86 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

SeventhSL, on 31 October 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

This creates a trade off for boating (alpha strike) and as such it is an excellent solution. My only issue is that is doesn't go far enough. We also need trade offs for things like speed, hard point placement and uncompetitive weapons like LRM/ LBX. While we could manufacture a game mechanic for each of these there is one that could cover all of it. Accuracy. The bigger the alpha strike the less accurate it is. The faster your moving the less accurate your fire. Well your get the idea.

Isn't the trade-off for speed the fact that have to either spend more tonnage on a large engine OR use a smaller mech that has less armor and firepower?

We don't need this game to turn into purely static firing lines with movement penalties.

Edited by FupDup, 31 October 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[SeventhSL]

FupDup, on 31 October 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

Isn't the trade-off for speed the fact that have to either spend more tonnage on a large engine OR use a smaller mech that has less armor and firepower?

We don't need this game to turn into purely static firing lines with movement penalties.

You are right we don't need the game to turn into a purely static play style but that depends entirly on the size of the accuracy modifiers applied. To little and it is of no effect. To much and the game becomes static.

Think of it more like this. There are two Mechs of the same weight but due to tech base, hard point restrictions etc there are two key differences between them. The one has a 15pt bigger alpha strike and goes 10km faster. Outside of the initial build there is no trade off for speed and alpha so that one mech is clearly superior to the other.

Now if we added the correct accuracy modifiers the Mech that goes slower with a smaller alpha strike has its own advantage. It has additional accuracy. Now both mechs have the same Effective damage while stationary and on the move. The choice between them is now more about play style then the tech base, hard points, etc they were built on.

Our current meta is dominated by Clan because bigger alpha strike and more speed is simply better. You either clone clan tech and pretend it is IS or you put game mechanics in place which give IS mechs some advantage to trade against speed, alpha, hard points etc. IS would not be the only winners though. Think about all those slow Clan lights. It is a win for any Mech that can't compete in the current high alpha, NASCAR poke meta.

Edited by SeventhSL, 31 October 2017 - 07:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

SeventhSL, on 31 October 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

Now if we added the correct accuracy modifiers the Mech that goes slower with a smaller alpha strike has its own advantage. It has additional accuracy which will allow it to put out the same Effective damage as the other mech.

You know, the same exact arguments can made about laser duration. It doesn't work, though. It doesn't work because some 'Mechs have big hit-boxes that even poorly converging weapons don't have issues striking and it doesn't work because stopping for 1.25 seconds to make sure the damage goes where you want is of trivial consequence when that damage rates between 70 and 94 points.

[Kin3ticX]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 October 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

didnt i propose something like this earlier this morning?
(What If Having Less Weapons Gave You Better Cooldown On Those Weapons?)
yup, but i agree, having less weapons should offer a cooldown bonus, especially for 1-2 weapon mechs,
but personally i feel it should be Max weapons rather then max Laser / Missile / Ballistic,

Kin3ticX, on 21 October 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

The massive flaw with energy draw is that it was a nested power bar within a power bar. If you think about it, in some sense the heat bar is actually a power bar in reverse making ED nested and thus critically flawed in terms of game design. Due to this, I was always in the anti power bar camp.

Energy draw drew all kinds of support that it didn't deserve because players thought it would smash the meta tryhards and everyone would be suddenly gud in special snowflake builds. A Faustian bargain of sorts because it would have screwed the game up.

What I would support is a soft system called "reverse boating" to work along side heat scaling. Basically the more you boat **** the higher your cooldowns or burn times go. People that run mix builds would like such a system as this as they like to chime in with that 1 weapon at different ranges, yet they are totally outguned at every range they fight at. It would be a pro bracket build system even though I think those builds are a joke.

[SeventhSL]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

You know, the same exact arguments can made about laser duration. It doesn't work, though. It doesn't work because some 'Mechs have big hit-boxes that even poorly converging weapons don't have issues striking and it doesn't work because stopping for 1.25 seconds to make sure the damage goes where you want is of trivial consequence when that damage rates between 70 and 94 points.

Sorry I modified the post while you were writing. It is still the same meaning though.

It is not just trading for speed. It is the size of the alph too. So even if the mechs were stationary or doing the same speed a 70 alpha will be far more accurate than a 90pt one. It isn't just speed and alpha trade either. Each weapon needs an accuracy base and things like arm mountsand heat threshold would need accuracy modifiers too.

