218 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

[Mystere]

Curccu, on 31 October 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

So remove skill from the game...


NO FU**ING WAY!

If you think shooting at pixels -- and that's not even getting into the crutch known as automatic near-instant pixel perfect convergence -- is the only skill involved in playing MWO, there is nothing more to say to you.

Edited by Mystere, 01 November 2017 - 07:27 AM.

[Verilligo]

Lily from animove, on 01 November 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

other mechwarrior games had the same pinpoint, but they didn't share the ridiculous huge heattreshold and the thereby possible alphastrikes beyond good and evil.

I could alpha strike with 6 C-ERLL in a Nova Cat without shutting down in MW4. I could do 7 with shutting down and no risk of death by heat. That was enough to basically rip a side torso off a heavy. If anything, MWO is less forgiving than MW4 with regards to heat capacity and by a significant margin.

Cooling rate, however, feels much higher in MWO. I'd argue it's not the alpha strike damage that's poisonous to the game, it's the fact you can keep alpha striking every 8-10s with pinpoint, high damage lasers. This is likely because MWO handles heatsinks way, way differently from MW4. MWO gives heat sinks the ability to increase your heat cap and also handles your cooling rate. More sinks, more cap, faster cooling. In MW4, heat sinks just reduced the amount of heat generated by the weapon fired. You still cooled at the same rate and somewhat sluggishly at that. I'd argue that this is likely the better solution, too.

[Mystere]

Hobbles v, on 01 November 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

This isnt battletech or the novels get that through your braindead skulls. This is mechwarrior

So the tagline "A BattleTech Game" is purely for decoration?

Xiphias, on 01 November 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Kill me.

Where is it legal to do so? I have a katana ready.

[Hobbles v]

Mystere, on 01 November 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

So the tagline "A BattleTech Game" is purely for decoration?

As it has been for all the mech games. The "battle tech" portion of Mechwarrior has to do with setting, aesthetic and lore (for any single player stuff or events), not the actual mechanics of how combat takes place.

[Khobai]

autoaim is @!#$. !@#$ that. lrms shouldnt even be like lrms let alone every weapon being like lrms.

I do think damage should be reduced beyond optimum range if you dont have a sensor lock though

so for example, weapons would do 100% damage upto optimum range even without a sensor lock. but between optimum and max range you would suffer a 30%-50% damage penalty if you dont have a sensor lock.

and then reduce the sensor range on most assaults and heavies so they have to rely more on lights and mediums for sensor locks.

that would make sensor range and getting locks more important. it would also make lights and mediums more important. its the first step to adding meaningful electronic warfare to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 01 November 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[Curccu]

Mystere, on 01 November 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

If you think shooting at pixels -- and that's not even getting into the crutch known as automatic near-instant pixel perfect convergence -- is the only skill involved in playing MWO, there is nothing more to say to you.

Okkei, I'll rephrase that for you also "remove a skill from the game"

Mystere, on 01 November 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

So the tagline "A BattleTech Game" is purely for decoration?

Many people thinks so, those bt lore nerds.

[CK16]

Bring it, no other shooter in recent history has automatic pinpoint accuracy. Every gun has a reticle bloom, and when firing automatically recoil bloom, to aim perfectly one must take the time to aim, in WoT your circle, in shooters the time to zoom in (thay isn't always fast or accurate either. Also no other game allows you to move at full speed and shoot for ****. Hell some don't even like ypu shoot while spriting.

We need some aiming system that is not this pinpoint snap on target BS. Its not skill to move a dot onto a spot on your screen, no matter how fast you can do it....

[Daggett]

The6thMessenger, on 31 October 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

So you think this would work? Would it be close to Battletech style combat? Would it be more or less fun?

I don't think this would work, i think it would rather alienate the majority of players.

For me the Battletech universe is not uniform in a way that everything has to follow the same mechanical rules. The only common determinator is the lore, which defines the elements every game in that universe will use. But how a game will use those elements should not be dictated by lore because every genre has different needs.

So the games themself can and should(!) differ vastly in their mechanics especially betweeen different genres. So you have the Battletech Tabletop which is turn-based and uses randomized damage allocation. And you have the Mechwarrior FPS games which always have taken the aiming skill into account for damage allocation.

Both are separated from each other and are only connected by lore. And that's a good thing because this way the universe has a wider reach. I know Tabletop-fans who don't like Mechwarrior and i also know Mechwarrior players who hate the tabletop.

