) DHS,endo,AMS,then all your weapons.

2-less weapons mean the heatsinks don't have to work as hard to cool the mech. Ergo, tbh I'd rather see heat efficiency buffs than more hard points. I've been running the same build on my Catapult that I've run since i got it from the Founders pack. 2 LRM 15A(once that was a thing) DHS,Endo,XL engine,AMS,command console,ERML,and 1 JJ. The rest is spread between heatsinks and ammo.

It's not a problem with the mech,it's a problem with mechanics and map design.

[davoodoo]

Stop wasting tonnafe on command console and youll be able to fit more dhs and weapons.