218 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Under the right circumstances, a Mech should be able to be destroyed in one well-placed shot or high damage alpha

only if its a headshot or a backshot or a well placed hit on a light mech IMO

otherwise it should be pretty much impossible to one shot a mech

[NocturnalBeast]

Khobai, on 19 November 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

only if its a headshot or a backshot or a well placed hit on a light mech IMO

otherwise it should be pretty much impossible to one shot a mech

And it is, unless you have multiple Mechs shooting at the same point on the same mech simultaneously, which is very rare. Unless players are aimbotting, or you are just stating still out in the open, it is almost impossible to one-shot kill any mechs, except for the occasional light that runs straight at you. Yes there should always be a chance for a random lucky one-shot kill, but that should be almost impossible against an undamaged Mech. I am not sure what game you are playing, but I have never been one-shot killed in this game as far as I know.

[Khobai]

Quote

I am not sure what game you are playing, but I have never been one-shot killed in this game as far as I know

ive one shotted catapults through the front CT with my 118 damage direwolf

anything above 60-65 tons usually has too much front armor to one shot though


I mean theoretically you could also do x6 CERML, x2 HLL, x1 UAC20, x1 UAC10

with a doubletap on both UACs thats a 138 damage alpha and theres no ghost heat

that could potentially one shot a 75 ton mech

but I think the only way you dont shut down is on a cold map.


yes its not really a comp build but even in quickplay I dont think 65-75 tonners should have to worry about getting one shotted through the front CT lol


I do think large lasers and medium lasers probably need to be linked for ghost heat. I expect that nerf to be coming soon. Either december or january.

Edited by Khobai, 19 November 2017 - 06:39 PM.

[adamts01]

Ed Steele, on 19 November 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Since 2012, I have seen posts here, on Reddit and on various gaming blogs claiming that MWO is dying, so I will believe it when I actually see the servers go dark.

Who cares if a server is up if you can't group up with friends in an MMO? Unless you're in the tiny minority who likes gimmicky scouting and CW, the game is essentially dead at this point.

Ed Steele, on 19 November 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Under the right circumstances, a Mech should be able to be destroyed in one well-placed shot or high damage alpha, although I agree that this should not be commonplace and having an aim-assist in game would make it more commonplace. The fact is the many players have different computers, different pings and different levels of hand-eye coordination and there will always be some players who have a more optimal combination of these things.

Aim-Assist is a terrible idea, so don't lump me in with that crowd. I also completely disagree with OHKs, even if it's a lucky shot, I don't even think cockpits should be a hitbox. All these high damage pinpoint alphas lead to is cautious and lame gameplay.

Khobai, on 19 November 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

I do think large lasers and medium lasers probably need to be linked for ghost heat. I expect that nerf to be coming soon. Either december or january.

That does need to happen if we stick to Ghost Heat, but it's a terrible system. The Raven was my 2nd mech after the Jenner, and I played those two exclusively till almost my 2nd year in the game. Aside from UACs on my 4x, the 2LL/2ML 2x is one of the few fun and semi-effective builds out there, without being a ***** and sniping or narcing. So say goodbye to that mediocre build. It's just a mess. Energy Draw or CoF would likely still allow it to function in its current state. But Ghost Heat will absolutely kill that mech. It's a **** mechanic.

Dakota1000, on 19 November 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

Why put an artificial limit cap on players who can play very effectively?

Gameplay tanked once Clans and their high alphas were introduced. Big pinpoint alphas reward cautious and boring gameplay. "Artificial" is also a silly word to use in video game world, especially in such a silly game as this. Real weapons have inherent inaccuracies, which other games accurately represent with a cone of fire. Energy Draw is no less "artificial" than any other mechanic we have, such as cannons generating as much heat as they do. The reason we should have those mechanics is to push a desired type of gameplay, and this cowardly peeking we have is far fro ideal, as far as I'm concerned. I'd back off if the game were successful, but I couldn't get a single group que match in the week that I returned, so you can't say it's doing well. Another thing to consider with almost all of those other games with a short ttk is that there's a re-spawn, revive, or repair mechanic involved. What PGI did isn't working, and game modes aside, the biggest problem I see is monster pinpoint alphas.

Edited by adamts01, 19 November 2017 - 06:55 PM.

[Bogus]

I'm not against this, though I'd be shocked if PGI actually did it since it'd piss off the tryhards. Virtually all of the MWO balance problems come down to attempting to use a diceroll based tabletop game's rules in a point-and-shoot FPS.

[Humpday]

Armored core was soo much fun, it was the first of its kinda back in the day.
No other game offered such extensive customization at the time.
Plus al the weapons where signif, unique.