So in my eyes there is no "Battletech style combat". There is "Battletech Tabletop style" and "Battletech Mechwarrior style". And both are equally valid and important. So by trying to bring Mechwarrior closer to the tabletop the risk is very high to lose the players who are here because of the shooter-like direct-fire mechanics they know from MW 1-4 while pure Tabletop-Fans will still prefer Harebrained Schemes's Battletech game or the original analog TT.

Personally i would probably quit MWO because for me aiming for components/weakspots with direct fire (and the torso twisting needed to counter this) is just way too important of a mechanic to remove. Pinpoint-damage was never a problem for any Mechwarrior game and it is not for MWO.

It's of cause debatable if the amount of alpha-strike-damage we can pinpoint into one component is too high, but that's not a problem with the mechanic itself and can be solved in many solid ways which don't involve high-risk fundamental changes.

Edit: I play MWO because it's NOT like Armored Core, Hawken, Titanfall or even MW:LL.

Edited by Daggett, 01 November 2017 - 12:44 PM.

[Trissila]

You cannot forklift Armored Core's game systems into a Mechwarrior game. They are entirely different things.

Armored Core has auto-locks for several reasons:
1. All ACs have jumpjets, and most ACs have extremely high mobility compared to 'mechs. All but the heaviest are able to change directions instantaneously while flying in the air. Jumpjets can also be used to skim the ground, allowing extremely high mobility for zipping around cover at speeds that would make light 'mechs blush. In fact, boosters are so important to Armored Core that ACs have an entire part category dedicated solely to dialing in your booster's various performances.
2. All AC weapons are projectiles that have travel time. Even the lasers.
3. All AC weapons have ammo. Even the lasers. Furthermore, energy weapons run off of a generator system that is tied in with the jumpjets and other functions.
4. Barring one piece of equipment in a few of the games -- a piece which occupies the same slot as AMS, emergency energy, and various other useful functions -- there is no ECM functionality. You can always lock an enemy AC unless they've given up MASSIVE utility for a stealth part that is of very short duration and has limited uses.
5. Armored Core does not have separate part hitboxes. A hit in the leg is the same as a hit in the torso, which is the same as a hit in the head. Some later games allow you to hit and destroy weapons, but that's it.
6. Lock-shots are not perfect. They cause your AC to automatically lead the target for its movement at the time of the shot. Good players can change direction and cause misses, even on red-locked shots.

And the big one?

7. In serious PvP play, the vast majority of weapons in any given Armored Core game are non-viable, specifically because they do not work well with the tracking system.

Movement in MWO is not even remotely the same as it is in AC, and would not make for quality gameplay with AC's targeting system.

Edited by Trissila, 01 November 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[Vonbach]

The Battletech system itself is not designed for pinpoint accuracy. Its designed for random hit locations.
If you don't want to introduce auto lock or random hit locations then triple the armor and structure.

[Khobai]

yep need triple armor/structure at the very least

[Daggett]

Vonbach, on 01 November 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

The Battletech system itself is not designed for pinpoint accuracy. Its designed for random hit locations.
If you don't want to introduce auto lock or random hit locations then triple the armor and structure.

As i wrote in my post above, it's only the Battletech Tabletop(!) system which is not designed for pinpoint accuracy. An FPS like the Mechwarrior series however is something completely different and it's a huge mistake to copy too much from the TT. In fact i think balancing would be much easier if PGI would stop to preserve the TT values for equipment weight and slots.

Pinpoint accuracy itself is not the problem as long as it's damage per alpha is not too high.

You can adress this of cause with additional armor and structure, but not by changing the core mechanics of the game through auto-lock or randomized hit-locations.

Edited by Daggett, 01 November 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[davoodoo]

El Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

I have been advocating lock based accuracy for a long time. It will certainly help to curb snap shooting and peekabooing behavior, and encourage more face to face action--just like in the novels.

You really want to avoid novels for tactical inspiration.

If i followed 40k novels i would claim space marines use no cover, terminator armor can jump and do backflips, marine squad can destroy ******* spaceship and create dow3, universally reviled as absolute abortion of the series.

Novels are pretty dramatic but given free reign ppl wont fight like in there.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 November 2017 - 03:11 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Curccu, on 01 November 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

Many people thinks so, those bt lore nerds.

Actually.....

Anything computer operated can have a manual override. That's in lore, too. No reason you can't have a "weapons free" mode where all the aiming is done by you.

Here's the thing, though....if you want to go by "lore" with the HUD and controls, you're going to open a huge kettle of fish. We SHOULD have a "floating crosshair" effect. Basically, you move the X to the target and wait for the circle to catch up with it before firing. The speed at which the circle moves is based on locations of the weapons tied to it.