Accuracy isn't a silver Bullet for everything. So for example a big hit box will still need armour quirks like we have now. A proper accuracy mechanic would remove ghost heat but more importantly it would give less competitive mechs something to trade. Even if you removed Clan from the game there is still going to be a lot of subpar uncompetitive Mechs. You have to have some advantage to going slower, smaller alpha strike etc that they can use to trade on equal terms.

[Kin3ticX]

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 31 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.

One of the simplest ways to stop boating of any ammo based weapon is to introduce jamming.

2 weapons of the same type or less, no jamming.

However once you go past 2, the odds of a jam and the length of time needed to clear then jam increase at a more dramatic rate the further you go past this threshold.

Quite simple.

It is not meant to stop boating, it is meant to boost mix builds against specialized mechs. It wouldnt close the gap but it would increase performance of bracket builds by a percentage.

FantasticMrDark, on 31 October 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

Boated Autocannons are not really an issue right now.

They are just examples. I am not trying to lobby to nerf AC10s which I myself almost never use. The baselines and steppings are highly adjustable.

There was some discussion about quirks being the solution. IMO, PGI is unable to quirk. I dont know the exact number but I want to say there are 600+ variants in this game now. They will need a universal system such as what they did with the Skill Tree(where all mechs have the same # of skill pts).

PGI quirking stuff has been a sea saw ranging from completely silly to entirely ineffective. You cant quirk a hardpoint and some mechs are downright unquirkable.

[SpectreHD]

Bud Crue, on 31 October 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

In re #3...not as long as the balance overlord maintains his whole “offensive quirks are bad and need to be dramatically reduced” view of balance. Its a single crit space for a single weapon class, give it all the quirks you care to (within reason) and it is not going to upset balance...but nope its deadly power creep. Sigh.

Eh? Isn't PGI still doing this? Looking at my NST, and other recently released mechs, variants with only 1 type of hardpoint do get quirks for them like better cooldown.

I do feel quirks is a more easy and straightforward way to boost mechs that have one crit space for a single weapon as you say.

[Y E O N N E]

SeventhSL, on 31 October 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Sorry I modified the post while you were writing. It is still the same meaning though.

It is not just trading for speed. It is the size of the alph too. So even if the mechs were stationary or doing the same speed a 70 alpha will be far more accurate than a 90pt one. It isn't just speed and alpha trade either. Each weapon needs an accuracy base and things like arm mountsand heat threshold would need accuracy modifiers too.

Accuracy isn't a silver Bullet for everything. So for example a big hit box will still need armour quirks like we have now. A proper accuracy mechanic would remove ghost heat but more importantly it would give less competitive mechs something to trade. Even if you removed Clan from the game there is still going to be a lot of subpar uncompetitive Mechs. You have to have some advantage to going slower, smaller alpha strike etc that they can use to trade on equal terms.

I mean, look at the current game.

The biggest imbalance, by far, is Clan assaults against IS Assaults. Heavies can go back and forth reasonably well. IS Mediums can go back and forth reasonably well. Lights, too (well, ML nerf hurt, kinda still up in the air). But Assaults? Those 'Mechs with the biggest hit-boxes, the slowest turn and twist rates? With the highest disparity in alpha size? I just want you to understand exactly how wide that spread pattern is going to have to be to be properly effective. I also want you to understand that if both the Clan and IS are still doing the same effective damage to one component, the Clan version remains flatly superior because the collateral damage creates targets of opportunity from alternative angles and at later times.

[Jack Booted Thug]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

AFAIK the banshee has the same hardpoints its always had. Obviously they wont give people a 95 ton mech with 3 hardpoints.

Executioner B and C would like to have a word with PGI then..... 3 hardpoints.... .. pgi .... wouldn't.... lol





yea I know you can swap pods... but still

[Shadowomega1]

I know the best anti boat solution, a fix 35 heat cap. Go ahead fire that alpha that generates 60 heat to deal that 100 points of damage, but that is all the damage you are going to do that match.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 31 October 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

I know the best anti boat solution, a fix 35 heat cap. Go ahead fire that alpha that generates 60 heat to deal that 100 points of damage, but that is all the damage you are going to do that match.

And then we just get into a DPS arms race.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

It is not meant to stop boating, it is meant to boost mix builds against specialized mechs. It wouldnt close the gap but it would increase performance of bracket builds by a percentage.



They are just examples. I am not trying to lobby to nerf AC10s which I myself almost never use. The baselines and steppings are highly adjustable.

There was some discussion about quirks being the solution. IMO, PGI is unable to quirk. I dont know the exact number but I want to say there are 600+ variants in this game now. They will need a universal system such as what they did with the Skill Tree(where all mechs have the same # of skill pts).