[NocturnalBeast]

Khobai, on 19 November 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

ive one shotted catapults through the front CT with my 118 damage direwolf

You did not "one shot" anything, you hit your target with multiple weapons, that when combined, destroyed the target, as they should. Also, anyone dumb enough to stand in front of a Dire Wolf deserves to be "one-shot".

adamts01, on 19 November 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

Who cares if a server is up if you can't group up with friends in an MMO? Unless you're in the tiny minority who likes gimmicky scouting and CW, the game is essentially dead at this point.

CW is dead because there is no Tier-based or ELO matchmaker and because, as I have said before, there is not enough incentive to stick with one faction (unless you are a lore nerd like me), so all the best Merc teams end up on one side and casual players do not want to wait 15 minute for a match just to get stomped repeatedly.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

adamts01, on 19 November 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

Gameplay tanked once Clans and their high alphas were introduced. Big pinpoint alphas reward cautious and boring gameplay. "Artificial" is also a silly word to use in video game world, especially in such a silly game as this. Real weapons have inherent inaccuracies, which other games accurately represent with a cone of fire. Energy Draw is no less "artificial" than any other mechanic we have, such as cannons generating as much heat as they do. The reason we should have those mechanics is to push a desired type of gameplay, and this cowardly peeking we have is far fro ideal, as far as I'm concerned. I'd back off if the game were successful, but I couldn't get a single group que match in the week that I returned, so you can't say it's doing well. Another thing to consider with almost all of those other games with a short ttk is that there's a re-spawn, revive, or repair mechanic involved. What PGI did isn't working, and game modes aside, the biggest problem I see is monster pinpoint alphas.

I feel that rather than having ghost heat mechanics that limit boating or specific loadouts that the game should edit its core values to eliminate problem areas without adding on what I have called "artificial" mechanics. The issue with artificial mechanics is that they're just entirely arbitrary and unintuitive. A player fires 2 PPCs and is fine and below half heat, he fires 3 and he overheats, it seems to be illogical. Aside from that, the arbitrary nature of it leaves you with situations where you're capped to only 2 damage if you're firing PPCs but yet if you're mixing lasers you can fire 78 damage without a problem.

The game's heat values on its variety of weapons should be better balanced just standing on their own.

Also, most of those games with short time to kill actually have *no* respawn. CSGO, rainbox six seige, and the competitive modes of various other games are round based arena deathmatches with the same rule set as that in MWO. Your team has an objective to do but killing all enemies also results in a win, if you die you don't respawn until the next match.


Rather than monster pinpoint alphas as the problem, I just see general imbalance between weapon types as the problem. You have LRMs that have velocities too low to be effective in high level gameplay, you have ballistic boat builds that spend loads of tonnage on guns and ammo and also move slow but then end up with heat problems because ballistics are too hot and don't put out enough DPS to counter the high alpha builds well, you have SRM spread getting nerfed every other patch, making brawling harder and harder even though it already has significant disadvantages compared to builds that outrange them.

[adamts01]

Ed Steele, on 19 November 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

You did not "one shot" anything, you hit your target with multiple weapons, that when combined, destroyed the target, as they should. Also, anyone dumb enough to stand in front of a Dire Wolf deserves to be "one-shot".

"One shot" or "multiple weapons" with one pull of the trigger.... Whatever you want to call it, it's just semantics. It's bad for gameplay. Instead of ttk, I like ttf (time till f****d), and it doesn't have to be because someone stood in front of a Dire. Peeking over a hill and taking a shot from a cool running 65 ton Hellbringer gimps you for the match. One of those against another heavy is red CT armor, and the next is death. Or a complete loss of ST armor an about any heavy. That's why people are so timid. Maybe you like hiding and dropping monster alphas as the be all end all strategy. I find it completely dull. I miss the chaos we had just out of beta when I started and the game was thriving. Current mechs are bland and gameplay is monotonous. Everything runs smoother now, but it's a worse game.

Ed Steele, on 19 November 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

CW is dead because there is no Tier-based or ELO matchmaker and because, as I have said before, there is not enough incentive to stick with one faction (unless you are a lore nerd like me), so all the best Merc teams end up on one side and casual players do not want to wait 15 minute for a match just to get stomped repeatedly.

So CW is dead, group que is dead, we don't have enough players to support any real match maker, you can't group up with friends in an MMO..... Does the sky need to hit you on the head? This game has serious problems, needs drastic steps taken to have a hope of fixing it, and is likely beyond repair. And you still maintain the game isn't dying? Seriously?