You want to play with people's "skill"...that's the way to do it. Hold the crosshair on a moving target while moving yourself until the weapon lines up well enough to pull the trigger...and hope your "targeting computer" is accurate. Still gonna be slower than "weapons free" mode.

[Guillocuda]

RNG?


No.

[Mystere]

Vonbach, on 01 November 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

The Battletech system itself is not designed for pinpoint accuracy. Its designed for random hit locations.
If you don't want to introduce auto lock or random hit locations then triple the armor and structure.

That's not necessary.

Removing automatic near-instant pixel-perfect pinpoint convergence is a good start.

Edited by Mystere, 01 November 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[Anjian]

The6thMessenger, on 31 October 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

I recently played with Armored Core, and i noticed how they handled their combat. 3rd Person, lock-dependent, auto-aim with automated target lead. It does make the game feel a lot more electronic or machine-based.

So here's an idea -- what if we just made ALL weapons "auto aimed"? Computer automatically puts an adequate lead whether you shoot an AC, PPC, or Laser. The mech will AUTOMATICALLY shoot at the general direction of the target, but will require some sort of missile-lock. Think of it as turning every other weapons in the game like LRMs.

All high tech weapons in the real world would auto-aim, so we should expect realistically, that a real world mech would. This is not to mention the ability to self identify targets and threats, even prioritize which is the most dangerous.

In War Robots there is also aim locking, or better yet, aim-smoothing, but that's because you're playing on a phone sized screen, with buttons on glass, which makes it harder to see and more difficult to aim precisely. The aim AI also has a mind of its own, so you end up throwing your lock from an intended target to a non intended one which can be a wreck if you are trying to finish off a target. Do note you can turn off auto-aim if that is a problem with you. The autoaim works differently across weapons, lightning type weapons are more aggressive in their self aiming and tracking, which makes them suitable against fast dashing bots.

I would think you played the fifth series? ACV or ACVD?

In the PvP, due to the autoaim, you spend more time concentrating on your flying and dodging, as well as rushing behind the skyscrapers or hills for cover.

Trissila, on 01 November 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

You cannot forklift Armored Core's game systems into a Mechwarrior game. They are entirely different things.

Armored Core has auto-locks for several reasons:
1. All ACs have jumpjets, and most ACs have extremely high mobility compared to 'mechs. All but the heaviest are able to change directions instantaneously while flying in the air. Jumpjets can also be used to skim the ground, allowing extremely high mobility for zipping around cover at speeds that would make light 'mechs blush. In fact, boosters are so important to Armored Core that ACs have an entire part category dedicated solely to dialing in your booster's various performances.
2. All AC weapons are projectiles that have travel time. Even the lasers.
3. All AC weapons have ammo. Even the lasers. Furthermore, energy weapons run off of a generator system that is tied in with the jumpjets and other functions.
4. Barring one piece of equipment in a few of the games -- a piece which occupies the same slot as AMS, emergency energy, and various other useful functions -- there is no ECM functionality. You can always lock an enemy AC unless they've given up MASSIVE utility for a stealth part that is of very short duration and has limited uses.
5. Armored Core does not have separate part hitboxes. A hit in the leg is the same as a hit in the torso, which is the same as a hit in the head. Some later games allow you to hit and destroy weapons, but that's it.
6. Lock-shots are not perfect. They cause your AC to automatically lead the target for its movement at the time of the shot. Good players can change direction and cause misses, even on red-locked shots.

And the big one?

7. In serious PvP play, the vast majority of weapons in any given Armored Core game are non-viable, specifically because they do not work well with the tracking system.

Movement in MWO is not even remotely the same as it is in AC, and would not make for quality gameplay with AC's targeting system.

No. 7 is news to me, since I have played ACV and ACVD in PvP mode.

The main reason why AC has autolock is that its a console game, and game controllers don't have the fast precision of a mouse.

Collectively, the use of auto-aim is a quality of life decision for non mouse users.

Edited by Anjian, 01 November 2017 - 05:42 PM.

[Chaotic Entropy]

Honestly, for me that sounds ghastly, a departure from the franchise roots and not very entertaining.

[FupDup]

Mystere, on 01 November 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

If you think shooting at pixels -- and that's not even getting into the crutch known as automatic near-instant pixel perfect convergence -- is the only skill involved in playing MWO, there is nothing more to say to you.

How is literal auto-aim any less of a crutch? It literally removes player input. The weapons would do everything by themselves.

Yes there are definitely more skills than just mechanical aiming, but auto-aim on every gun simply reduces the pool of skills you need by 1.