PGI quirking stuff has been a sea saw ranging from completely silly to entirely ineffective. You cant quirk a hardpoint and some mechs are downright unquirkable.

SpectreHD, on 31 October 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

Eh? Isn't PGI still doing this? Looking at my NST, and other recently released mechs, variants with only 1 type of hardpoint do get quirks for them like better cooldown.

I do feel quirks is a more easy and straightforward way to boost mechs that have one crit space for a single weapon as you say.

I've never understood why PGI didn't develop a quirk 'formula' for mechs, something to follow that just makes common sense for any mech of either tech tree. 1 or 2 hardpoints, give it some cooldown/rate of fire/duration quirks so it narrows (can't erase) the gap between this mech and one that has 2 or 3 times the hardpoints. Few or no high mounted hardpoints, automatic side and center torso armor buffs since this mech has to expose everything from the waist up, while some mechs only need 30 percent or less. Large hit boxes, armor buffs again to those particular segments. Yes you would still need adjustment to the values based on each mech, but their should be some guidelines at least to help out some of the mechs that have practically disappeared due to power creep.

As to the OP's suggestion, it doesn't really hurt the mech that has 8 ML versus a mech with 1 ML, it still is doing 8 times the amount of damage. Yah increased cooldown would be a penalty, but one that comes with the ability to drop a large multiplier to damage over your opponent. As it stands now, that 8 hardpoint mech still gets that damage increase, the single hardpoint mech just gets no compensation (and becomes obsolete).

Edited by Tincan Nightmare, 31 October 2017 - 09:01 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

And then we just get into a DPS arms race.

And to do that they are going to need DHS lots of DHS which means less weapons and more space taken up.

[davoodoo]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

back at the height of the 4PPC HighladerP, the 4PPC stalker, and the 6PPC stalker, PPC heat was only 7 and double coolshots were brand new.

Then it wasnt ghost heat that "fixed" that but tt heat values.

Edited by davoodoo, 31 October 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 31 October 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

And to do that they are going to need DHS lots of DHS which means less weapons and more space taken up.

Not really.

Clans currently bring between 20 and 30 DHS and already dramatically out-pace IS in terms of sustained DPS because IS weapons are just as hot for the damage and they typically only bring between 15-19.

So I misspoke. There won't be a DPS war because that war is already over.

We already saw this happen during the ED PTS, and things have only gotten worse since then.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

Not really.

Clans currently bring between 20 and 30 DHS and already dramatically out-pace IS in terms of sustained DPS because IS weapons are just as hot for the damage and they typically only bring between 15-19.

So I misspoke. There won't be a DPS war because that war is already over.

We already saw this happen during the ED PTS, and things have only gotten worse since then.

Im still facepalming when i hear mwo lasers being dps...especially when somebody mentions muh dps pulse.

But lets see how dps race will look like in reality.

On clan side our contender kdk3 with 2 uac10 2 uac5 sorry i forgot 4 uac10, on is side kgc with 4 uac5 or 2 uac10. k
On clan side hbk2c with 2 uac10, on is side enforcer with 2 uac5.

But hey we can roll out big guns like 2 uac20 kgc, im sure clans can at best match that
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6de6b0a62358893

Gauss meta at least will be still alive

Is would be even more outclassed when it comes to dps ballistics than it is boating mediums lasers which at least weigh as much as clan counterparts.

Edited by davoodoo, 31 October 2017 - 10:12 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 31 October 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

Im still facepalming when i hear mwo lasers being dps...especially when somebody mentions muh dps pulse.

But lets see how dps race will look like in reality.

On clan side our contender kdk3 with 2 uac10 2 uac5 sorry i forgot 4 uac10, on is side kgc with 4 uac5 or 2 uac10. k
On clan side hbk2c with 2 uac10, on is side enforcer with 2 uac5.

But hey we can roll out big guns like 2 uac20 kgc, im sure clans can at best match that
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6de6b0a62358893

Gauss meta at least will be still alive

Is would be even more outclassed when it comes to dps ballistics than it is boating mediums lasers which at least weigh as much as clan counterparts.

When discussing DPS and lasers, it isn't about the full-expose DPS that you use UACs for. This is for poking. If you are running overly hot, you leave gaps in your wall of fire that the enemy can exploit. If both sides happened to equip for poke, the side with the superior sustain can push on the other one. It's that simple. That's what happened in the ED PTS. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if that superior sustained output wasn't also joined by both superior damage and superior range, but it is.