Dakota1000, on 19 November 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

The issue with artificial mechanics is that they're just entirely arbitrary and unintuitive.

That's why I hate Ghost Heat and Dislike Power Draw. At least with cone of fire it's something that every fps player is familiar with. Overwatch doesn't use it, but you also can't stack weapons in that game and don't have destructible components like we have. Stacking pinpoint weapons is something that would have required an armor pool, which would suck. Currently, it doesn't matter if you hit CT or miss and hit ST, either way that armor is gone for a MG to finish the guy off or a 2nd alpha to secure a kill. Just like Bogus said, Mechwarrior balance problems stem from a dice role system forced in to a pinpoint damage fps. It's not working.

Dakota1000, on 19 November 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Rather than monster pinpoint alphas as the problem, I just see general imbalance between weapon types as the problem.

It all depends on why you think the game is failing. Game modes aside, I think it's because gameplay is timid and stagnant. Weapon balance won't fix that. If LRMs or ballistics could wreck as fast as pinpoint lasers then we'd see more variety in builds, but just as much hiding. Pinpoint is fine, and massive damage is fine, but pinpoint massive damage is not. Like I said earlier, if I was the minority that didn't like peeking and trading monster alphas every single match then I'd just shut up and go, but the dwindling playerbase is proof enough that what PGI has created isn't that appealing.

[Anjian]

Bogus, on 19 November 2017 - 06:45 PM, said:

I'm not against this, though I'd be shocked if PGI actually did it since it'd piss off the tryhards. Virtually all of the MWO balance problems come down to attempting to use a diceroll based tabletop game's rules in a point-and-shoot FPS.

And there is also Map voting, how it reinforces metas over others.

6 People makes Clan Long to Midrange Energy Mech.
4 People makes Shot Range IS brawlers.

The six people with Clan mechs would outvote those IS players in choosing the maps that are more favorable to their mechs. The result is that the IS players suffer.

Then the remaining IS players decide to give up and give in to using a Clan energy long and mid range mech. Which further eschews the map selection, and which again, further reinforces one type of play.

This happens even if the builds can be considered balance and even. Even if you have completely balanced mechs and weapons, the most popular builds will rule the voting which keeps putting on the maps most favorable to their type of play.

[Anjian]

Dakota1000, on 19 November 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

I feel that rather than having ghost heat mechanics that limit boating or specific loadouts that the game should edit its core values to eliminate problem areas without adding on what I have called "artificial" mechanics. The issue with artificial mechanics is that they're just entirely arbitrary and unintuitive. A player fires 2 PPCs and is fine and below half heat, he fires 3 and he overheats, it seems to be illogical. Aside from that, the arbitrary nature of it leaves you with situations where you're capped to only 2 damage if you're firing PPCs but yet if you're mixing lasers you can fire 78 damage without a problem.

The game's heat values on its variety of weapons should be better balanced just standing on their own.

Also, most of those games with short time to kill actually have *no* respawn. CSGO, rainbox six seige, and the competitive modes of various other games are round based arena deathmatches with the same rule set as that in MWO. Your team has an objective to do but killing all enemies also results in a win, if you die you don't respawn until the next match.

While some games have no respawn, they do have repairs or heals, like those first aid kits that you pick up in various points of the map.

And then there are games that have both respawns, repairs and heals.

MWO is more of a vehicular combat game rather than FPS which tends to exhibit characteristics like side strafing and map heals. A good example of a vehicular combat game that is majorly much more popular than MWO is War Thunder. This game has around 50,000 to 60,000 players online at any given moment, which can translate to over a million logins each day.

Its Arcade Battles mode has respawns. Planes get more respawns than tanks, since planes have a shorter TTK. Arcade Battles gives Tanks three respawns from your preset, planes can have as many respawns as the hanger allows. The limitation in the respawns is that you can't respawn with the plane or tank you just lost, you have to do it with another in your preset, similar to MWO's FP.

Its Realistic Battles have no to limited respawns, but the TTK is longer, as weapons don't seem as effective, and there is much more work in finding your opponent, which now loses any artificial markers over their head. In the tank play, while Arcade Battles provide auto-ranging on aim, meaning the aim will assist you in giving the right elevation for your gun, in Realistic Battles, that range assist is now gone and you have to guesstimate properly what your opponent's range is, and figure out, by experience and trial error, how high is your gun elevation. So instead of killing the enemy outright, it may take a few shots to get the range properly.

Realistic Battles also takes a clue from Battlefield by introducing tickets, which is earned during the game and is used to "purchase" a respawn.

The tank game features repairs, so any mechanical damage on the tank will get repaired. If you lose any member of your crew, you have one crew replacement, which is a recent feature addition. On top of that, the game have real armor deflection mechanics that you don't experience on MWO or any FPS game.