If you happened to bring ballistics, then the other side can't push on you, but you also can't really poke very well because of projectile flight time requiring before-hand knowledge of where the target is going to be in order to properly calculate deflection.

But even ballistics vs. ballistics goes to the Clans simply because IS ballistics boats don't typically bring extra DHS. Clan ones do.

[slide]

Whilst I don't have a problem with OP's idea, it won't work in the current environment for the exact same reason ghost heat, energy draw etc won't work. It will all just devolve into the least worst option to get maximum alpha. As someone said, eventually forced chain fire.

If we want to make the game more like BT and less alpha warrior online then we have to get away from the "biggest alpha, all the time" mindset. 80+ pinpoint alphas completely breaks the armor system this game was based on. Even with the doubled armor values we have, it basically means that mechs are 2 shot kills instead of 1 (maybe 3 for some big heavily quirked assaults). This needs to be a game mechanic that neither hurts stock or hard point starved mechs whilst reigning in the mechs with good hard point allocations.

The only way to achieve this is for the community to decide what is an acceptable size alpha and then limit weapons groups to that size alpha with a minimum cool down time between each group. This gives the target a chance to spread damage (like the damage model is supposed to do) or seek cover. Walking around a corner and being 1 shot by a huge alpha is not BT and is not fun unless you are the one doing the shooting. It is more in the realm of COD or other shooters.

My suggestion is 20 damage/group with a 1.5 second cool down between groups. These numbers achieve the following.
-limits pin point damage
-encourages mixed builds or at least doesn't make them a liability
-discourages a DPS race (see note 1)
-encourages bracket builds on some mechs (also see note 1)
-increases TTK
-closes the gap between IS and Clan
-doesn't make some weapons or builds completely obsolete every time a new mech is released or something is nerfed.
-makes individual high damage weapons more useful than boating lots of small weapons. This increases the appeal of mechs like the Centurian with the big AC20 over a mech that can take lots of lasers.

Note 1:
The idea here is to set the timing of 3-4 weapons groups to be roughly equal to the average cool down of weapons. It becomes pointless to put on more of the same weapon at this point. Assuming you could bring 8 large lasers with a cool down of 5 seconds. Making 4 groups of 2 LL is pointless because 1 group becomes redundant, because at 4.5 seconds (3 groups) the first group fired is ready to fire again before the 4th group could be fired anyway. This then raises the question of should I bring something else for a different situation. It also makes those single hard points more useful because you can use it for something that doesn't just increase the alpha potential. Putting a missile launcher on a Grasshopper for example, because more lasers won't achieve anything.

IMO if mechs are restricted to 20 damage per shot and around 60 damage every 5-6 seconds then this evens the playing field considerably between all kinds of mechs whilst putting the emphasis back on skill rather than large alphas.

If people still want huge alphas in the game then make the Alpha Strike a consumable. You get it once so make it count.

[davoodoo]

Im fairly certain protomechs can break 20 damage...
even 20 ton locust have 30 dmg heat neutral alpha in tt.

battletech mechs are about big alphas.

Edited by davoodoo, 31 October 2017 - 10:55 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Tincan Nightmare, on 31 October 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

I've never understood why PGI didn't develop a quirk 'formula' for mechs, something to follow that just makes common sense for any mech of either tech tree. 1 or 2 hardpoints, give it some cooldown/rate of fire/duration quirks so it narrows (can't erase) the gap between this mech and one that has 2 or 3 times the hardpoints. Few or no high mounted hardpoints, automatic side and center torso armor buffs since this mech has to expose everything from the waist up, while some mechs only need 30 percent or less. Large hit boxes, armor buffs again to those particular segments. Yes you would still need adjustment to the values based on each mech, but their should be some guidelines at least to help out some of the mechs that have practically disappeared due to power creep.

As to the OP's suggestion, it doesn't really hurt the mech that has 8 ML versus a mech with 1 ML, it still is doing 8 times the amount of damage. Yah increased cooldown would be a penalty, but one that comes with the ability to drop a large multiplier to damage over your opponent. As it stands now, that 8 hardpoint mech still gets that damage increase, the single hardpoint mech just gets no compensation (and becomes obsolete).

There is no quirk formula because mechs have both quantitative and qualitative properies. You know, the difference between 6 hardpoints and high hardpoints =yes/no. So many factors align to make a mech gud or bad that making a formula is kinda worthless, forced even, and then 1-2 years later it would have to be fixed.