The plane game lets you fly back to your base for a quick repair, fuel and ammo reload, and this is whether its on Arcade mode, or Realistic or Simulation mode.

Edited by Anjian, 20 November 2017 - 02:14 AM.

[Khobai]

And adding respawn gamemodes to MWO with tickets and repairs doesnt mean getting rid of the one life gamemodes. Theyre not mutually exclusive.

Theres really no excuse for MWO to not have better gamemodes

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

You did not "one shot" anything, you hit your target with multiple weapons, that when combined, destroyed the target, as they should.

Given zero divergence, it's effectively one weapon if you strap 3 LPL on something, pull the trigger and everything hits the same pixel. That's part of the whole point of ghost heat- to prevent too many perfect-convergence weapons from easily striking the same location for maximum kill speed, or even to prevent too many spread damage weapons from compensating for spread with sheer volume.

[NocturnalBeast]

adamts01, on 19 November 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

"One shot" or "multiple weapons" with one pull of the trigger.... Whatever you want to call it, it's just semantics. It's bad for gameplay. Instead of ttk, I like ttf (time till f****d), and it doesn't have to be because someone stood in front of a Dire. Peeking over a hill and taking a shot from a cool running 65 ton Hellbringer gimps you for the match. One of those against another heavy is red CT armor, and the next is death. Or a complete loss of ST armor an about any heavy. That's why people are so timid. Maybe you like hiding and dropping monster alphas as the be all end all strategy. I find it completely dull. I miss the chaos we had just out of beta when I started and the game was thriving. Current mechs are bland and gameplay is monotonous. Everything runs smoother now, but it's a worse game.

A cool running Hellbringer is a Hellbringer that does not have enough firepower to one-shot you, so that is a bad example. People, myself included die from bad positioning more often than because of an imbalance of skill or power. In my opinion TTK is fine for IS and for Clans, if you make Mechs any more durable, then it is like you are shooting a BB gun at someone wearing a thick jacket (does nothing) and that would be way more boring to me.

adamts01, on 19 November 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

"One shot" or "multiple weapons" with one pull of the trigger.... Whatever you want to call it, it's just semantics. It's bad for gameplay. Instead of ttk, I like ttf (time till f****d), and it doesn't have to be because someone stood in front of a Dire. Peeking over a hill and taking a shot from a cool running 65 ton Hellbringer gimps you for the match. One of those against another heavy is red CT armor, and the next is death. Or a complete loss of ST armor an about any heavy. That's why people are so timid. Maybe you like hiding and dropping monster alphas as the be all end all strategy. I find it completely dull. I miss the chaos we had just out of beta when I started and the game was thriving. Current mechs are bland and gameplay is monotonous. Everything runs smoother now, but it's a worse game.


So CW is dead, group que is dead, we don't have enough players to support any real match maker, you can't group up with friends in an MMO..... Does the sky need to hit you on the head? This game has serious problems, needs drastic steps taken to have a hope of fixing it, and is likely beyond repair. And you still maintain the game isn't dying? Seriously?

I have no problem getting a game in solo or group QP on either the North American or Euro servers (I never play on Oceanic because my ping is too bad on that server) any time that I play. I agree, though that CW is not worth playing unless there is an event, because all it is are the top Merc groups in one faction stomping anyone else. I have posted numerous ideas about how to make CW better, but I am not going to repeat myself.

[adamts01]

Ed Steele, on 20 November 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

A cool running Hellbringer is a Hellbringer that does not have enough firepower to one-shot you, so that is a bad example.

I never mentioned one-shotting anyone in my Hellbringer. I specifically mentioned ttf, pay more attention.

Ed Steele, on 20 November 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

TTK is fine for IS and for Clans, if you make Mechs any more durable, then it is like you are shooting a BB gun at someone wearing a thick jacket (does nothing) and that would be way more boring to me.

So you're one of the few happy with whack-a-mech, have fun with your dying game.

Ed Steele, on 20 November 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

I have no problem getting a game in solo or group QP on either the North American or Euro servers (I never play on Oceanic because my ping is too bad on that server) any time that I play

As an Oceanic player outside of US primetime with every server selected, I have a far different experience. This server was DOA and I've dealt with 400+ ping searching US and EU from the beginning, and I still sit in group que searching for 30+ minutes in a 2-man with zero results. I've sat in a light in solo que for over an hour a year ago during my last return to the game. No **** over one hour waiting in solo que. Maybe your IP address is blessed for getting matches but from where I sit the game has been dead outside of solo que for quite some time.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

adamts01, on 21 November 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

So you're one of the few happy with whack-a-mech, have fun with your dying game.

How durable do you want these mechs to be anyway? In any battletech videos all I ever see is their components actually being oneshot usually from some LRM or PPC hitting a section. Big armored vehicles never really were something super tanky because the same big armored vehicles also usually have a big armored vehicle killing gun mounted on them, so generally its just a case of who blasts the other first.

MWO is pretty fair with its armor values, you don't generally die from being oneshotted, mechs can brawl and spread damage to all their sections if they fight to do so, precision damage rewards players by allowing them to kill enemies before those enemies can deal too much damage to them, thus increasing their time to kill while decreasing the enemy's time to kill.

I'm on the field of thinking that some neato future tech mechs built to be huge weapons platforms that generally carry 200-300% more weapon weight than armor weight would be blasting holes in their opponent, not just absorbing damage all day.


So I'm just asking now for what it is that you envision, what do you want out of the game, how much damage do you want mechs to be able to absorb before going down, how weak do you want weapons to feel against the enemy?

[NocturnalBeast]

adamts01, on 21 November 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

As an Oceanic player outside of US primetime with every server selected, I have a far different experience. This server was DOA and I've dealt with 400+ ping searching US and EU from the beginning, and I still sit in group que searching for 30+ minutes in a 2-man with zero results. I've sat in a light in solo que for over an hour a year ago during my last return to the game. No **** over one hour waiting in solo que. Maybe your IP address is blessed for getting matches but from where I sit the game has been dead outside of solo que for quite some time.

Yes, if you only queue on the Oceanic server, that is definitely where your problem is. Most Oceanic players I talk to prefer to play on the NA server because they get better ping most times and because there are more players.

[adamts01]

Dakota1000, on 21 November 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

How durable do you want these mechs to be anyway? In any battletech videos all I ever see is their components actually being oneshot usually from some LRM or PPC hitting a section. Big armored vehicles never really were something super tanky because the same big armored vehicles also usually have a big armored vehicle killing gun mounted on them, so generally its just a case of who blasts the other first.

So I'm just asking now for what it is that you envision, what do you want out of the game, how much damage do you want mechs to be able to absorb before going down, how weak do you want weapons to feel against the enemy?

I much preferred the game right out of Beta when I started playing. There were plenty of hit reg problems and CT-seeking streaks but gameplay was intense with a great mix of brawling and ranged combat and plenty of viable tactics. I hate the way this game plays out now, just a bunch of timid players taking turns trading huge alphas. I saw that shift the moment Clans came out with their massive pinpoint alphas. I don't want mechs to be any tankier, I just want an accuracy penalty for dishing out that much damage at once. Ghost Heat somewhat tackles the problem, and Energy Draw would be a decent solution, but both of those are so goofy and unintuitive. I think shots starting to spread as you fired bigger groups would fix just about every balance problem in the game. King Crabs could dump AC20 rounds all day without overheating and recoil would be the balancing factor. Or they could be chain fired for perfect accuracy. 2 LMGs from a light at range could be pinpoint but 8 LMGs at range would spread out and not instantly crit everything. No nerf needed. Lasers make the least sense, but I don't care about mech videos or how "real" laser weapons would work, this is entirely about gameplay. Since you'd have to stay exposed to deal serious dps, mechs wouldn't rely so heavily on high mounts and boating. Things have just gotten stupid. I bought the HBK-IIC-A and stacked on 6MLs and 2 Heavy Larges with 21 heat sinks and the thing fires a pinpoint and manageable 78 point alpha, out of a 50 ton mech.... Whack-a-mech and timid players is what you get with that kind of firepower. So I'm sure Ghost Heat is going to be adjusted again to eventually deal with that. Energy Draw could work, but what happens, the lasers just stop firing when you're out of energy giving you a shorter duration? Or they just don't fire? Both options suck. I say let the mech shoot all the lasers you want, but that much heat and energy is going to spread the shots accordingly, especially on such a light platform. You'd start getting players moving out from behind rocks and engaging again, assaults pushing again, brawlers being able to take some hits to get within range. It would be a good thing. Game modes are a huge problem, but gameplay would be back to where it was in the beginning, just with all the nice refinements we've gotten along the way.

Ed Steele, on 21 November 2017 - 08:44 AM, said:

Yes, if you only queue on the Oceanic server, that is definitely where your problem is. Most Oceanic players I talk to prefer to play on the NA server because they get better ping most times and because there are more players.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I quickly gave up on the Oceanic server, it was hopeless to rely on from the beginning. I play with every server checked at all times, just not during US primetime.